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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old December 4th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #1
romekjagoda
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Default Looking for lowest possible frame 3x110+100mm

Dear Fellow skaters,
I am starting to look for the next season for a hybrid frame 3x110+100mm as a replacement for my stock Powerslide X frame that came with my first speed skating set up which was Powerslide R2. In the meantime I progressed to Bont Jets, and I feel now is the time for some bigger wheels as the Powerslide X frame is rather high (overall deck height is 97mm and there is about 10mm space between the top of the second wheel and the boots undersole, which is an unnecessary waste of height; plus it feels heavy too).

I've been reading about the Schankel Litemax hy311 as a possible candidate, but this is not the newest frame and there might be other, better ones out there. Any advice is more than welcome, also links to reviews, articles and comparisons.

I will probably continue to use my 4x100 setup for technical training until I feel my form is good enough, but I also see that the 100mm wheels limit me somehow in terms of speed.

Thanks for any thoughts.
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Old December 5th, 2017, 11:44 PM   #2
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The older Cado 1-1-2 hybrid had a deck height somewhere near 95mm I think. The newer Cado frames are taller. EO makes a carbon hybrid and the deck is 96mm. Not much lower than your current setup but I can't think of any others that are lower. Depending on your boot size, the overall deck height might be limited by the toe of your boot hitting the front wheel.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 05:27 AM   #3
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My first thought is the EO frame.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 03:25 AM   #4
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Take a look at the selection of Flyke Turbo frames: http://flykeracing.com/turbo-2/
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 08:36 AM   #5
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Hello everyone and happy New Year (it's still legit to wish it, right?).

Thank you for the informative replies and your interest in the topic. I did some shopping over the Xmas period and opted for the Schankel Litemax hy311. I was not able to compare it against all the suggestions you've made, but it was a frame I was able to try on my boots and it was one that fitted very well. I also tried on the Powerslide Icon (I am not sure about the model though) and it seemed on par or even slightly lower than Schankel (by a 1mm or so), but the guy selling me the frame advised me in favour of Schankel due to a more favourable placement of the wheels compared to PS: they are moved forward compared to the PS which, reportedly, helps to push/makes it lighter to push. I have not heard about this factor/characteristic of frame construction earlier, but choose to believe the guy who is experienced enough.
All in all, Schankel it is. I have not had yet the opportunity to test it, but the frame with 3x110/1x100 is 1mm lower than my previous entry-level PS setup 4x100 I had earlier. I believe I achieved what I wanted.
Still, I am going to stay on the 100mm for a while (couple of months), if I manage to keep my curiosity at bay, before switching to the new frame, in order to polish my technique and make sure I have right form and strenght for 110mm.
Cheers.
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Old January 23rd, 2018, 12:54 PM   #6
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I ran a Flyke Neutrino hi/lo at one time and it was very low.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 12:16 PM   #7
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Chuck, many thanks for your contribution.
Unfortunately, I haev not had the opportunity to lay my hands on the Flykes. The only option would have been to order them online and I prefered to get the Schankels that I could actually put on the boots and make sure they fitted. Anyway, I believe that I ended up at exactly the same front wheel height with the Schankels as I would have with the Flykes.

I was wondering though why top skaters opt for 4x110mm setups if 3x100/100 are told to offer the same speed with a much lower deck height. I was wondering if it really is true that the hybrid/hi-lo setup offers the same speed as 4x110, but I could not figure it out really. I am thinking there must be some (marginal?) speed difference as otherwise the overall deck height advantage is too obvious to dismiss (I would think even for top skaters), right? or am I missing something?
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Old January 24th, 2018, 01:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romekjagoda View Post
I was wondering though why top skaters opt for 4x110mm setups if 3x100/100 are told to offer the same speed with a much lower deck height. I was wondering if it really is true that the hybrid/hi-lo setup offers the same speed as 4x110, but I could not figure it out really. I am thinking there must be some (marginal?) speed difference as otherwise the overall deck height advantage is too obvious to dismiss (I would think even for top skaters), right? or am I missing something?
It has to do with mixing wheel sizes. It's inconvenient to have to purchase 6 of one size and 2 of the other to get a complete set. You also can't rotate them completely. The 100mm wheels can only fit into the 2nd spot on both frames. And in some cases, the profile of the 100mm wheels may differ even from its 110mm counterpart.
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Old January 24th, 2018, 09:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romekjagoda View Post
Chuck, many thanks for your contribution.
Unfortunately, I haev not had the opportunity to lay my hands on the Flykes. The only option would have been to order them online and I prefered to get the Schankels that I could actually put on the boots and make sure they fitted. Anyway, I believe that I ended up at exactly the same front wheel height with the Schankels as I would have with the Flykes.

