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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old July 24th, 2013, 04:14 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
With the nearly vertical pivot pin on these initial 33 KP version hangers, expect a harsh ride.
I own and skate a couple of plates with a very similar geometry, and my experience on those is anything but harsh. I don't have any expectation that these are any different.

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So, I would not expect them to handle much differently than a DA45 plate.
Here's a thought. Howzabout you buy a pair and skate them, and then report how they handle. That'd be a nice change of pace.

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The gap between the pivot pin's hex boss face and the pivot cup end face seems so small that it looks like, in a sharp turn. it could begin to lift the plate up and start to pry the ball right out of the cup. However, because the steep action angle does not allow as much truck swing movement on the vertical plane, I guess this isn't really a likely possibility.
On my Royals, I can rock them over far enough that the ball stud contacts the side of the pivot cup restricting any further turning, but I have never popped the pivot out of the cup. I suppose under the worst of conditions, that would be possible. I think the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
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Old July 24th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #282
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I own and skate a couple of plates with a very similar geometry, and my experience on those is anything but harsh. I don't have any expectation that these are any different.

Here's a thought. Howzabout you buy a pair and skate them, and then report how they handle. That'd be a nice change of pace.

On my Royals, I can rock them over far enough that the ball stud contacts the side of the pivot cup restricting any further turning, but I have never popped the pivot out of the cup. I suppose under the worst of conditions, that would be possible. I think the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
"Howzabout" Bont gets production of the less over exaggerated turning 20 KP hangar flowing into the dealer pipeline, and I will certainly be getting & skating a set.

I look forward to being able to permanently glue mount the carbon fiber base plate in the approximate "average" optimum location, and then being able to reposition the hangers according to the type of skating I happen to be doing on any particular day.

IMO, Bont needs to be thinking about how they could offer a boot that integrates this inovative hanger mount scheme directly into the boot sole, entirely eliminating the need for plate mounting via holes and screws or with glue.

I know enough about how skate suspension geometry works to, without ever having to buy & skate a specific plate design, instead avoid those kinds of over exaggerated turning and less stable plates that I don't like.

IMO this 33 KP hangers Infinity version will join the DA45 family in that performance regard. However, the less extreme, more stable, and shallower action angle versions of the Infinity plate options do appeal to me, and I will look forward skating them once these shallower action and steeper KP hangers are available.

When more than 90% of the upward forces from the rolling surface are carried by a near vertically oriented pivot pin axis that intersects the axle's centerline directly below it, and less than 10% of force is carried by the cushions, this is the typical recipe for an extra harsh ride, whether you happen feel this difference or not.

If your rolling surface happens to be smooth enough, you are not going to feel much in the harsh ride department no matter what your suspension geometry may be. On a less than perfect rolling surface, this harsher ride result will be clearly detectable.

-Armadillo
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Last edited by Armadillo; July 29th, 2013 at 04:21 AM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:29 AM   #283
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Any idea what this might be?? I'll give ya a hint. It's NOT the 33 Infinity truck and hanger. Got it figured out?? Sure ya do. It's the 20 degree truck and hanger. Wait, what's this?? Well I'll be go to heck!! It has a vertical pivot pin just like the 33 action. Where does that leave "However, the less extreme, more stable, and shallower action angle versions of the Infinity plate options do appeal to me, and I will look forward skating them once these shallower action and steeper KP hangers are available."??

Now allow me to point out another discrepancy in your version of reality.. I have yet to find a vertical pivot pin to be harsh. Harsh is defined as "Unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses." By definition, harsh has to be sensed or it is not there...That shoots your "this is the recipe for a harsh ride, whether you happen feel this difference or not." right in the back side. If dvw or myself cannot feel it, it is NOT harsh. End of discussion... Remember this pic??

Perhaps you noted the odd background?? That was a sheet over the wood I normally use. Just to eliminate any possible doubt on your part.
Different photo session.. But rest assured, unlike you Armadillo, I have sk8ed these and a multitude of other properly mounted and optimized DA45 sk8s. They are not "harsh" by any stretch of the imagination.. Even yours..

Isn't it amazing how much actually sk8ing something can reveal vs just thinking about it?? It puts one in a much more sound technical position.... If there is a conflict, actual experience trumps theory ever time.

