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Old May 19th, 2011, 08:27 AM   #21
rufusprime99
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Default Neutrality ROCKS

The Pivot Pin Neutral Point is a success!

After setting up my pivots to the neutral position and cranking down the king pin nut to 2.5 threads showing, start with the nylock flush with the top of the king pin and tighten 2.5 revolutions, and then shortening the pivot 2/6ths of a turn, I went skating. After I was already on the freeway for the 30 mile drive, I realized, I did not bring TOOL ONE. Did not have my Reflex tool or my pivot pin wrenches. So, the Pivot Pin Neutral method was going to have a trial by fire.

After having been playing around with yellow cushions for the last few sessions, the blue setup felt a bit loose, but not over loose. But everything felt even. The skates behaved the same. Both ankles got a little worked by the blue setup, but my feet did not hurt. Feet and ankles hurting after only a bit of skating is my sign that things are too loose and my feet and ankles are working too hard to maintain stability. This setting is fine.

Not too much grip at Holiday, but I did detect what I felt was a bit of loss of traction, which indicates a pin a little short. This will be easier to detect on the grippier floor at Fountain Valley tommorow. I will leave the action alone, but I will try lengthening the pins 1/6, maybe 2. In fact, I think I will lengthen the pins the 2/6ths. This will put it back to the neutral point. I may as well get a benchmark feel for what the neutral point is like paired with my favorite king pin nut position. It will either be dead on, or just a bit long. Good info for me to have for the next time I take things apart.

Like I had hoped, setting the pins to the neutral point leaves them very close to where they SHOULD be. Then just a little fine tuning.

I did not resort to the squeeze test at all, and in deference to the ladies who could not "get a grip" on that method (), I won't. I will depend on the neutral point and just fine tune from there.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 08:55 PM   #22
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So as I said in this thread, I figured I'd give this method a go, as I am one of those who can't 'get a grip' so to speak

I'm using the DA45 Skins. I've followed the instructions and found that my 'neutral' point is just 1 full turn on the pivot adjustment. Any longer and the truck doesn't centre over the cushion (Blue barrel / conical, FWIW). I've now cranked down 2 turns. As Rufus found that taking the 2/6ths off to be short, I think I'm going to leave them at this 'neutral' point and give them a skate. Will report back after practice on Monday.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 07:42 AM   #23
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Default Chalk One Up for Laziness

I was going to lengthen my pivot pin 2/6ths before Fountain Valley, but blew it off and just went. I did have my tools this time though. The skates felt fine as I was skating, but I quickly needed a restroom break. As I went to the sink to wash, I noticed someone had dropped water on the floor, so I decided I might as well take advantage of it and clean my wheels. There were of course, tell tale tire tracks through it already, and it wasn't like I spilled the water on the floor I was just taking advantage of what the universe had presented me with. (Yeah, yeah, yeah, so what if I am usually the one to dump the water. This night, it wasn't MY doing.) So, with newly cleaned wheels, and being already warmed up, I went out and tore up the floor. PERFECTION. I knew they were stable from last night, and with the just cleaned wheels, I did some hard cutting. No studder when leaned hard over. So that left my final setup as, 2.5 turns on the king pin nut and 2 1/6 turns long on the pivot pin.

On a side note, my Reflex tool did get some use. A noob rec skater on R3's finally gave in and let me put some blue gummies on her trucks. I had her convinced before, but then she hedged. Got em on, she skated a bit, adjusted again, and she skated some more. I could see she was liking them, so I decided to mess with her. I skated up and said casually, "you know, if you don't like them, I'll be happy to put your old cushions on." She fairly blurted out, NO, I'M NOT GOING BACK. The look on her face was priceless. Kind of a shocked, how dare you suggest that look.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 03:31 AM   #24
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It took a little bit of reading and re-reading plus that video. But it finally clicked, so did the neutral pivot pin location. Though I still want to mess with that, but almost across the board it made adjusting way easier. Now just to test them out. I'm already on blues so I'm wondering where my skating will set, I'm just hoping now that I've properly adjusted my skates, my right foot will stop going to sleep due to the pivot/king pin.

