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Beginning Skaters Forum This is the place for beginning skaters to ask questions and share their stories. We would love to hear about your experiences learning to skate. No question is too dumb!

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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:45 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by FarmTruk View Post
glue mounted?
LOL, but of course. Ya can't just bolt magnets on silly.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:48 AM   #42
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LOL
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Old August 25th, 2010, 12:55 AM   #43
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are for going in straight lines.........no friction for traction whatsoever....
Well, I wasn't going to reveal all of it initially, but since you asked.
The sole is made of a super-sesitive, yet comfortable sensor membrane that senses foot pressure and provides a slight electromagnetic charge from the plates to the mag-lev (tm) hover-orbs that shifts the magnetic pole on the skate to achieve acceleration in the desired direction of travel. Friction is a thing of the past on hover skates.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 01:15 AM   #44
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Default With no friction, things might get out of hand

After a good ol' Texas Chili Cook off.....
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Old August 25th, 2010, 01:34 AM   #45
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Default Pick whatever load you prefer

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Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
You lose me at truck axis of rotation. Under what load? I balance on my front axle versus both axles equally distrubuting my weight, the angle and degree of rotation changes. Loosen your trucks way loose and measure rotation. Then tighten them as far as you can get and measure. Neither measurement would match. Change your cushions, you get a different angle under load. That's just a basic example before we get into the actual cushion compression curves.

Welcome to hyperbolic geometry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_geometry

That axis you speak of is based on, you guessed it, a triangle (cause of the pivot). But it's not an ordinary triangle.

It has to be translated with differential math. That is thanks to this dude. Who is pretty cool cause we measure the strength of magnets in "gauss" and basically developed the geometry to explain the shape and strength of magnetic fields. Talk about bad ass. You can't explain something to someone, invent the math behind it to explain it. That's pretty awesome.

On the actual topic though,

Nice to know the skins are +/- 30 from vertical though. Looks like 30 degrees to me. Wonder if the rest of the stuff is similar. Invaders, Royal's, etc.
What is the proper way to assess the action angle?
No need to obfuscate the issue by posing the "under what load" question.
Let's just pick a simple load. How about => under NO LOAD!
Gee that just might make way too much sense for this thread.
Under what amount of cushion pre-compression? How about under MINIMUM cushion compression.
No can't choose that option makes way too much sense.
With what cushions installed? How about the cushions AS SHIPPED from the factory. No No that is too easy an approach to consiider.

So, let's just ignore the plate's action angle because there are too many ways that it can be altered as the loading on the plate varies.
Yeah, don't even think about the action angle because it is always changing anyway.
Let's make the kingpin angle the important one. It is much easier to see and it doesn't fluctuate either.
Yeah, I can handle that idea. Now I really understand plate design, it is all about the kingpin angle! Yeah, right!
We sure nailed that one didn't we! He, he, he he!

-Armadillo


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Old August 25th, 2010, 01:44 AM   #46
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What is the proper way to assess the action angle?
No need to obfuscate the issue by posing the "under what load" question.
Let's just pick a simple load. How about => under NO LOAD!
Gee that just might make way too much sense for this thread.
Under what amount of cushion pre-compression? How about under MINIMUM cushion compression.
No can't choose that option makes way too much sense.

So, let's just ignore the plate's action angle because there are too many ways that it can be altered as the loading on the plate varies.

-Armadillo


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Pick a simple load. No load = 0. Pretty simple.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 02:56 AM   #47
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What is the proper way to assess the action angle?
No need to obfuscate the issue by posing the "under what load" question.
Let's just pick a simple load. How about => under NO LOAD!
Gee that just might make way too much sense for this thread.
Under what amount of cushion pre-compression? How about under MINIMUM cushion compression.
No can't choose that option makes way too much sense.
With what cushions installed? How about the cushions AS SHIPPED from the factory. No No that is too easy an approach to consiider.

So, let's just ignore the plate's action angle because there are too many ways that it can be altered as the loading on the plate varies.
Yeah, don't even think about the action angle because it is always changing anyway.
Let's make the kingpin angle the important one. It is much easier to see and it doesn't fluctuate either.
Yeah, I can handle that idea. Now I really understand plate design, it is all about the kingpin angle! Yeah, right!
We sure nailed that one didn't we! He, he, he he!

-Armadillo


-Armadillo
Sorry man. I read it again (and again) and answering the questions asked with those answers doesn't help. I'm not of the opinion it's irrelevant, I was serious when I said you lost me at what you are talking about on action angle. I've read multiple threads with that number specified in it and I'm either missing your point or it's not being conveyed as intended.

We can start very simple even. Take a plate, any plate, as stock. Put it on 4 bricks. One supporting each axle. Take a 150 pound brick. Set it square on the plate. What happens?

