S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > General Interest Skating Forums > Main Skating Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Main Skating Forum General discussions about all types of skating, including how to skate, places to skate, skating events, skating equipment, and any topic that does not fall under one of our other skating forums.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 12th, 2020, 06:19 AM   #1
FlailingLlama
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
Default Why aren't more people using Adam's Full Ceramic bearings?

They are slightly cheaper than Bones Swiss Ceramics, but they are full ceramic, Silicone Nitride inner, and outer race, and balls.

Unless they are super low tolerance, wouldn't these bearings be the absolute best?

Thanks
FlailingLlama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2020, 12:46 PM   #2
ursle
Street Skater
 
ursle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 4,477
Default

Silicon Nitride balls are great, races not so much and the expense, bones have replacement parts.
ursle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 12th, 2020, 03:55 PM   #3
FlailingLlama
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Silicon Nitride balls are great, races not so much and the expense, bones have replacement parts.
What makes the races not a good idea? Would a more crack resistant ceramic be better for the races?
FlailingLlama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2020, 04:55 AM   #4
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlailingLlama View Post
What makes the races not a good idea? Would a more crack resistant ceramic be better for the races?
Ceramics are mostly a gimmick. I have never seen a load test that displays any significant advantages in running torque.

Ceramic may be hard, but it's also brittle, and can fracture.

People think that they are some great idea to use and do not understand why they exist in the first place.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2020, 01:45 PM   #5
zebra1922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 435
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Ceramics are mostly a gimmick. I have never seen a load test that displays any significant advantages in running torque.

Ceramic may be hard, but it's also brittle, and can fracture.

People think that they are some great idea to use and do not understand why they exist in the first place.
Genuine question, why do they exist? I know little about bearings apart from the ABEC rating not necessarily being a good measure for skating quality.

What problem is ceramic trying to solve? Does it help skaters?
zebra1922 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2020, 04:33 PM   #6
ursle
Street Skater
 
ursle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 4,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra1922 View Post
Genuine question, why do they exist? I know little about bearings apart from the ABEC rating not necessarily being a good measure for skating quality.

What problem is ceramic trying to solve? Does it help skaters?
Bones ceramics last forever, the balls anyway, parts are available from bones, and they're silent or whisper quiet, and if you skate outdoors, you don't have to worry about water, steel bearings will rust up a few minutes after getting wet, while you're skating.

Full ceramics are pricey and as mort mentioned, the races are brittle, half the performance is the speed creme bones sells, 2-3 drops per bearing after cleaning and rinsing with 92% isopropyl and zoom.
ursle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:29 AM   #7
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebra1922 View Post
Genuine question, why do they exist? I know little about bearings apart from the ABEC rating not necessarily being a good measure for skating quality.

What problem is ceramic trying to solve? Does it help skaters?
Ceramic doesnt solve any problems for skaters. It creates them

Ceramic bearings exist because some environmental conditions prevent metals from being used, or because corrosive conditions dont offer long service life.

Bones speed cream is nothing more than over priced clipper oil, and it's totally snake oil, IMO. There are NO testing results that prove otherwise. No lubricity testing nothing.

There is virtually nothing more slippery than today's synthetic engine oils. Which are(usually) around 5 to 9$ a QUART. You tell me how one can justify charging the same price for HALF A FLUID OUNCE.

https://bonesbearings.com/bonesr-speed-creamr-lubricant

Say it with me, snake.. oil...


ABEC ratings cover dimensional accuracy. The higher the rating the more "perfect" to the spec the bearing calls for.

While many companies will have better raceway specs, and more spherical balls, along with better runout, the higher numbers are typically for bearings that need extreme accuracy such as a cnc machine which will be attempting to manufacture parts to an accuracy of .0001" these bearings usually have tighter internal clearances and thus no radial and axial play, they generate more heat too.

If you actually get an "abec 9" bearing, it would be expensive.

For refrence, an Italy made SKF EMQ(Electric Motor Quality) ABEC3 C2(tighter than standard clearance) bearing is about 20 bucks from a parts retailer.

the thing is , many bearing will fall around the ABEC3 scale just from being made on equipment that can make ABEC9 precision parts. Also, nearly no one out there has the equipment sophisticated enough to disprove those ratings. Most are pure BS.

Would ABEC rating matter? I dont know.

You would have to find 2 sets of bearings, made to the exact same internal clearances, use the same cages, use the same lube, the "ABEC1" would need to fail being any better than its minimal specs, meaning it could only be able to pass as an ABEC1, not 3, and the "ABEC9" set would need to be legit in its precision to truely compare them.