However, I found one issue when adjusting my plates. It's a bit off topic but I could use some advice. My left, back king pin is jammed in my plate. I have no idea how this happened (I've adjusted them before) but it's damn well set in there. Eventually I want to switch out my jump plate with washers, but if I can't get that sucker out, there is no doing that.

Any suggestions? It's okay for skating now (lock nut is down tight). But I know I'm going to have to deal with it eventually.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 08:04 AM   #25
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Seems like the neutral point method is about as "paint by the numbers" as you can get. Once it is set, put your conical on and set the king pin nut. At that point you should be right or long. Then just methodically shorten until you dial out the one foot glide instability. In fact, I think leaving it long and shortening may be the preferred method, and this is why. It is easier to detect a long pin, skating wise. A one foot glide with instability is easier to detect than the short pin studder. I need a grippy floor, and preferably a grippy floor that I am familiar with to detect the studder. With the neutral point, you KNOW you right on or long. Adjusting from long to right is opposite of what I recommended before, because I noted that you cannot really tell how long a long pin is. With the neutral point, depending on how much you crank down the action, you know it may be long, but not very long, and all the pivots are the same. If you detect some wiggle, just shorten the pivot to tune it out.

On the king pin, if I had that problem, I would loosen the lock nut, get a rag to cover the non-threaded part of the king pin and use a vise-grip to help twist the king pin out. If the lock nut won't move either, same procedure, but you will need a friend to hold the skate, while you try and loosen both the lock nut and king pin at the same time.

PS: The next time you have all your cushions off, compare your king pin lengths on one skate, front and back, to those on the other skate. If any seem long, try and get it set the same as the rest. A mismatched king pin length is a real PITA, especially if are counting rotations of the king pin nut to try and keep things uniform. Throws it all off.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 01:48 PM   #26
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So THAT'S the big hub bub about pivot pin adjustments. I've read a ton about how you need to adjust your pivot pin (to help lessen the stress on the king pin) but never read why it was so huge when it comes to skating. So, if the pin is too long, it studders, if it's too short, it wobbles? Am I getting that right? It might solve the problem on a few issues I was having with skating. I did notice my left skate was adjusted way off.

Thanks for the advice, I believe I'll try doing that! Look into getting some grease as well, sheese.

I was worried about that too since I can't screw the king pin ALL the way. It's really close, maybe less than a quarter of an inch away from being all the way in (that's what she said). So yeah, when tightening down my action there is maybe an extra thread more visible than the rest, but I don't think it's a huge difference than say... if I could only get it half way down. When I can find somebody with a vise grip, I'll give that a go.

Thanks!
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Old May 21st, 2011, 02:54 PM   #27
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Default No magic bullet

There is just too much variability in the DA-45 setup to rely on a "paint by numbers" solution. I'd buy it as a start point, maybe, but it's just as easy to adjust them correctly and be done with it.

There is enough production tolerance in the depth and location of the hole in the plate where the pivot cup goes to preclude any meaningful "one size fits all" solution. Also, I never set up a plate with 2-1/2 threads showing on the kingpin. If that's the case, I step up to the next harder barrel cushion. (With the newest iteration of the Harry stud, it appears to be a little longer than the old ones, so this all changes anyway.)

Once you get the pivots correctly adjusted, you can safely go about one turn in either direction on the kingpin adjuster without getting into too much trouble. You really don't have to fiddle the pivots for a quarter turn on the kingpin. Like any other skate maintenance item, perodically make sure they aren't too loose or too tight.
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Old May 21st, 2011, 08:26 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frak_Attak View Post
So THAT'S the big hub bub about pivot pin adjustments. I've read a ton about how you need to adjust your pivot pin (to help lessen the stress on the king pin) but never read why it was so huge when it comes to skating. So, if the pin is too long, it studders, if it's too short, it wobbles? Am I getting that right? It might solve the problem on a few issues I was having with skating. I did notice my left skate was adjusted way off.

Thanks for the advice, I believe I'll try doing that! Look into getting some grease as well, sheese.

I was worried about that too since I can't screw the king pin ALL the way. It's really close, maybe less than a quarter of an inch away from being all the way in (that's what she said). So yeah, when tightening down my action there is maybe an extra thread more visible than the rest, but I don't think it's a huge difference than say... if I could only get it half way down. When I can find somebody with a vise grip, I'll give that a go.