Anyone want to try it? I'll warn you in advance. It's disappointing.

Answer - very little. If you, no ********, measure the end of the axle from an x=0 axis and y=0 axis, you will get a slight compression of the bushing/cushion (more likely a bulge, but the entire cushion is at the same compression so it's full surface is distributing the weight). Your y axis would rise slightly. For all intensive purposes though, the answer is ~0. You could add weight till the bushings crush or the axles snap, but the result would be ~0 till that point. The x-axis is perfectly balanced in the vertical plane and would remain at zero.

So what are you referring to as the action angle and why?

It's not beginner skating, it's beginner physics.

I have yet to see a reference to moment of inertia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_Inertia

And am dying to figure out how to exploit this for fun and glory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conserv...gular_Momentum
It's not used currently cause the wheels are in the wrong plane, but it's possible to do if you used wheels that would say - press against a spring-loaded nut on the end of the axle. It very well could be exploited for speed skating is my hunch. Figures uses it, as do roller art skaters, but there is no use in the actual skate itself, just for addition of rotational speed.

Alright. Enough physics for one day. I must get back to the hover skate. Night all...
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Old August 25th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #48
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Sorry man. I read it again (and again) and answering the questions asked with those answers doesn't help. I'm not of the opinion it's irrelevant, I was serious when I said you lost me at what you are talking about on action angle. I've read multiple threads with that number specified in it and I'm either missing your point or it's not being conveyed as intended.

We can start very simple even. Take a plate, any plate, as stock. Put it on 4 bricks. One supporting each axle. Take a 150 pound brick. Set it square on the plate. What happens?

Anyone want to try it? I'll warn you in advance. It's disappointing.

Answer - very little. If you, no ********, measure the end of the axle from an x=0 axis and y=0 axis, you will get a slight compression of the bushing/cushion (more likely a bulge, but the entire cushion is at the same compression so it's full surface is distributing the weight). Your y axis would rise slightly. For all intensive purposes though, the answer is ~0. You could add weight till the bushings crush or the axles snap, but the result would be ~0 till that point. The x-axis is perfectly balanced in the vertical plane and would remain at zero.

So what are you referring to as the action angle and why?

It's not beginner skating, it's beginner physics.

I have yet to see a reference to moment of inertia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_Inertia

And am dying to figure out how to exploit this for fun and glory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conserv...gular_Momentum
It's not used currently cause the wheels are in the wrong plane, but it's possible to do if you used wheels that would say - press against a spring-loaded nut on the end of the axle. It very well could be exploited for speed skating is my hunch. Figures uses it, as do roller art skaters, but there is no use in the actual skate itself, just for addition of rotational speed.

Alright. Enough physics for one day. I must get back to the hover skate. Night all...
It is NOT physics at all ---- it is simple geometry.

You are only making it more complicated by injecting physics into the analysis.

Perhaps if you examine this Randal skateboard truck web page FAQ that explains and illustrates the "Pivot Angles" and "Lean Comparison" of the steep action line hanger/truck scheme with the shallow action line hanger/truck scheme, you will grasp why I am declaring the action angle as the one most important plate angle to care about.

My "Action Line" is Randal's "Pivot angle" (since they have a flat 180 degree truck scheme)


Lean Comparison:


Scroll down on the page to the Lean Comparison section.
WEB LINK=> http://www.randal.com/guides_faq.html

-Armadillo
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Old August 25th, 2010, 04:46 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
It is NOT physics at all ---- it is simple geometry.

Your are only making it more complicated by injecting physics into the analysis.

Perhaps if you examine this Randal skateboard truck web page FAQ that explains and illustrates the "Pivot Angles" and "Lean Comparison" of the steep action line hanger/truck scheme with the shallow action line hanger/truck scheme, you will grasp why I am declaring the action angle as the one most important plate angle to care about.

My "Action Line" is Randal's "Pivot angle" (since they have a flat 180 degree truck scheme)


Lean Comparison:


Scroll down on the page to the Lean Comparison section.
WEB LINK=> http://www.randal.com/guides_faq.html

-Armadillo
Good one Armadillo. You just PROVED it is the king pin angle that is most important. The illustration shows 2 schemes where the pivot pin is 90 degrees to the king pin. The difference in the 2 schemes is the King Pin angle. It then shows which turn more, in this case the 50 degree King Pin. You just torpedoed what you have been arguing for months.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 05:17 AM   #50
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Good one Armadillo. You just PROVED it is the king pin angle that is most important. The illustration shows 2 schemes where the pivot pin is 90 degrees to the king pin. The difference in the 2 schemes is the King Pin angle. It then shows which turn more, in this case the 50 degree King Pin. You just torpedoed what you have been arguing for months.
Sorry, you are missing the point. Both angles shift by the same amount, as of course they must, unless you put a bend in the straight flat truck.

