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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old February 10th, 2009, 02:42 PM   #41
evilzzz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
THANKS FOR THE INPUT:

Maybe I should try a low cut boot like the Bont Jet.
How much is the difference in ankle support and padding between
the non custom Bont Semi-Race and Bont Jet.

Is it right, that the Bont Jet gives more support to new skaters compared to the Fila F100, the RB Racemachine or a Powerslide R4 (as all these boots are available in the next shop)? (As the Jet is super moldable, it should be adaptable to my foot.)

Michael

Not that I am that knowledgeable about different boots, but the Bont Jet is not a particularly low cut boot. In fact there is probably more cuff than on most proper speedskates. The semi-race has a higher cuff yet.

Can't comment on the comparison to the Fila F100 or the R4, but I feel my the Jets are low enough. I suppose you get used to whatever you are on, though, and they might feel quite high cut for someone who is used to a really lower cut boot.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:03 PM   #42
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Default any urban possibility?

can low cut speed boot be used for urban skating, including jumping on/off curbs, obstacles, slide stopping? Sorry for non sense question, just wondering since low cut boot seem give more articulation freedom.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 04:55 AM   #43
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can low cut speed boot be used for urban skating, including jumping on/off curbs, obstacles, slide stopping? Sorry for non sense question, just wondering since low cut boot seem give more articulation freedom.
If you don't mind breaking you ankle they can.......

Speed skates are for speed skating only, you may have to jump a snake or dog turd out on the trail but that is all you should plan on jumping.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 05:33 AM   #44
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can low cut speed boot be used for urban skating, including jumping on/off curbs, obstacles, slide stopping? Sorry for non sense question, just wondering since low cut boot seem give more articulation freedom.
They can be used for parallel slide stopping as one of my customers proved (but keep in mind you need to have some old wheels, because there is no way you will slide the new ones)... Jumping is kind of dangerous but I use low cut boot for classical street skating and even during the race you might jump over something - but they are not built for this, so ankles really suffer. Also I can go down the crowded passageway just fine with speed skates. Basically you can go to Nightskates with speed skates because speeds are so low that you will not have most of the problems.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:27 AM   #45
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Thanks for the reply. After removing ankle support from my freestyle skates I feel more freedom in movement, I used to buckle it loose. From this come the idea.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 09:51 AM   #46
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Freestyle skates are not even remotely the same as low cut speed boots. This is the fact. With your freedom of movement and cushy skates control with your low cut is putting even more stress on your ankles and even less control.

Speed skates have hard shell for a reason.
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Old January 16th, 2014, 07:53 PM   #47
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The other thing to remember is that if you remove the plastic/carbon support (which I presume is what you've done?), then the cuff of your slalom boots will go soft pretty quickly under the extra pressure/bending. It's a quick way to ruin a boot so be careful (!) - I've seen a couple of people follow your line of reasoning and remove the support before.

As Letme said, the reason why speed boots work the way they do is that they're immensely stiffer and tighter than even my stiffest carbon fibre freestyle skates and have a fraction of the padding.

Is there a trick that you're struggling with that makes you think that you could do with some extra movement round the cuff? (apart from trying to do a proper speed skating stride of course).
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Old January 17th, 2014, 03:08 AM   #48
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Double push is easy in an abover ankle cuffed boot.

This is a difficult question to really answer, so heres to logic... maybe

A high cuff boot wont slow you down. The probelm starts when the flexibility of the ankle is hindered during normal striding, which would slow the peak top speed if a kick. I personally hate hockey boots on inline skates. Why? Well, they don't have an articulating cuff. So If you want the flexibility to skate fast the above ankle portion cannot be tight. With articulating cuffs you have support possible that allows more strength to be laterally pushed against your ankles.


A low cuff boot offers no ankle support, however how often do you see an inliner using quad-like ankle flexing to make a proper stride? You don't. the best way to transition power to the ground is keeping your blades and legs in the same line. Like punching a heavy bag, the hardest hits arent made with a bent wrist, the same goes for kicks duing skating in inlines. You save weight by having a smaller boot which can help times and top speed. The longer the distance the more times you must stride, so the more times you must move the additional weight of a high cuff boot. This increases the likelyhood it will slow you down.