Thanks!
If a king pin is a bit long, that will effect your pivot pin nut rotation count. If it looks like you have half a thread, or a full thread extra, account for that on the king pin by going past flush with the king pin nut. Turn it down so that half thread or so is showing before counting how many rotations you tighten it down. I had a full thread variance on one of my king pins, but by resetting it, I have them all dead even. So for me, I can easily use rotation count to get everything even. My pivot pin neutral points are all exactly the same as well, so again, I can use the rotation count. Your Milage May Vary. The neutral point may be different for a particular king pin, but once you find it, all the rest of the method applies.

Actually, LONG will give a little wobble on a one foot glide. It will be very turney. So much so that stability is lessened. The studder is a little loss of traction on a hard leaning over push or cut. Best detected on a good grippy floor. That is why I could not really tell when I skated Holiday. That floor was a bit too loose, and I am not as familiar with it as some other floors. That is why now I am saying the one foot wobble, pin a little long, is a bit easier to detect. And knowing going in that your pin will be right or long, but in in any case CLOSE, you can just tune it out if you detect it.

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There is just too much variability in the DA-45 setup to rely on a "paint by numbers" solution. I'd buy it as a start point, maybe, but it's just as easy to adjust them correctly and be done with it.
Good point. Anyone can have some variability. I have none right now on my Invader. I did have some until I reset that one king pin. Figure out how yours is. Check each pivot pin neutral point. Did they all come out the same? Cool if they did. Measure all you king pins against each other. Is one long? Take note and adjust you king pin nut adjustment accordingly.
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Old May 24th, 2011, 11:42 PM   #29
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When trying to adjust my girlfriends DA-45's I noticed that my wrenches do not fit very well when trying to adjust the pivot pin. Any suggestions on where to find thiner tools to make this process easier?
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Old May 24th, 2011, 11:48 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ShinjoSlapaHo View Post
When trying to adjust my girlfriends DA-45's I noticed that my wrenches do not fit very well when trying to adjust the pivot pin. Any suggestions on where to find thiner tools to make this process easier?
Good tools tend to be a bit thicker. (Craftsman) Cheapo wal-mart tools tend to be thinner. Good for THIS job.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 12:26 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by rufusprime99 View Post
Good tools tend to be a bit thicker. (Craftsman) Cheapo wal-mart tools tend to be thinner. Good for THIS job.
Thanks, I normally don't even look there for tools, as the job is only as good as your tools, but for this job it sounds like I need to get some Harbor Freight specials lol. Thanks for the info.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 09:06 AM   #32
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So I have to say that this worked really well for me. No wobble on a one foot glide and didn't notice any stuttering either (unfortunately I am still having problems with my boots hurting my feet, but that's another issue entirely). Going to try this on my VBK / Invader too to see what results I get on that
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Old May 25th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Katzen View Post
I'm using the DA45 Skins. I've followed the instructions and found that my 'neutral' point is just 1 full turn on the pivot adjustment. Any longer and the truck doesn't centre over the cushion (Blue barrel / conical, FWIW). I've now cranked down 2 turns. As Rufus found that taking the 2/6ths off to be short, I think I'm going to leave them at this 'neutral' point and give them a skate. Will report back after practice on Monday.
Okay, I'm really new at the adjustable pivot pins and 45 degree trucks, so this might be a very stupid question.

I also have DA45 Skins, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the pivot pins. I just can't seem to get them short enough. When I switched to softer cushions (Am on yellow barrel, blue cone now) and cranked them down a bit (not a whole lot, really) I noticed that the geometry seemed off - the pivot pin pushed the truck up (or down, towards the floor) so that it is not at a right angle with the king pin and cushions. So I added some washers above the barrel cushion to get the angle right.

