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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:32 AM   #81
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Oh i'm sure i did 100 things wrong actually. I kind of dont want to bug them too much, as it was only my first time i'm actually impressed i even attempted it.. Not doing any other full 360 moves this one is kind of new groupd in a lot of ways for me. I didnt know about the free leg coming up and in, i was almost keeping it straight down the whole time..

Here's a vid where I kinda fell. I realize i'm not straight when i'm jumping/spinning but i haven't mastered the trick to keep it straight yet.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1y7kz1lhgU

Gal wasn't there this week with the 220's. But i'm hoping the artistic guy shows tomorrow with those Edea's (fly) in size 10, a little big for me, but i can at least 'try' them to see what they feel like..
not too bad an attempt to be honest just keep doing it till it gets comfortable and hey maybe you will like the fly boot. you never know what one would like or dislike to be honest.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 12:06 PM   #82
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not too bad an attempt to be honest just keep doing it till it gets comfortable and hey maybe you will like the fly boot. you never know what one would like or dislike to be honest.

Thanks for the words of encouragement! I was really really nervous before i tried it.. I know i'm leaning too foward once i start the jump, but there was 2-3 that felt "almost there" that unfortunately we weren't recording.. but I think fatigue started to set in, as i'm seeing a trending pattern when i do something right one or two times i keep pushing and slowly by slowly i start screwing up more and more and more and getting further away from what i was once able to do I probably work myself too hard...

Like i said, the fact that i can 'attempt it' without crashing and burning every single try means i'll keep practicing it over and over again and it really made me happy i was almost able to get all the way around!

I'll let ya know how i feel about the fly if he brings it tomorrow and lets me use it for more than 5 minutes (I only skated his Risport for about 2-3 minutes cuz i didnt want to keep him at the rink as he was ready to leave).
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Old September 25th, 2012, 07:44 AM   #83
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I practiced a little more on the lutz tonight.. as I was doing it i was trying to think in another thread some comparing it to a mapes, granted i do my napes very very open with my left foot sideways, its almost like a waltz jump off a toe stop.. So towards the end I started to think of a mapes as i practicing.. But what happened was i did more kind of a salchow I would plant my right foot and instad of immediately jumping up and trying to turn in the air (as i had been doing and bending and falling and not making it all the way around) I kind of give a little pivot off the right toe stop, turning probably 1/8th or little more just before launching off it.. I was considering this a 'cheat' and am not super proud of it, but I'm wondering if its okay to use this tactic to just get better at all the little peices.. I still cant land it correctly, but i was almost able to keep my right foot down...

Ultimately after a few more botched landings later my right foot's arch got REALLY sore after one landing, I think i'm just not used to that heel, and every step was immediatley painful, i think i brushed up in the arch area so i was done for the night...

But i wonder if that cheat is acceptable to learn with or should i try not to do that, and go back to crash and burn without the little toestop pivot?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 04:30 AM   #84
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I practiced a little more on the lutz tonight.. as I was doing it i was trying to think in another thread some comparing it to a mapes, granted i do my napes very very open with my left foot sideways, its almost like a waltz jump off a toe stop.. So towards the end I started to think of a mapes as i practicing.. But what happened was i did more kind of a salchow I would plant my right foot and instad of immediately jumping up and trying to turn in the air (as i had been doing and bending and falling and not making it all the way around) I kind of give a little pivot off the right toe stop, turning probably 1/8th or little more just before launching off it.. I was considering this a 'cheat' and am not super proud of it, but I'm wondering if its okay to use this tactic to just get better at all the little peices.. I still cant land it correctly, but i was almost able to keep my right foot down...

Ultimately after a few more botched landings later my right foot's arch got REALLY sore after one landing, I think i'm just not used to that heel, and every step was immediatley painful, i think i brushed up in the arch area so i was done for the night...

But i wonder if that cheat is acceptable to learn with or should i try not to do that, and go back to crash and burn without the little toestop pivot?
I kinda liked your lutz.

The only 2 things I would change are:

1) in the video your right arm is completely pointing behind you. This is sort of blocking the rotation. I would put the right arm more to the side. You want that L with your arms, left arm in front, right arm to side.

2) just a touch of a spin on the right toe-stop. It should be a hair quicker.

The only problem with using "cheats" to learn something is then you are learning bad habits. Trust me...I know that one first hand! :-)

But to be honest, it looks pretty damn good. I think you will be hitting it pretty quick.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 06:49 AM   #85
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I kinda liked your lutz.

