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Old August 6th, 2017, 11:28 PM   #1
fierocious1
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Default Washers and cups.

I have been experimenting lately with small OD 3/8 bore plastic washers on my DA45s. Two issues cropped up and one good benefit. With the small OD washers, I had less ramp up of resistance during deep pushes. The trade off is cushion life on the left front truck. If my kingpin's smooth shoulder(non-threaded area) was longer and I used tube spacers to keep the threads away from the cushions, that problem most likely would go away.
I cut some plastic washer down(3/8) with an od that matched the tapered lower cushion small end, then cut a 45 degree bevel on the edge. Installed these before the session today, then ran them for the full session. Results are that the wider washers, no cups, would still ramp up resistance at the end of the stroke on low fast skating. This promoted traction loss with wheels and suspension that had previously been working well.
So more work is in store to find a happy medium. Maybe a new style washer is in order that lets the cushions give without damaging them. Got to make several changes and try to keep low ramp up and retain cushion life and also not have the cushions/washers hit the trucks during extreme truck turning angles.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 7th, 2017 at 12:42 AM.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 07:26 AM   #2
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Would drilling the cushion out a few mm help.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
With the small OD washers, I had less ramp up of resistance during deep pushes. The trade off is cushion life on the left front truck.
The nylon washers flex. That's why I stopped using them. It seemed counter productive though I have no data or experience to back it up. In your scenario, the flex might be an advantage. I can't stick with a single setup long enough to tell the difference.

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I cut some plastic washer down(3/8) with an od that matched the tapered lower cushion small end, then cut a 45 degree bevel on the edge.
The cushion diameter changes as you compress them. I use a 3/4" od aluminum washer that fits about right for the cones. It looks a little large until you crank down on the king pin nut. I could machine it down, but why bother.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 05:54 PM   #4
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The nylon washers flex. That's why I stopped using them. It seemed counter productive though I have no data or experience to back it up. In your scenario, the flex might be an advantage. I can't stick with a single setup long enough to tell the difference.

Yes the thin ones I started with flexed a little, but what I saw later was that the inside bore would try to ride up over the smaller washer. Once I made the new ones that went away. But the rub in the pocket is still present, just a clearance issue. I may try to mill the pocket later this week.

The cushion diameter changes as you compress them. I use a 3/4" od aluminum washer that fits about right for the cones. It looks a little large until you crank down on the king pin nut. I could machine it down, but why bother.
With the caster and clearance issue, I had to use smaller washers. However the cushion with out cups takes away ramp up. Too small a washer and the cushion tries to go over the washer, too large and you get a start of ramp up but still less than a cup would produce.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 21st, 2017 at 10:19 PM.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 10:56 PM   #5
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I still suggest greasing rhe action between the truck and the cushions wider areas, also grease the shaft of the kingpin and in inside if the cones, this allows the cushion to deflect with minimal abrsion.

85A is usually the most versatile when talking about urethanes AFAIK. alsi the yellow has been shown a few times to have poor consistency in duros, which would lead me to believe its lifespan is also poor.

It doesnt take much grease. Also the cushions should have ribs on the larger side which will help retain the grease where it should be.

If you ran 85A it should snap back better as its compression set would be less over time and its firmer, which should also take advantage of a better snapback. This only applies if the cushion can return to its correct restiong position. A greased suspension does just that.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:30 PM   #6
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I still suggest greasing rhe action between the truck and the cushions wider areas, also grease the shaft of the kingpin and in inside if the cones, this allows the cushion to deflect with minimal abrsion.

85A is usually the most versatile when talking about urethanes AFAIK. alsi the yellow has been shown a few times to have poor consistency in duros, which would lead me to believe its lifespan is also poor.

It doesnt take much grease. Also the cushions should have ribs on the larger side which will help retain the grease where it should be.

If you ran 85A it should snap back better as its compression set would be less over time and its firmer, which should also take advantage of a better snapback. This only applies if the cushion can return to its correct restiong position. A greased suspension does just that.
The yellows have about a year lifespan, I run them fairly loose so they don't take much of a set anyway. Ive ran all the colors but yellows have the shortest lifespan in my cases. Only place I can use purples is on top of the stack. Anywhere else and the suspension is too stiff, the action changes at the end of the stroke and grip changes.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:51 PM   #7
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I skate on boens.
I have yellow barrel and cones installed not tight.
A boen has retainers that are locked with a shoulder on the kp .So the cushions dont move.

You have removed the retainers and added another cushion .
Mort and i are right.
Only i say its a design flaw as well.
Stop over thinking it....I thought you where channeling Dilli......Rip
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 01:38 AM   #8
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I skate on boens.
I have yellow barrel and cones installed not tight.
A boen has retainers that are locked with a shoulder on the kp .So the cushions dont move.