I will say that I can use certian muscles in my hips more with my higher cuff because of the reduced strain on my ankles.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 04:17 AM   #49
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Says the guy who hasn't skated in speed skates.................

Speed boots are low cut because you can skate faster in them that way. This is due to fit, size, weight and ankle movement.

Speed boots have got lower cut over the last 20 years as design has improved.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 04:40 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
Says the guy who hasn't skated in speed skates.................

Speed boots are low cut because you can skate faster in them that way. This is due to fit, size, weight and ankle movement.

Speed boots have got lower cut over the last 20 years as design has improved.
Says the guy who still thinks that I haven't skated a speed inline just because I personally don't own a pair. Lol

Your explanation is crude.

Low or high cuff doesn't matter so much as, its the resistance to your skating movements a boot has, and its weight will effect the speed that you can accelerate your leg in a stride.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 04:44 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Says the guy who still thinks that I haven't skated a speed inline just because I personally don't own a pair. Lol

Your explanation is crude.

Low or high cuff doesn't matter so much as, its the resistance to your skating movements a boot has, and its weight will effect the speed that you can accelerate your leg in a stride.
When someone wins a world title on boots with a high cut please let me know

Nothing missing or crude in my answer.............just facts.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:11 AM   #52
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the best way to transition power to the ground is keeping your blades and legs in the same line.
This quote is ********. You did hear the change of edges right? And you think that is done with blades and legs in same line? Double push gets its power through ankle push, which means you have to actually produce something in ankle and not make it stiff. Not to mention once you go into corner - the limiting movement above ankle can make all the difference with proper crossover technique.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:19 AM   #53
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When someone wins a world title on boots with a high cut please let me know

Nothing missing or crude in my answer.............just facts.
Just because no one is winning on one doesnt mean it wouldn't win. More like no one races on them...I don't agree or disagree with the cuff height impacting speed, but its much more likely to hurt than help. Considering you would need an articulating cuff built completely custom to your movements. It would have to be completely free moving for striding and only brace lateral movements. The amount of support gained would actually need to be used for it to even be there in the first place. You would have to be able to utilize , or better utilize a muscle group with the strength to make up for the added weight if it was in fact free moving, its unlikely, but leg muscles are extremely strong and leverage on our ankles grows as we go up in wheel sizes. I really wouldnt be suprised if they come out for speed skates eventually to help deal with the added leverage of say 125+ mm wheels.

Don't think I'm advocating above ankle cuffs for racing now lol. However if it helped a skater be better than they would have been without it.. cool. But to dismiss something because of the trend in racing is the pinnacle of idiocy. There once was a time where drivers raced with someone looking out for who was behind them so thy would know how to hold the other drivers behind them... just sayin

If you found my previous posts in his thead misleading then you should read my posts again.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Letme View Post
This quote is ********. You did hear the change of edges right? And you think that is done with blades and legs in same line? Double push gets its power through ankle push, which means you have to actually produce something in ankle and not make it stiff. Not to mention once you go into corner - the limiting movement above ankle can make all the difference with proper crossover technique.
Ankles arent strong for rolling left to right. The action of a rolling ankle during a double push doesnt create gobs of power, its main purpose is to increase the speed of the stride before the power portion of a stride. This allows you to surge a pulse of power into an already accelerated leg. This is what makes the double push so fast. It has very.little to do with actually using the rolling action of your ankle for anything other than setting up for a fast hard kick.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 05:53 AM   #54
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Ankles arent strong for rolling left to right.
Now I dont know if you're joking or you're playing stupid. Here watch this video (something you should already know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNKbGxVfRxI) and tell me why all the drills include changing edges and why knee snap also adjust the skate angle in ankle. And he is teaching there - if you find some videos of guys racing you will see that ankle strength and roll are far beyond what you'd think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I really wouldnt be suprised if they come out for speed skates eventually to help deal with the added leverage of say 125+ mm wheels.
Again - have you recently checked Korean skaters or Taipei? Then you know that height of 125mm+ wheels have long been exceeded by surprisingly high frames and they found the benefit in that leverage you point as being a problem.