The only 2 things I would change are:

1) in the video your right arm is completely pointing behind you. This is sort of blocking the rotation. I would put the right arm more to the side. You want that L with your arms, left arm in front, right arm to side.

2) just a touch of a spin on the right toe-stop. It should be a hair quicker.

The only problem with using "cheats" to learn something is then you are learning bad habits. Trust me...I know that one first hand! :-)

But to be honest, it looks pretty damn good. I think you will be hitting it pretty quick.

Oh thanks! i just saw that video that was posted on another thread of the italian guys teaching and it looked like they had the arm directly in front and behind, but usually I do use an L shape (thats how josh showed me to do the mapes anyways). That might make things easier for me actually.

Yeah I'm not sure how much i was turning on my toestop when i started to feel like it was a cheat, it might have been an acceptable amount, cuz as i started to learn i was trying not to rotate untill i left the ground.. It's sad cuz i felt like my first 5-6 attempts were waaaay better than the last 10 tries (which is what we filmed) where i was falling alot, couldn't keep my back straight, and ultimately, me probably being afriad to leap straight up which feels kind of like leaning backwards when you're leaning forward.

Thanks for the words of encouragement! my 2nd day of practicing it left me completely exhausted and my left leg is still extremely sore today, (as well as the arch in my right foot).

I really need to get my boot delimmea figured out soon. I have the money for the skate now, i'm just kind of waisting time hoping a magical decision will come to me.. The artistisc skater never showed with thsoe size 10 edea's... I wonder how much heavier a riedell 336 will be than the edea's or risports..
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Old September 26th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #86
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Jinx an L shape is good and correct, most skaters use it or did anyhow lol. on the lutz dont turn till you toe off, if you take too long to get in the air it will be almost like a salchow, on the sal most skaters use the toe today and take off even though its suppose to be an edge takeoff. just dont spin on the toestop go straight up and the arms will take you around along with the free leg.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #87
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Jinx an L shape is good and correct, most skaters use it or did anyhow lol. on the lutz dont turn till you toe off, if you take too long to get in the air it will be almost like a salchow, on the sal most skaters use the toe today and take off even though its suppose to be an edge takeoff. just dont spin on the toestop go straight up and the arms will take you around along with the free leg.

So should kind of twist from my hips up , like mostly shoulders and arms? I feel like I may be putting too much emphasis on my spin. As i started to attempt 360's in my skates while standing still I found that it took ALL of my energy to get about 85% of the way around, but every once in a while i'd jump and get 100% around and feel like it only took 50% of the energy, it was those times i feel like maybe my back was completely straight, (i still struggle to keep it straight!), so with this new jump i fear i'm leaning over and its cuasing me to put so much energy into the spin that I'm not focusing on the jump or straight or other important aspects...

I'm not giving up, i just sometimes feel like there's XX number of things i need to keep in my head right before the jump, i used to kind of be that way with the waltz jump and mapes (even if i'm not great at those yet) but now those jumps are a little closer to reactionary and not quite as much "Pre-thought" about all the little things that need to happen going into it.

I'm sitting here with my leg still sore just wanting to get back to the rink and try again! But I dont want to push it, becuase of my sloppiness I need the full strength of my leg becuase for some reason i end up landing on my left leg and not my right yet (though with my little cheat where I was slightly turning on the toes stop I found my right leg hitting the floor before the left, but I wouldn't quite call it a landing, since i was relying on my left am to save me from the floor 100% of the time (left arm sore too!)

Should i be lifting my left knee kind of upwards as I toe off? I had asked kylie and she said just kind of sweep it around the right foot, but I'm not sure whats better for my learning level right now.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #88
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Have you tried off skates practice?

I'd start standing on two feet about shoulder width apart, arm in L position, jump up, arms up and in (like you are scooping up leaves) and then around, check and land on two feet. Concentrate on keeping everything upright and hands up.

You want to get it to where you can jump up, do a 360, check the rotation and land upright on two feet (knees bent.)

Then you take the whole thing to the rink and do the same two-foot-jump drill on skates. It's not easy to land on two feet if you aren't jumping straight.

From there you can start introducing a leg wrap.

I dunno...just might be something you could incorporate into your workouts on your off-skate days. I know from personal experience that I DON"T do enough off-skate drills.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #89
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Have you tried off skates practice?