Richard, you stated you are going to buy a 20 Bont Infinity and gave a whole list of reasons why it would be soooo much better for you than the 33. Noted, and I will hold you to that.... I will be most interested in your review as I am sure many other members will be. .
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Last edited by Doc Sk8; July 25th, 2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Replaceed king with pivot. Thanks Dillo.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:14 AM   #284
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There's something I really like about those skates
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:08 AM   #285
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Any idea what this might be?? I'll give ya a hint. It's NOT the 33 Infinity truck and hanger. Got it figured out?? Sure ya do. It's the 20 degree truck and hanger. Wait, what's this?? Well I'll be go to heck!! It has a vertical king pin just like the 33 action. Where does that leave "However, the less extreme, more stable, and shallower action angle versions of the Infinity plate options do appeal to me, and I will look forward skating them once these shallower action and steeper KP hangers are available
."??
Doc, you must have intended to say it has a vertical PIVOT pin -- not kingpin. If this is indeed how the 20 Infinity hanger & truck are engineered then I will likely buy the 5 version initially, and borrow a pair of 20 hangers from someone else to test roll them.

This drawing indicates the truck for the 20 hanger has such an exaggerated bend & shape, significantly offsetting the plane of the cushion platform relative to the axle centerline and pulling the pivot ball closer to the kingpin, that it ends up causing the action angle to remain nearly the same as the 33 KP hanger version, at the a too steep for me ~41 level. [NOTE: action angle means the angle of the axis around which the truck swings, relative to vertical, as defined by a line through the pivot ball center and the truck KP hole center.]

This section view clearly illustrates what I have stated before, that the angle of the kingpin is less important for defining how a skate action design will actually perform. It shows how an exaggerated truck bend & shape can significantly alter the action angle, in this case shifting it in a steeper direction, and away from what a the normally shallower action angle of a less bent truck on a 20 kingpin plate action would be. The KP angle is 13 steeper than the 33 hanger, but the action angle only changes by about 5 -- nearly a 3 to 1 difference in the amount of relative change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Now allow me to point out another discrepancy in your version of reality.. I have yet to find a vertical king pin to be harsh. Harsh is defined as "Unpleasantly rough or jarring to the senses." By definition, harsh has to be sensed or it is not there...That shoots your "this is the recipe for a harsh ride, whether you happen feel this difference or not." right in the back side. If dvw or myself cannot feel it, it is NOT harsh. End of discussion...

... But rest assured, unlike you Armadillo, I have sk8ed these and a multitude of other properly mounted and optimized DA45 sk8s. They are not "harsh" by any stretch of the imagination.. Even yours..

Isn't it amazing how much actually sk8ing something can reveal vs just thinking about it?? It puts one in a much more sound technical position.... If there is a conflict, actual experience trumps theory ever time.
Once again Doc, I am assuming you meant to say vertical pivot pin not "vertical kingpin"

For someone well known to be as anti-quads for outdoor skating use as you are, I suspect you might still have a few things to discover when it comes to experiencing harsh rides on different styles of skate suspensions.

I, on the other hand, have been around the [outdoor] blocks more than a few times on a decent variety of skates rolling a wide variety of surface roughness conditions, and I assure you that the closer the AXLE is to being directly below the pivot ball, the more harsh of a ride the plate will give.

In the section view you posted it is clear that the vertical pounding that a rough surface delivers to the wheels/axles is going to be relayed mostly straight up the vertical pivot pin, which because it is vertical relative to axle, cannot convert much of these impact forces into swinging the truck platform upward against the CUSHIONS, which could help mitigate them, but only if the pivot was less directly above the axles.

As I stated in the earlier post, a good, safe, smooth rink floor might not exactly be the best place for testing the comparative ride harshness of different style plate suspensions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Richard, you stated you are going to buy a 20 Bont Infinity and gave a whole list of reasons why it would be soooo much better for you than the 33. Noted, and I will hold you to that.... I will be most interested in your review as I am sure many other members will be. .
[/B]
Now that you have exposed the true nature of the 20 Infinity as being pretty much a steep action wolf hiding under medium action sheep's clothing, I may have to revoke that promise and switch it over to buying the 5 hanger plate. At least with the 5 KP hanger design I know that no amount of truck shape distortions are going to put the action angle anywhere near to DA45 steepness levels that I avoid, and will not likely maintain an axle position located directly below the pivot ball either.