I was wondering though why top skaters opt for 4x110mm setups if 3x100/100 are told to offer the same speed with a much lower deck height. I was wondering if it really is true that the hybrid/hi-lo setup offers the same speed as 4x110, but I could not figure it out really. I am thinking there must be some (marginal?) speed difference as otherwise the overall deck height advantage is too obvious to dismiss (I would think even for top skaters), right? or am I missing something?
Chuck hit most of the points that I would mention but I will also add that yes, 4x110 is faster than a hybrid especially outdoors. Indoors, 4x110 is typically faster because the small wheel on a hybrid doesn't flex like the bigger wheels and may cause turning issues.
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Old January 26th, 2018, 09:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckboucher View Post
It has to do with mixing wheel sizes. It's inconvenient to have to purchase 6 of one size and 2 of the other to get a complete set. You also can't rotate them completely. The 100mm wheels can only fit into the 2nd spot on both frames. And in some cases, the profile of the 100mm wheels may differ even from its 110mm counterpart.
Ok, that it's inconvenient I get. But it bugs me physics-wise, whether 1 smaller wheel in 4 can make a difference compared to a straight 4x110 set up. Not that I will be able to feel or greatly suffer from using the hybrid frame, as I am sure I won't be able to test it's limits anywhere close in future; so these are mainly academic considerations that I am making.
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Old January 26th, 2018, 09:16 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kufman View Post
Chuck hit most of the points that I would mention but I will also add that yes, 4x110 is faster than a hybrid especially outdoors. Indoors, 4x110 is typically faster because the small wheel on a hybrid doesn't flex like the bigger wheels and may cause turning issues.
Thanks Kufman. About the hub flex issue, however: if the hub design is exactly the same between the 110 and 100 (same material, same manufacturer) but only proportionally smaller for the 100 then this issue would theoretically be eliminated, right?
I don't race indors, and train indors only occasionaly so it does not really bug me, but these are interesting arguments.

I've been reading recently about the 4x105mm setup and it seems that some folks preferred it over the hybrid solutions, so there must be something to it. In any case, surely, the proof of the pudding is in the pudding itself and I won't know the sensations of the hybrid, until I try it out, which with the current weather is not possible for me.
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Old January 26th, 2018, 09:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romekjagoda View Post
Thanks Kufman. About the hub flex issue, however: if the hub design is exactly the same between the 110 and 100 (same material, same manufacturer) but only proportionally smaller for the 100 then this issue would theoretically be eliminated, right?
I don't race indors, and train indors only occasionaly so it does not really bug me, but these are interesting arguments.

I've been reading recently about the 4x105mm setup and it seems that some folks preferred it over the hybrid solutions, so there must be something to it. In any case, surely, the proof of the pudding is in the pudding itself and I won't know the sensations of the hybrid, until I try it out, which with the current weather is not possible for me.
It is more complicated than just scaling down the hub since smaller hubs also have a different aspect ratio (width to diameter). This tends to make the smaller hubs stiffer for the same design. The proportion of urethane to hub also makes a different. If my experience, 2 different wheel sizes never really flex the same.
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Old January 27th, 2018, 09:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romekjagoda View Post
I've been reading recently about the 4x105mm setup and it seems that some folks preferred it over the hybrid solutions, so there must be something to it.
I skated a long time on a 4105 and loved it. Had to switch to a 4110 because none of the wheel companies produce 105mm wheels anymore.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 05:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romekjagoda View Post
Ok, that it's inconvenient I get. But it bugs me physics-wise, whether 1 smaller wheel in 4 can make a difference compared to a straight 4x110 set up. Not that I will be able to feel or greatly suffer from using the hybrid frame, as I am sure I won't be able to test it's limits anywhere close in future; so these are mainly academic considerations that I am making.
I had the same feeling and skated numerous hybrids for years. I skate outdoors only. I now use a 4x110 and begrudgingly agree that it rolls significantly better than a hybrid. Alexander Bont used to post on this board. If you search, you'll find a thread on this subject where he mentioned Bont's testing came to the same conclusion. I believe the smaller wheel doesn't roll as smoothly over rougher pavement causing extra drag. The rougher the pavement, the more noticable it is. As an engineer (ok, a ChemE), I still find it surprising how significant the one wheel appears to be. A hybrid's lower deck height and lower weight can still make it advantageous depending on the skater's technique, strength, ability, etc. especially on smoother pavement and possibly hillier courses.

P.S. I've never skated Schankel, but I've heard it is a very good, stiff frame. The stiffness might help reduce the extra drag from that wheel, but I've been wrong before.
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Old January 28th, 2018, 04:12 PM   #15
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The couple of years I used a hybrid, I found the small wheel would consistently wear out more slowly than the others. Don't know if that's because the 2nd wheel gets the least wear and that's more obvious on a hybrid because it never gets rotated to another position, or if there's actually less weight / side force on the small wheel. All the wheels would touch on a flat surface, but the weight distribution when skating depends on how relatively squishy each of the wheels and frame are.

In addition to the better roll, I really notice the extra length of the 4x110 (positive) and the extra distance that the mass of the wheels are from the bottom of my foot (negative). 5x84's felt like the frame & wheels were part of my foot, but all 110s feel like a concrete block _under_ my foot that wants to go wherever gravity takes it, the 4x110 more so.
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Old January 29th, 2018, 09:47 AM   #16
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Thank you all guys for sharing the thoughts with me. It seems that some of the info and wisdom coming from your experiences with different setups would have been beneficial for me, had I asked earlier... Now, the Schankel hybrid frame is with me, so that's it for the next couple of seasons. In any case, it may be a good transition set-up, in view of lack of 105mm wheels that are no longer available. I may switch to some 4x110 setup at some point further down the road, but I feel it would be too much at this stage, as my technique and ankle strength are not quite there yet, as I judge it. So accepting the reservations and valid problems you mention, I still think that for me the hybrid setup may be the optimal stage in my skating development (accepting the fact that there are no perfect, ideal solutions). I still hope to experience a new set of positive experiences linked to using the new frame with bigger wheels at no cost of increasing the overall deck height, while knowing, the next stage will be 4x110 with an even more extended roll.
At this stage I simply need to continue preparing for the season, doing off-skate exercises and only an occasional in-door training, but the new equipment gives me new motivation to re-heat the passion and reinvigorate the efforts (I don't know if it's just me, but that's how it works sometimes with me).
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