I'd start standing on two feet about shoulder width apart, arm in L position, jump up, arms up and in (like you are scooping up leaves) and then around, check and land on two feet. Concentrate on keeping everything upright and hands up.

You want to get it to where you can jump up, do a 360, check the rotation and land upright on two feet (knees bent.)

Then you take the whole thing to the rink and do the same two-foot-jump drill on skates. It's not easy to land on two feet if you aren't jumping straight.

From there you can start introducing a leg wrap.

I dunno...just might be something you could incorporate into your workouts on your off-skate days. I know from personal experience that I DON"T do enough off-skate drills.
You are right i need to do more of this, i just have this wierd thing where when i try these things off my skates i end up actually flailing all over the place even more, i cant explain it.. Maybe becuase my feet are so much lighter they are gliding away from me cuasing some kind of off center spin and fall over and tumble?

I'll try exactly as you've posted to get my 360's a little more solid.... Is it normal to start to get more and more sloppy as you get tired?
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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:15 AM   #90
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Jinx,
Just remember: speed is your friend, good and proper posture, good entry. All of those things will make a jump easier. That being said, not bad for just learning. Not bad at all.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #91
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Jinx,
I almost forgot to mention. Go over every part of the jump in your mind over and over. you can build neuron connections in your brain just by practicing in your mind then when you decide to physically do it, your mental practice takes over. It really does help.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #92
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Jim is right about speed also to get around. practice more off skates on a soft surface, grass or rug or hardwood if possible, not concrete if possible.
Kyle knows also, bring the leg around like she said, dont rotate the hips first it should all be one smooth motion, this will come in time and with confidence.

i am curious are you jumping as a lefty or righty?

watch the videos and Kyle if possible you can pick up more from watching things done and copying them. harder to explain, especially for me lol.

Jim explains things much better.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #93
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.... Is it normal to start to get more and more sloppy as you get tired?

YES!!! :-)

I have to remind myself to slow down when I start getting tired. Just 2 weeks ago I was like, "OK, one more." And that last one was the one that caused me to tweak my knee again. When you are fatigued is when you can make mistakes and get injured.

Listen to your body. You know when you can push a little more and when you need to call it a day.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM   #94
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Funny thing that as I got older I realize that to be so very true. When I was in my late teens and through my 20's, I had tons of energy and strength and I really never got tired. I would lose energy and then I would recover immediately. Now it is very different. I have to learn to rest and not push like I did. What a bummer it is to get old...



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YES!!! :-)

I have to remind myself to slow down when I start getting tired. Just 2 weeks ago I was like, "OK, one more." And that last one was the one that caused me to tweak my knee again. When you are fatigued is when you can make mistakes and get injured.

Listen to your body. You know when you can push a little more and when you need to call it a day.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #95
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Thanks guys...I went back at it again a few times tonight even tho my left leg wasn't fully rested (a little sore still, becuase every time I was landing on monday i kept landing on my left leg and nearly falling over and tensing up cuasing alot of muscle soreness). Anyways today i was doing better at making it around.. I found i dont need to learn as far forard as i see the girls do in practice, And I felt like i was getting around a little better this time, Not getting it completely mind you, but still almost landing on my right foot...

Biggest problem now? Each landing was PAINFUL on my arch of my right foot, I cant really understand why, but it was starting to hurt my arch quite a bit... I'm hoping this is something a new boot will help..

I took a few videos but it was SO dark you cant really seee much I'll post em below, 6 second clips, they almost look EXACTLY identical cuz i'm getting a tiny bit more consistent.. What helped here? I'm not sure.. More energy? had time to rest? Maybe just not leaning as much forward therefore requiring more of a 'snap back' with my back ? I felt a little better and was almost getting all the way around now and not cheating (or at least not thinking i was cheating?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9Jdzb1tR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owCAoBmm3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y49DQq4vSH8



Off topic real quick, i'm gonna give the artistic guy one more try this saturday to show up with the edea's if he doesnt, I think i'm just gonna pull the trigger on some Riedell 336's But i'm a little confused with riedell sizing so please chime in if you have any feedback..