It almost seems like the plate designers, in order to keep the hanger body metal thin an hold deck height down, were wanting to avoid having a pivot cup hole that is tilted very much relative to the hanger body. Well, with the 5 KP version hanger, it is going to be a lot more difficult to maintain that goal.

-Armadillo
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Last edited by Armadillo; July 25th, 2013 at 05:01 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:59 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post

As I stated in the earlier post, a good, safe, smooth rink floor might not exactly be the best place for testing the comparative ride harshness of different style plate suspensions.

-Armadillo
Considering that 99% of skating is done on a nice smooth rink surface and that these plates have been designed to sell to the 99% of skaters who will appreciate them I don't think Bont or anybody else really cares about your BS.

If you don't like the look of them don't buy them, until you have skated them you really should not bother making an even bigger tool of yourself by commenting.
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Old July 25th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #287
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Considering that 99% of skating is done on a nice smooth rink surface and that these plates have been designed to sell to the 99% of skaters who will appreciate them I don't think Bont or anybody else really cares about your BS.

If you don't like the look of them don't buy them, until you have skated them you really should not bother making an even bigger tool of yourself by commenting.
Where did I say I didn't like the "look of them"?
Must you always put words in my mouth?

I am not the only SLF poster to discuss the harsh feel of the DA45 and other plates having axles located right below the pivot ball, so if this is merely B.S. as you suggest, then I am not the only one spreading it here.

Just because the vast majority of indoor skaters roll on surfaces too smooth for them to detect the harsher ride of a DA45 or an Infinity 33 does not mean this effect does not exist.

Since, like you Aussie's, I want most of my skate builds s to work well both indoors or outdoors, I am not impressed with either the Infinity 33 or the 22 hanger geometry for use outdoors. Obviously that is not their primary target customer though, I would suspect. At least the innovative modular design allows switching up the hangers according to whether you roll indoors or outdoors, so I cant fault them in that regard.

-Armadillo
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Old July 25th, 2013, 09:11 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Where did I say I didn't like the "look of them"?
Must you always put words in my mouth?

-Armadillo
Its a figure of of speech you fool.

You have used a lot of words to say you don't like different parts of them so why get a pissy about a figure of speech
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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #289
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Its a figure of of speech you fool.

You have used a lot of words to say you don't like different parts of them so why get a pissy about a figure of speech
In this case you simply misused it in a too broad brush stroke manner, misrepresenting my overall opinion of these plates. I have defended design points about them, I like the hanger mounting scheme, and I have praised the innovative aspects as well.

I predicted that the truck design(s) for fitting up with three different hanger KP angles would be tricky to handle, and I am not so sure that the way the 20 KP hanger jams everything so tightly together is going to turn out so well performance wise. I am still optimistic about how the 5 hangers and trucks will turn out though.

Bottom line is that I am looking forward to owning & skating a set if Infinity plates in the near future.

-Armadillo
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Old July 26th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #290
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Infinity plate update:



Price
- Infinity Plate with Titanium Kingpin US$375
- Infinity Plate with Steel Kingpin US$320
- Includes $15 Infinity Skate Tool

Production Updates:
The Infinity 33 degree plate is set for release in late August.
The Infinity 20 degree plate is set for release in October.
The Infinity 5 degree plate is set for release in November.

alx
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
Infinity plate update:



Price
- Infinity Plate with Titanium Kingpin US$375
- Infinity Plate with Steel Kingpin US$320
- Includes $15 Infinity Skate Tool

Production Updates:
The Infinity 33 degree plate is set for release in late August.
The Infinity 20 degree plate is set for release in October.
The Infinity 5 degree plate is set for release in November.

alx
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:39 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godzilla View Post
Infinity plate update:



Price
- Infinity Plate with Titanium Kingpin US$375
- Infinity Plate with Steel Kingpin US$320
- Includes $15 Infinity Skate Tool

Production Updates:
The Infinity 33 degree plate is set for release in late August.
The Infinity 20 degree plate is set for release in October.
The Infinity 5 degree plate is set for release in November.

alx
Thanks for the update
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:40 AM   #293
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How much will a plate with all three truck options set you back? Or is it $320+ for each?
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #294
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Salamanda,

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Old July 26th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Where did I say I didn't like the "look of them"?
Must you always put words in my mouth?