Even then, skating it would likely not tell ya anything, and a sophisticated machine would be needed to test the starting and running torque of those bearings to see any difference.

Wheels make a much larger influence. Good quality high rebound urethane will feel faster than low quality urethane which has less liveliness to it.

Crude example would be a Jax pink ball vs a super high bounce ball.

Urethane also has a lifespan, and it only gets worse the more it's used. Inline skates are a perfect example. The exact same set of wheels will perform differently after 100 miles is put on them due to depreciation of characteristics. Same thing with a brand new tennis ball vs one that's been beaten on for 12 hours of tennis.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #8
ursle
Street Skater
 
ursle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 4,477
Default

There's no grey area concerning Bones Speed Creme, it solidifies when cool and turns back into a liquid when it warms, perfect for skate bearings, synthetic oil simply drips out of the bearing, then it's an unlubricated bearing, you might as well use grease rather than straight synthetic, the grease will be there after thousands of hours, slow, but the wheels will go.

Ceramic balls are perfect for skate bearings, they never wear out, they don't rust, at some point one must consult their common sense.
ursle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM   #9
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
There's no grey area concerning Bones Speed Creme, it solidifies when cool and turns back into a liquid when it warms, perfect for skate bearings, synthetic oil simply drips out of the bearing, then it's an unlubricated bearing, you might as well use grease rather than straight synthetic, the grease will be there after thousands of hours, slow, but the wheels will go.

Ceramic balls are perfect for skate bearings, they never wear out, they don't rust, at some point one must consult their common sense.
Common sense indeed... which you don't seem to have...

Ceramic does not like NVH, which includes slides, ya know like plows, T stops, hockey stops, jumping or other impacts, cracks in sidewalks etc, and its failure rate is higher than steel, significantly. If someone only skates softly, and wants to not have any thought that they have any potential waste in the maximum roll, then they could speand a lot of money chasing 1% or less.

For the cost of those way overpriced bones swiss ceramics, I could get another set of the best wheels on earth, made by Scott Corey, in any color or hardness I want. Ya know, something that actually matters.

Oh, and speed cream, I have a bottle at my house someone gave me, brand new from the rink, won it as a prize, it's never close to a solid, its clipper oil, Its thickness is about that, feels gritty in comparison to even non synthetic engine oil. Why? Because it lacks good refinement of quality lubricants.

I mean. If you have test specs from a lubricity tester, I'd love to see the video, the wear scar produced, etc. I'll be happy to send my bottle off, it will never get used up. Maybe on my beard trimmer, as that's all it's good for.

Funny you say synthetic will drip out when others, myself included, have no problems with it 🤔 . Using oil, one should relube every 20 hours of use or so, too much free spin is a clear sign the bearings are dry.

Also the cages used in bearings will influence lubrication life. Phenolic retainers found in most skate bearings holds onto oils, so it doesnt just "drip out". That combined with 2RS, non contact seals, and you have a winning combination. The outer race is sealed and the inner is non contact, containing the lubricants. Even when being aerosolized from high vibrations included during stopping maneuvers.

There are skaters with 30+ years of use on FAFNIR bearings, steel balls. I doubt a ceramic will last that long under skating abuse.

Take the gamble, I wont.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 06:49 AM   #10
BigFoot
Senior Member
 
BigFoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 131
Default

…nothing better than a good bearing discussion, I say. Always been a hot topic in SLF. And prolly as old as skating itself. I love it.

First, I want to thank FlailingLlama for alerting us, or at least me, to the big price drop of a full-ceramic skate bearing. I knew it would happen. It just took longer than I expected. It has been 35 years since they were invented and finally the price is competitive with a top rated steel bearing.

I am a supporter of full-ceramic bearings. (Some might call me an athletic supporter, haha.) But I see them as the future of skate bearings. The main reason is they roll better. The contact points - balls and races - are smoother than steel and therefore they create less friction and micro vibration. I have read claims of 10%, 20%, even 30% less friction. Whatever the true percentage, no one disputes their lower resistance or drag. You can see the reason for this by looking at a side-by-side magnification of their surfaces. The ceramic surface looks much smoother.

They are also harder and last longer. One claim I have read is a 50% reduction in wear rate. I don’ts doubt this percentage because of my personal experience with long-wearing ceramic/steel hybrid bearings.

For what it’s worth, for the last 14 months I have been running full-ceramic bearings on my right front axel. They were expensive, but I wanted to test them for susceptibility to cracking/failure before I spent the big bucks for all 16 bearings. So far, no problems. The full-ceramic bearings are silky smooth. When I rock back and forth between axles, it is noticeable. They feel nicer than the hybrid, and much better than steel bearings. No, I don’t have “sensitive feet” and it’s not a delusion, the silky feeling is real.
BigFoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 09:46 AM   #11
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,722
Default

Are they radially and axially tight? Which would be to keep shock lower. But would add drag/friction. Are they sealed or shielded in any way?