My feet fit into my Bont Speed skates which are a 41EUR size.. I believe they are 8 1/2's probably, But when i measure my feet with a ruler and then compare them to riedells recommended sizes it comes out with reidell recommendeding a size 9. Does that seem about right? are riedells about a 1/2 size bigger than other skates? My right foot with a not very thick cotton sock comes out to 26.6CM (or 266MM) And my left foot which is a tad longer comes out ats 26.6CM (or 268MM) on this site http://www.skates.com/Riedell-Boot-S...t-s/477858.htm it recommensd 9 for my right foot and 9 1/2 for my left foot.. seems a little absurd considering I can fit into 8 1/2 shoes but i'll see what you guys think... On the Riedell Sizing stick at the rink I was coming out at about 8 on the right foot and 8 1/2 on the left foot, Is this stick just for speed skates? ACtually HERE's pictures of my feet in them.



and for width i feel like i'm probably going to be okay with a Medium (bout 9 1/2 with a tape measure, maybe a tad over on my right foot).. I wouldn't mind a TINY Wiggle room for my toes as i'm one of those guys to gets claustrophobic feet if my toes cannot move.. And i usually feel like my feet a tiny bit wider than most regular people but not so sure they are 'WIDE' by riedells standards.. Whatever these boots i currently have are they fit pretty nicely width wise.. no pressure or squeezing like those size 10 Risports i tried (they were size 10! and they still made my foot feel like it was in a narrow inline skate to a degree).. But i've heard recent riedells are MORE narrowly cut than older ones and this boot i currently have has to be at least 5 if not 10 or 15 years old...


So whats the thoughts on this guys?

Thanks again for all your helps!
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Old September 28th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #96
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Jinx, the tape tells the tale. I recommend a size 8 1/2, medium width. Here is the link to all you need to know about Riedell, high top fitting. http://www.roller.riedellskates.com/support.aspx
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Old September 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #97
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Thanks guys...I went back at it again a few times tonight even tho my left leg wasn't fully rested (a little sore still, becuase every time I was landing on monday i kept landing on my left leg and nearly falling over and tensing up cuasing alot of muscle soreness). Anyways today i was doing better at making it around.. I found i dont need to learn as far forard as i see the girls do in practice, And I felt like i was getting around a little better this time, Not getting it completely mind you, but still almost landing on my right foot...

Biggest problem now? Each landing was PAINFUL on my arch of my right foot, I cant really understand why, but it was starting to hurt my arch quite a bit... I'm hoping this is something a new boot will help..

I took a few videos but it was SO dark you cant really seee much I'll post em below, 6 second clips, they almost look EXACTLY identical cuz i'm getting a tiny bit more consistent.. What helped here? I'm not sure.. More energy? had time to rest? Maybe just not leaning as much forward therefore requiring more of a 'snap back' with my back ? I felt a little better and was almost getting all the way around now and not cheating (or at least not thinking i was cheating?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9Jdzb1tR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owCAoBmm3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y49DQq4vSH8



Off topic real quick, i'm gonna give the artistic guy one more try this saturday to show up with the edea's if he doesnt, I think i'm just gonna pull the trigger on some Riedell 336's But i'm a little confused with riedell sizing so please chime in if you have any feedback..

My feet fit into my Bont Speed skates which are a 41EUR size.. I believe they are 8 1/2's probably, But when i measure my feet with a ruler and then compare them to riedells recommended sizes it comes out with reidell recommendeding a size 9. Does that seem about right? are riedells about a 1/2 size bigger than other skates? My right foot with a not very thick cotton sock comes out to 26.6CM (or 266MM) And my left foot which is a tad longer comes out ats 26.6CM (or 268MM) on this site http://www.skates.com/Riedell-Boot-S...t-s/477858.htm it recommensd 9 for my right foot and 9 1/2 for my left foot.. seems a little absurd considering I can fit into 8 1/2 shoes but i'll see what you guys think... On the Riedell Sizing stick at the rink I was coming out at about 8 on the right foot and 8 1/2 on the left foot, Is this stick just for speed skates? ACtually HERE's pictures of my feet in them.


and for width i feel like i'm probably going to be okay with a Medium (bout 9 1/2 with a tape measure, maybe a tad over on my right foot).. I wouldn't mind a TINY Wiggle room for my toes as i'm one of those guys to gets claustrophobic feet if my toes cannot move.. And i usually feel like my feet a tiny bit wider than most regular people but not so sure they are 'WIDE' by riedells standards.. Whatever these boots i currently have are they fit pretty nicely width wise.. no pressure or squeezing like those size 10 Risports i tried (they were size 10! and they still made my foot feel like it was in a narrow inline skate to a degree).. But i've heard recent riedells are MORE narrowly cut than older ones and this boot i currently have has to be at least 5 if not 10 or 15 years old...


So whats the thoughts on this guys?