I am not the only SLF poster to discuss the harsh feel of the DA45 and other plates having axles located right below the pivot ball, so if this is merely B.S. as you suggest, then I am not the only one spreading it here.

Just because the vast majority of indoor skaters roll on surfaces too smooth for them to detect the harsher ride of a DA45 or an Infinity 33 does not mean this effect does not exist.

Since, like you Aussie's, I want most of my skate builds s to work well both indoors or outdoors, I am not impressed with either the Infinity 33 or the 22 hanger geometry for use outdoors. Obviously that is not their primary target customer though, I would suspect. At least the innovative modular design allows switching up the hangers according to whether you roll indoors or outdoors, so I cant fault them in that regard.

-Armadillo
I must be too simple when it comes to skating folk. I have a set of inlines for
indoor/outdoor. I can slide the frame left or right as required. And of course I change wheels ( hard to soft or as required). For my quads, I have Prolines for road (outdoors) and Boens for indoors (rink/speed/session) skating.

I don't want my skates to work for both as they have very different requirements. Do you think 'we Aussies' are poor or peculiar or something? I thought the fact that we cured cancer and invented the scram jet etc etc etc debunked the theory we were all beer swilling yobbos.

I for 1 love beer and sport, but do not have a mullet. Nor do I wear flannies (not too often anyways).
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Old July 26th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #296
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I must be too simple when it comes to skating folk. I have a set of inlines for
indoor/outdoor. I can slide the frame left or right as required. And of course I change wheels ( hard to soft or as required). For my quads, I have Prolines for road (outdoors) and Boens for indoors (rink/speed/session) skating.

I don't want my skates to work for both as they have very different requirements. Do you think 'we Aussies' are poor or peculiar or something? I thought the fact that we cured cancer and invented the scram jet etc etc etc debunked the theory we were all beer swilling yobbos.

I for 1 love beer and sport, but do not have a mullet. Nor do I wear flannies (not too often anyways).
Well I did not mean to say you could only have one set of skates.

It was more related to the idea that the far forward mount works well both indoors and outdoors, for speed skating anyway.

When I finally build a pair of session skates, I will likely do the mount in a way that is less forward and thus less optimum for outdoor skating.

I thought the love affair with flip axles down there was so everyone could use ANY of their skates, both indoors and outdoors, with just a quick wheel swap to make the transition.

-Armadillo
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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:44 PM   #297
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I for 1 love beer and sport, but do not have a mullet. Nor do I wear flannies (not too often anyways).
I feel you use the word "mullet" like it's a bad thing. What's wrong with mullets?

Just look at the famous people that have sported the beautiful and wondrous quaff:

Billy Ray Cyrus




Andre Agassi




Jaromir Jagr (quite possibly the most breathtaking mullet in Pittsburgh sports history)




Patrick Swayze




Michael Bolton




Joe Dirt







Say what you will about Bont's products, or Armadillo's inability to not make negative comments about things he has never and will never try, but please leave the mullet out of this.

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Old July 26th, 2013, 05:54 PM   #298
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Salamanda,

Thank you Alex.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 12:58 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
I feel you use the word "mullet" like it's a bad thing. What's wrong with mullets?

Just look at the famous people that have sported the beautiful and wondrous quaff:

Billy Ray Cyrus




Andre Agassi




Jaromir Jagr (quite possibly the most breathtaking mullet in Pittsburgh sports history)




Patrick Swayze




Michael Bolton




Joe Dirt







Say what you will about Bont's products, or Armadillo's inability to not make negative comments about things he has never and will never try, but please leave the mullet out of this.

had 1 myself in the 80's
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Old July 28th, 2013, 12:45 AM   #300
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Default So many options!

I remember when getting skates half a size smaller was the best thing ever...

Hmm, now I'm going to have a tough choice of getting new or transferring plates to my new Bont boots...
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