If they are HIP type their hardness and fracture resistance is better than GPS.

Not sure what grade or manufacturing process the balls that WIB uses for the ceramics produced for bones.

What duro wheels do you use and where do you skate?


The worst thing we do to quad skate bearings is hockey stopping. Ironically, the bad abuse to the bearings comes from indoor use. Harder wheels, hard floors, lateral loading , and lots of NVH.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 01:25 PM   #12
ursle
Street Skater
 
ursle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 4,477
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Common sense indeed... which you don't seem to have...

Ceramic does not like NVH, which includes slides, ya know like plows, T stops, hockey stops, jumping or other impacts, cracks in sidewalks etc, and its failure rate is higher than steel, significantly. If someone only skates softly, and wants to not have any thought that they have any potential waste in the maximum roll, then they could spe()nd a lot of money chasing 1% or less.

In your opinion, which honestly Trom, doesn't include a fact, or a fact hidden by misunderstanding.

If you don't want ceramics don't buy them, but stop the stupid, others shouldn't be influenced by your prejudice, (preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience)


For the cost of those way overpriced bones swiss ceramics, I could get another set of the best wheels on earth, made by Scott Corey, in any color or hardness I want. Ya know, something that actually matters.

The Wheels will wear out quickly The bearings will last forever, it's your money to waste.


Oh, and speed cream, I have a bottle at my house someone gave me, brand new from the rink, won it as a prize, it's never close to a solid, its clipper oil, Its thickness is about that, feels gritty in comparison to even non synthetic engine oil. Why? Because it lacks good refinement of quality lubricants.

I mean. If you have test specs from a lubricity tester, I'd love to see the video, the wear scar produced, etc. I'll be happy to send my bottle off, it will never get used up. Maybe on my beard trimmer, as that's all it's good for.

Funny you say synthetic will drip out when others, myself included, have no problems with it �� . Using oil, one should relube every 20 hours of use or so, too much free spin is a clear sign the bearings are dry.

Well, on your say so... I took the oil pan off my 2019 Rav4 Hybrid and lo and behold, 2 minutes later the engine seized, I don't think I believe that synthetic oil stays in place and doesn't get flung by centrifugal force or drip to earth with gravity, but if on Eart2 it works for you, don't wake up, you'll be disappointed.


Also the cages used in bearings will influence lubrication life. Phenolic retainers found in most skate bearings holds onto oils, so it doesn(')t just "drip out". That combined with 2RS, non contact seals, and you have a winning combination. The outer race is sealed and the inner is non contact, containing the lubricants. Even when being aerosolized from high vibrations included during stopping maneuvers.

Right, it only takes 20 days before a relube, which actually would be necessary per use, which points out the beauty of speed creme, it solidifies into a wax, then it warms up into an oil, it's not magic it's science, magic on the other hand won't keep the synthetic oil on the bearings, but if one uses bones speed creme, there's no magic, it's science.


There are skaters with 30+ years of use on FAFNIR bearings, steel balls. I doubt a ceramic will last that long under skating abuse.

Take the gamble, I won(')t.
Your doubts are as valid as using two thick pair of cotton socks to skate because your boots are to large, or mounting skate plates opposite to the correct way, the way that provides balance and makes skating easy and pleasurable.

Ceramic balls last forever, steel rusts.



Anyway, Trom aside.

I use steel races and ceramic balls, just like I drive a Hybrid car, I love the electric but don't want to be limited to 200 miles between charges, and 1/3 of that in the cold, I'm jonesing for full electric, but it's not ready.
I'd love a full ceramic, a mini full ceramic would be the bee's knees, combine Roll-line Heliums with ceramic mini bearings, I'd buy.

Wonder what they would weigh?

Need more input about the full ceramics and Bigfoot makes a great point.

My apologies to the op for the drama, but, one of the best skate products is speed creme and another is bones ceramic bearings, a third is roll-line wheels), letting someone confuse reality for whatever reason is detrimental to skating, nobody wants to suffer a fool, and the skatelog certainly is in the sights of one.

Again, everyone needs to use their common sense, yes, bearing discussions are the gravy of skating, if you want performance, look at present day racing, skateboard downhillers all use ceramic bearings and speed creme, artistic skaters use what their coach taught them to use, and their coach was taught by their coach and the learning goes back to seperate ball bearings, 100 year old technology.