This sort of works, but I still need to have my pivot pins as short as they can go, and I think they're still pushing in the cups. Also there's not a whole lot of king pin left now, and I'm wondering if this really is the right way to go at it or if I'm making some sort of obvious rookie mistake...
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Old May 25th, 2011, 01:55 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ShinjoSlapaHo View Post
When trying to adjust my girlfriends DA-45's I noticed that my wrenches do not fit very well when trying to adjust the pivot pin. Any suggestions on where to find thiner tools to make this process easier?
Shinjo - I bought all my wrenches for skate maintenance from here:

http://www.thinwrench.info/

They are great quality tools and work quite well for working on skates\bikes.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 03:00 PM   #35
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The wrenches I carry in my gear bag are from a $9 Harbor Freight set. They work fine for this job.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 04:37 PM   #36
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Shinjo - I bought all my wrenches for skate maintenance from here:

http://www.thinwrench.info/

They are great quality tools and work quite well for working on skates\bikes.
These are amazing looking. Now to go remember which sizes I need and to place an order. Thanks for the link ^_^
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Old May 25th, 2011, 10:08 PM   #37
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So I have to say that this worked really well for me. No wobble on a one foot glide and didn't notice any stuttering either (unfortunately I am still having problems with my boots hurting my feet, but that's another issue entirely). Going to try this on my VBK / Invader too to see what results I get on that
Great to hear , and good for the ladies since the whole getting a grip thing was more of a guy thing. (Hmm, that came out funny. )

I was confident with the squeeze method before, but then I got all discombobulated with my Invader and couldn't get it adjusted to save my life. My pins were all over the place. But I got my confidence back with the Pivot Pin Neutral Point and have things squared away nicely.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #38
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Okay, I'm really new at the adjustable pivot pins and 45 degree trucks, so this might be a very stupid question.

I also have DA45 Skins, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the pivot pins. I just can't seem to get them short enough. When I switched to softer cushions (Am on yellow barrel, blue cone now) and cranked them down a bit (not a whole lot, really) I noticed that the geometry seemed off - the pivot pin pushed the truck up (or down, towards the floor) so that it is not at a right angle with the king pin and cushions. So I added some washers above the barrel cushion to get the angle right.

This sort of works, but I still need to have my pivot pins as short as they can go, and I think they're still pushing in the cups. Also there's not a whole lot of king pin left now, and I'm wondering if this really is the right way to go at it or if I'm making some sort of obvious rookie mistake...
Well, if your pivot pin is long, as in, pushing the truck out of alignment, the plate will not perform properly to begin with and the king pin will have more stress and may break. So, do what you gotta do to keep it aligned. (+1 on the washers) Perhaps a purple barrel with blue cone will prevent the stack from compressing. What you want to prevent is the barrel compressing, as, from a truck geometry point of view, the truck sits on the barrel not the cone. A purple blue setup should do this and will require LESS tightening to begin with, also lessening the problem. If you start to run out of king pin, to where you have less than a thread showing, just make sure your nylock nut has plenty of grip and check it regularly so it does not come off.
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Old May 26th, 2011, 10:30 AM   #39
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Well, if your pivot pin is long, as in, pushing the truck out of alignment, the plate will not perform properly to begin with and the king pin will have more stress and may break. So, do what you gotta do to keep it aligned. (+1 on the washers) Perhaps a purple barrel with blue cone will prevent the stack from compressing. What you want to prevent is the barrel compressing, as, from a truck geometry point of view, the truck sits on the barrel not the cone. A purple blue setup should do this and will require LESS tightening to begin with, also lessening the problem. If you start to run out of king pin, to where you have less than a thread showing, just make sure your nylock nut has plenty of grip and check it regularly so it does not come off.
Thanks so much, that is awesome advice, explained in a way I understand! I am experimenting with different washers and cushions, and I think I'm getting there. I cut a pair of purples in half and use them instead of washers now, which seems to work. I'm okay with stability and all, but maybe it will put more pressure on the king pin, since I'm not using retainers (on top of the barrels) now?
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Old June 5th, 2011, 06:07 AM   #40
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Wow, I did not know what I was getting into when trying to fix that kingpin I mentioned earlier on. I took my problem to a local skateboard shop (we don't have any pro skate shops, sadness) and we get that pesky king pin out only to find that the threading on the kingpin and plate are completely jacked! After a trip to ACE and some very awesome skate shop guys, I know how to thread and tap my kingpin/plates. HA! It's going to require some adjustments but man, what a headache!

Also, I'll be trying out a new cushion combo with Venom. They're a boulder company that has some pretty high quality cushions, once I roll on them it'll be up on this board!

Love it here!!
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