You have removed the retainers and added another cushion .
Mort and i are right.
Only i say its a design flaw as well.
Stop over thinking it....I thought you where channeling Dilli......Rip
You don't skate my skates... your opinion. I don't skate boens, never have. Sounds like they bind up pretty good. There is only one other person that has skated my skates. I have no idea what he thinks, but binding isn't what I think he would say. Sure I added another cushion, but I don't skates that don't turn either. In the past there have been other skates that use longer cushions and were for speed. But I don't especially think boens are all that. From others I have heard they aren't that good, won't turn. Maybe the engineer messed up and sold them anyway..
Mort says they need lube, I never said they didn't but you and he aren't here to see the truck hit the cushion and pinch it either. Pinching and lube are two entirely different things. The cushions sides are not supposed to hit the truck, simple enough, I know that, said it all along. You say flaw... but you can't test your stuffed up plate and make changes I can while experimenting either.
The part I left out is that all this is after removing shim to slow the steering down just a bit more, that closes the gap up even more. I can put shim in anytime I want to and speed the steering up, end of issue. but I'm testing, again. Can your boen do that? NOPE. Boen design flaw... possibly. You aren't experimenting either.
I bring a camera to a skate and people sometimes misinterpret the video. I bring parts, that is not all there is to it. If the cushion is torn up in one area, facing the truck pocket:
1. it didn't rotate
2. it wore in an arc on the small end.
3. the socket has a clearance issue when trying to adjust the compression
4. the cushion distorts in every direction but only hits on the truck side.

At this caster angle I need clearance, put a shim in it, the issue will go away. The only "flaw" is not clearancing the trucks first.

I just need not discuss with people that aren't into trying new things. That's the real issue. Maybe Armadillo was right, keep all the info to himself and sell custom skates..
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Old August 7th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #9
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I run blue cones top and bottom, the top cones bottom sits on the hanger, the lower cone sits on a titanium washer, I stack three 1/2mm plastic washers on the tops, ultimate flexibility, minimum weight.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 09:10 PM   #10
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Default Shaped washers

Is where I am going with this. Shaped to work with the compression/deformation of the cushions rather than restict cushion movement. I have been running an hourglass cushion configuration for years for low ramp up, but am now seeing considerable differences just by using larger od flat washers. So Im thinking of a radiused sided washer. Radium against the small cone end. Below the cone, below the truck. Just one more thing to do.... might need to be angled instead.... testing to follow soon....
Have to knock the dust off the plate analyzer...

Edit: I pulled the beveled washers off and cut the lip down to about 2/3 the OD of the little end of the cone. Reinstalled and most of the freedom of movement is back. I also found two more busted yellow cushions in the process. These yellows are just falling apart...

Last edited by fierocious1; August 8th, 2017 at 01:27 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 04:42 AM   #11
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Are you still using the double cone cushions between the plate and the truck?

Cushion life can be extended if the cushions you are using have the small ribs on the wider area(where it should contact the truck yoke) if you use suspension grease (valvoline synpower is what I use.) Where the cushions meet the truck yoke. This greatly cuts down on the rub that occurs when leaning the plate over.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #12
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Are you still using the double cone cushions between the plate and the truck?

Cushion life can be extended if the cushions you are using have the small ribs on the wider area(where it should contact the truck yoke) if you use suspension grease (valvoline synpower is what I use.) Where the cushions meet the truck yoke. This greatly cuts down on the rub that occurs when leaning the plate over.
I'm not having a rubbing friction problem, more of a crushing, splitting cushion problem. The area around the cone is limiting the action a little bit. When the DA 45 plate steering is slowed down, it takes a little more input(more lean), just enough that clearance around the cone is limited. If I were using standard cushion cups below the truck(the small ones), the cups would hit the trucks. Some of my older trucks have scrapes and wear where the cups made contact. So I have replaced the cups with washers, they were a bit small and I made some that were too large.. Trying to find the happy medium now. Possibly a radius-ed on one side, washer will work. That way I have compression, but the cushion is allowed to deform and roll onto the the edge of the washer but not compress so much to split it. If the washer is flat, it is compressed earlier because the edge of the washer is already loaded from the cushion and leads to ramp up and crushing of the cushion. Got some made up to test for Sunday. The feel of the trucks being forced over in my hands is fine but now to see on my feet.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 09:53 PM   #13
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Got a picture of where the cushion damage is?

Doesn't your kingpins also have a lot of thread where the ID of the cushion sits?

I can't help but think that a dab of lube would help.

Also taking a file and rounding off the edge of all the washers. Ideally they would be the same OD as the tapered portion of the cone with a 45 deg rounded bevel on their edges, least in theory it sounds good.
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