Roller speed skaters I hope use the fastest bearings, but, they were coached and need to upgrade from steel, hopefully they do.

Last edited by ursle; Today at 04:13 PM.
ursle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:24 PM   #13
FlailingLlama
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
Default

If it makes any difference, I talked to Adam for while, and he doesn't recommend his full ceramics for big jumps, parks, or aggressive moves.

He recommends oiling the bearings like normal, this extends service intervals because it slows the progression of debris into the races, although if you indoor speed skate, you don't oil them at all. (just clean as needed)

I'm still curious, though, if we are all thinking of ceramic in an old way, like the very first ceramic break rotors, or other things that were quite brittle, and susceptible to nvh.

It would be nice to have some torture testing done, not just on the ceramic balls (which when made properly, are significantly stronger under impacts) but the races too, and under bumpy lateral loads. I would imagine the overall design of the bearing rather than its material would contribute to toughness.

I've just opened up Bones' nicest bearings to take a look (Super Swiss 6, and Swiss Ceramics) and while the overall design of the Swiss Ceramic is nothing special (compared to other very cheap bearings I've opened) The Super Swiss 6 has remarkably deep and wide (twice as wide as 7 ball channels), inner and outer race channels for the balls to roll in.

Without any testing done, its seems like these deep channels would hold up to substantially higher lateral loads and abuse. Larger balls (they are HEAVY especially compared to the 5/32" ceramic balls) also help spread loads over more surface area.

I wouldn't think a 6 ball full ceramic is a good idea, because of the thinner race material due to the deeper channels, but a hybrid (steel inner and outer race) with 6 Silicon Nidride balls should be an excellent bearing.

Not so much because of rolling resistance, which in my remedial tests, the Silicone Nitride balls make zero difference (roll out tests down automotive ramps I brought in to the rink) or in feel (just as smooth as any other bearing I've skated) but due to weight, having the big balls in ceramic makes a fairly big weight difference.

I'm trying to get Bones to produce a ceramic ball Swiss 6, but they don't want to. I tried contacting WIB Bearings, and they said they only distribute to Skate One in the USA (Bones Bearings are part of Skate One, or Powell Peralta)

So I'm stuck purchasing the Swiss 6 bearings (I do really like the apparent inner and outer race quality from the Swiss Bones, even if it doesn't actually make a performance difference, good machining is just satisfying) and installing the Silicon Nitride balls myself. (still need to measure the steel balls to confirm proper size)
FlailingLlama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 04:34 PM   #14
FlailingLlama
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Your doubts are as valid as using two thick pair of cotton socks to skate because your boots are to large, or mounting skate plates opposite to the correct way, the way that provides balance and makes skating easy and pleasurable.

Ceramic balls last forever, steel rusts.



Anyway, Trom aside.

I use steel races and ceramic balls, just like I drive a Hybrid car, I love the electric but don't want to be limited to 200 miles between charges, and 1/3 of that in the cold, I'm jonesing for full electric, but it's not ready.
I'd love a full ceramic, a mini full ceramic would be the bee's knees, combine Roll-line Heliums with ceramic mini bearings, I'd buy.

Wonder what they would weigh?

Need more input about the full ceramics and Bigfoot makes a great point.

My apologies to the op for the drama, but, one of the best skate products is speed creme and another is bones ceramic bearings, a third is roll-line wheels), letting someone confuse reality for whatever reason is detrimental to skating, nobody wants to suffer a fool, and the skatelog certainly is in the sights of one.

Again, everyone needs to use their common sense, yes, bearing discussions are the gravy of skating, if you want performance, look at present day racing, skateboard downhillers all use ceramic bearings and speed creme, artistic skaters use what their coach taught them to use, and their coach was taught by their coach and the learning goes back to seperate ball bearings, 100 year old technology.

Roller speed skaters I hope use the fastest bearings, but, they were coached and need to upgrade from steel, hopefully they do.
Careful though, just because everyone uses them doesn't really mean anything. We really need a precise rolling resistance machine, that can measure the minute friction differences between different small bearings.

Hard data would be really nice for the community.

My suspicion is that bearings don't make a difference even for the fastest downhill skaters. Just too many variables to isolate a bearings actual contribution. As others have said, wheel composition and design has a far greater impact on skating dynamics.

I just like fooling around with bearings, not sure why.

Also, on the topic of Bones Speed cream... maybe they changed their formulation? I bought mine from Derby Warehouse two months ago (could be old or new stock, not sure) and it's 100% a light red oil. I haven't seen it in a grease form. Stays a liquid the whole time.
FlailingLlama is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.