At least Randal is not so foolish to label their PIC "Kingpin Angles", so why don't you take a hint from them. The truck motion does not relate to the kingpin angle. What do you suppose the word "PIVOT" refers to? Perhaps it refers to the swing motion of the truck. Look up definition of the word PIVOT. Read the FAQ - it does not focus on the kingpin angle.

It is change in the swing motion of the truck that the resulting blue/red wheel positions show are altered as the action angle (pivot angle) goes steeper or shallower. Too bad it is not a video.

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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #51
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What I see is a truck with a 50 degree king pin angle out turning a truck with a 35 degree king pin angle. (imagine that) That seems to be in line with the general skatelog belief that 45 degree plates turn more than 10-15 degree plates. Now, don't argue the point with me, argue with the nice diagrams.

Or, even better, get out your protractor and tell us how the diagrams are wrong and the 50 degrees is really 48 and the 35 is really 34.7, or something equally irrelevant.

Or keep trying to tell us how king pin angle is not important.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 01:06 PM   #52
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Default Kingpin angle

Pivot angle should not be confused with kingpin angle, they are separate. In the illustration, the kingpin is always at a 90 degree angle from the pivot axis, not so on all skates.
Thats why its an illustration, trying to convey pivot angle, nothing more. The other angles may be accurate on the illustration, but it is for example or teaching. Now my invaders are very close to this, but my competitors and sunlites are not even close. Good illustration Armadillo. I like the lean comparison illustration the best as it show results of different pivot angles.
Earlier I did say "static" meaning no load in stating a beginning or starting point from factories to publish so skaters would be able to better pick out a plate or skate. The illustration is correct for conveying the meaning of pivot angle as we all know that trucks are not shaped quite like that. Truck's cushion cups "tip in" to match the kingpin angle so that the cushions are mounted properly, most apparent on 10 to 15 degree trucks.
All the angles are important, it's just that the one we need to look at the most is the pivot angle because it makes changes in turn radius like in the the lean comparison illustration. We can readily change this angle, the others take more effort. It is to us, as caster is to automobiles.
The truck moves from two attachment points, where the kingpin goes through the truck between the cushions and where the truck pivot pin is in the truck. These two points of attachment secure the truck to the plate and lets the truck move from these two points, the line from one point to the other is the pivot axis. Comparing the pivot axis to a plane, whatever plane, vertical or horizontal gives it an angle. As Armadillo stated a long while back it is usually from a vertical plane 90 degree to the plates deck.

I didn't think of skates last night when I slept......slept in late too!
Now when can we discuss inlines....????
Now see what happens when you ask a simple question...its fun though!!!
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Old August 25th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #53
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I'm going to let this take a divergent path.

Without going, omg, it's wrong because....

Can anyone apply the diagram that Arm presented to roller skates and tell what is different and why?

I'll start off with the easy one. The roller skater's feet are not positioned at 90 degrees to the plate as we skate. The plate and skater are positioned the same direction.

I'll give a clue to the second. Skateboarders do not generate primary momentum by pushing through any axis.

The longboard idea is relevant, but it has been adapted for different use and different....umm. PHYSICS. What that picture shows would make a god awful roller skate. You can't tell me physics isn't relevant. Unless you are at the snack bar. Which, granted, it might not be as relevant especially with a green apple slushie, but assuming you wish to go anywhere or measure anything related to performance, it is a required factor.

Incidentally, the word "force" is used 5 times on that page.
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Old August 25th, 2010, 02:40 PM   #54
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Important to recognize that The Randal Diagrams you show there are Long board trucks and while it might seem that Skateboard trucks are skateboard trucks Yadda, Yadda, Yadda . . The truth is that Longboard trucks although appearing relatively similar to conventional skateboard trucks or even rollerskate trucks/plates are in fact quite different. Better to look at some old Bennetts, trackers or even ACS (who actually made rollerskate trucks at some point) trucks; the angles and pivot points are quite different and more relevent to a rollerskate discussion!
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Old August 26th, 2010, 02:18 AM   #55
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Default Some of you are NOT getting the pictures.

The fundamental geometry considerations of how the steep versus shallow action angles (pivot angles) affect rate of wheel turning for the same amount of plate tilt (board tilt) are essentially identical for the hanger/truck mechanisms of both quad skates and longboards.
The fact that the Randal's illustrations show this principle with a flat (180 degree) truck does not change how the basic concept works.

The BLUE versus RED variation in how much axle turn results from the same amount of plate tilt EXACTLY MATCHES what I have been saying for months.

The diagrams clearly show that for the same amount of plate tilt, the steeper action angle (YELLOW cushions; marked as 50 degrees from horizontal by Randal - BUT really 40 degrees from vertical in quad terminology) produces more wheel turn (BLUE) than the shallower action angle (GRAY cushions marked as 35 degrees from horizontal by Randal - BUT really 55 degrees from vertical in quad terminology) produces (RED).