Thanks again for all your helps!

I usually wear a 9 or 9.5 shoe, a 9.5 or 10 running shoe. My Harlicks are a size 11. You sort of have to go with the manufacturers chart because there is no consistency in sizes. They might as well just give it a name. "let's see, 266MM, you are a size Bob."

The other thing that is helpful and counter intuitive...wear thin socks. I wear a thin cotton or cashmere dress sock ( I buy them clearance because they wear out quick.) The synthetic fibers just don't feel as comfortable to me and thick socks "deaden" the feel. With my speed skates I don't even wear socks. Just an EZFit ankle thing.

Just curious...for your arch pain...I had a similar problem with my speed skates. I would get really bad arch pain after 15 minutes or so. Someone suggested this to me and it worked: Completely loosen the laces on the boot. I mean, completely so your foot just slips in. I even unlace the top two holes on the speed boot. Lift your heel up and down a few times to get it in right, then lace the whole thing up. It actually worked. I have no idea why, but it eliminated the arch pain. And just the other day I was rushing to get my speed skates on and I didn't do that and I once again had arch pain. Maybe it would work with your art boots.

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Old September 28th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #98
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I usually wear a 9 or 9.5 shoe, a 9.5 or 10 running shoe. My Harlicks are a size 11. You sort of have to go with the manufacturers chart because there is no consistency in sizes. They might as well just give it a name. "let's see, 266MM, you are a size Bob."

The other thing that is helpful and counter intuitive...wear thin socks. I wear a thin cotton or cashmere dress sock ( I buy them clearance because they wear out quick.) The synthetic fibers just don't feel as comfortable to me and thick socks "deaden" the feel. With my speed skates I don't even wear socks. Just an EZFit ankle thing.

Just curious...for your arch pain...I had a similar problem with my speed skates. I would get really bad arch pain after 15 minutes or so. Someone suggested this to me and it worked: Completely loosen the laces on the boot. I mean, completely so your foot just slips in. I even unlace the top two holes on the speed boot. Lift your heel up and down a few times to get it in right, then lace the whole thing up. It actually worked. I have no idea why, but it eliminated the arch pain. And just the other day I was rushing to get my speed skates on and I didn't do that and I once again had arch pain. Maybe it would work with your art boots.
I'll give it a try... Let me stress though the pain only occurs when i'm landing this particular new jump (lutz) I know i'm not bending my knee properly for landing becuase i'm barely getting around in time and not having enough time to get that knee bent, and i think that is making my landing harder and just cuasing stress on my foot arch...
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Old September 28th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #99
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Jinx not sure what to tell you on the size, maybe an 8 or 8 1/2 i would think, call riedell and talk to a rep.

the lutz is looking better, keep it up you will get there
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Old September 28th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #100
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Jinx, the tape tells the tale. I recommend a size 8 1/2, medium width. Here is the link to all you need to know about Riedell, high top fitting. http://www.roller.riedellskates.com/support.aspx
I getcha.. I just called riedell very friendly and answered all my questions.. Apparently the 336 is NOT kept in stock so it needs to be made from order. She did she I could order 2 and return whichever size didnt fit that well, but then she recommended I order 2 297's if i wanted to do sizing (i'm thinking one in 8.5 and one in 9) and I can try them on and find out which fits better then send them both back and use that sizing for my 336. She said they hae the 297's in stock right now.

She also said that the 297 and 336 are made on the same last (the 820C she called it) I also asked her the weight she told me that assuming both skates are a size 9 the 297 weighs 4.7 (for both skates i believe) and the 336 weighs 4.8, curiously it is just a hair heavier than the 297. And the 336 was 'stiffer' than the 297 she said.. I wonder how much more? Hopefuly not anymore to induce any discomfort or pain!

I realize i'll be out the shipping if i do this (hopefully it won't be too much??) since i'll have to pay it there and back, but it might be the best option to be really sure what is going to fit okay.... I'm just worried that the 8.5 might be a tad small as my left toe with sock on is just a hair under 8.5 and i really dont know if i would want to bottom out in the tip of the boot (unless this stick doesnt translate to exact fit but more so just the size of boot to order).


Also anyone reading this, Is there a roll line to riedell size chart I should be referencing for plate fit, I know that i'm going to get the Energy steel, and i believe this plate comes in 5 incriments instead of 10 like lower end roll-lines, so i want to make sure i get a really good fitting plate for freestyle jumps and such..
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