I am sorry that the PICs I chose measured & labeled the angles relative to horizontal instead of the degrees "from vertical" Quad Way of measuring, as this added one more confusion factor.

So, now do you get the pictures?
The steeper LOWER number action angle of 40 degrees from vertical (yellow cushions PIC) gives more wheel turn.
The shallower HIGHER number action angle of 55 degrees from vertical (gray cushions PIC) gives less wheel turn.

All the other issues being raised are MINOR compared to this primary concept of quad skate geometry.

The Kingpin angle merely follows along, according to the shape of the truck (bend angle, etc.) and according to the orientation of the action/pivot angles. Thus if the kingpin angle shifts either way, while the action angle stays the same, there will be minimal detectable change in rate of wheel turn versus plate tilt. Kingpin angles merely ARE RELATED to action angles (pivot angles), and by themselves, they don't influence the action very much.

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Old August 26th, 2010, 03:15 AM   #56
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I'm going back to making crystal meth.....It's less dangerous than playing with you guyz.......
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Old August 26th, 2010, 11:28 AM   #57
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I'm going back to making crystal meth.....It's less dangerous than playing with you guyz.......
LOL. It is easier. And it's chemistry, so you are learning either way.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 11:35 AM   #58
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Kingpin angles merely ARE RELATED to action angles (pivot angles), and by themselves, they don't influence the action very much.

-Armadillo
I get what you are saying! (finally). You can indeed measure pivot angles. Take everything off and measure the tilt axis from a plane.

Right?

I told ya that you confused me using the words action angle together. I and I think many others were) assuming you mean the actual path the axles go under load. You can always graph that too, but your load would need to be constant and it would only be accurate for that particular setup.

Can you see how Action might be interpreted as misleading though? Especially talking about Dual Action and how plates, cushions, mounting and yes, Kingpin angle would affect the steepness of the curve.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 04:09 PM   #59
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The fundamental geometry considerations of how the steep versus shallow action angles (pivot angles) affect rate of wheel turning for the same amount of plate tilt (board tilt) are essentially identical for the hanger/truck mechanisms of both quad skates and longboards.
The fact that the Randal's illustrations show this principle with a flat (180 degree) truck does not change how the basic concept works.
The Mechanisim of a basic skateboard truck and a roller skate truck are similar and use the same "Basic Concept", BUT the primary difference between Randals trucks and a standard Skateboard and/ or roller skate truck is that on a Randal/Long board truck the kingpin actually pierces or disects the vector between the pivot and the Axle; not only that but it does so at a 90 degeree angle. On a standard Skate truck the Kingpin is routed through a hanger and it's vector would not intersect with the Pivot pin/ axle vector until it was well out of the actual body of the truck itself! The result is that the longboard truck mainly rotates in a plane more or less parrallel to that of the kingpin where as on a rollerskate or standard skateboard the truck not only tilts but also (and more significantly) rotates around the kingpin as it tilts in a much more dramatic way.

I am not saying that your original point was incorrect, just that the diagrams you used to make that point were misleading and not appropriate to the discussion.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 02:23 AM   #60
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Default These diagrams are fully appropriate

Quote:
Originally Posted by masmojo View Post
The Mechanisim of a basic skateboard truck and a roller skate truck are similar and use the same "Basic Concept", BUT the primary difference between Randals trucks and a standard Skateboard and/ or roller skate truck is that on a Randal/Long board truck the kingpin actually pierces or disects the vector between the pivot and the Axle; not only that but it does so at a 90 degeree angle. On a standard Skate truck the Kingpin is routed through a hanger and it's vector would not intersect with the Pivot pin/ axle vector until it was well out of the actual body of the truck itself! The result is that the longboard truck mainly rotates in a plane more or less parrallel to that of the kingpin where as on a rollerskate or standard skateboard the truck not only tilts but also (and more significantly) rotates around the kingpin as it tilts in a much more dramatic way.

I am not saying that your original point was incorrect, just that the diagrams you used to make that point were misleading and not appropriate to the discussion.
The diagram showing the two different degrees of axle turn from the same amount of board tilt (translate plate tilt) is perfectly fine.
The two diagrams comparing steep action and shallow action are also fine,, except for how the angles are marked relative to horizontal, instead of vertical,
Just because the longboard truck is flat (no bend=>180 degrees) does not mean it can't illustrate the same principles of turning action as a bent truck PIC would. In fact it is easier to see what happens when the pivot axis points straight to the center of the truck's kingpin hole. With skates you have to imagine this line and it doesn't follow the neck of the pivot pin. Trickier to visualize.

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