I wonder why speed increases every time someone changes skates from top fitness skates (I will add here even Bont Semi-Race) to low cut boot?

As cass38a said: if high cut boots would be nearly competitive we would see someone at least on Semi-Race type boots in competition. Even if you check boots of top 50 you wont see Semi-Race boots in there, not to mention soft shell fitness boots.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 06:08 AM   #55
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Hes not laying power down during the time he is rolling his ankle or edge transferring. Jezz.

As for korean skaters, they arent 6"1 and 200 lbs. Most of their guys barely go 5"4 and weigh 110-120. Thus they can likely get away with the added height, and until thir ankles reach capacity it only makes sense to add height when they can add in some ankle roll for an increased stride length.

Why you guus are caught up on only what is currently winning is beyond me, as if its gospel. After all everyone is built identical right?
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Old January 17th, 2014, 08:08 AM   #56
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Why you guus are caught up on only what is currently winning is beyond me, as if its gospel. After all everyone is built identical right?
It is not like high cuff boots are new - they are not some genius invention just out (unlike lets say 125mm wheels, maybe carbon frames, the wire-lace system, etc.). They are here from start, yet everyone is still on low cuff. Even if my previous points dont convince you, history should - in 20 years high cuff boots disappeared from races (not to mention track etc.).

Plus with frame height justification you just pointed out that they get additional ankle roll - that means apparently it is important after all.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 11:30 AM   #57
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Low cut is the only way to go for top performance, especially for track type skating. Marathons you can get away with a higher boot up until the final sprint. The movements of the ankle are too complex to use a simple articulated cuff. Anything more than a simple pivot will add too much weight. When you look at the big picture, our boots are tall when compared to long track ice boots.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 03:15 PM   #58
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Ankles arent strong for rolling left to right. The action of a rolling ankle during a double push doesnt create gobs of power, its main purpose is to increase the speed of the stride before the power portion of a stride. This allows you to surge a pulse of power into an already accelerated leg. This is what makes the double push so fast. It has very.little to do with actually using the rolling action of your ankle for anything other than setting up for a fast hard kick.
The reason a double push is so fast is that so much of the stride is inside the power box, including the entire under push. In addition, it uses the recovery time of a normal stride to push, so you get a greater use-to-recovery ratio. The powerful part of a stride is when the foot is beneath you and you can have most to all of your weight fully on the leg. It is not the end of the stride as you seem to be implying here.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 03:42 PM   #59
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Quote:
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The longer the distance the more times you must stride, so the more times you must move the additional weight of a high cuff boot. This increases the likelyhood it will slow you down.
So in the NSC 1 lap time trials they should be using high boots, they only lift them 8-10 maybe 12 times.
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I will say that I can use certian muscles in my hips more with my higher cuff because of the reduced strain on my ankles.
That is you. Because you have never spent the time on low boots to get used to them or know how to use them.
Your ankles stay lazy.
You talk a lot about ankle strain, but when I train hard it is not my ankles that feel the pain at the end.
The real shame is if you are near as good and strong as you say, you could go far if you would listen to people that have, and train.
But it is so much easier to give advice in the speed forum then to work on being able to do speed skating.
By the way, your nice bendy cuff still does not give the freedom of movement of a low cut boot. Not even just up and down.
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Old January 17th, 2014, 08:51 PM   #60
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So in the NSC 1 lap time trials they should be using high boots, they only lift them 8-10 maybe 12 times.

That is you. Because you have never spent the time on low boots to get used to them or know how to use them.
Your ankles stay lazy.
You talk a lot about ankle strain, but when I train hard it is not my ankles that feel the pain at the end.
The real shame is if you are near as good and strong as you say, you could go far if you would listen to people that have, and train.
But it is so much easier to give advice in the speed forum then to work on being able to do speed skating.
By the way, your nice bendy cuff still does not give the freedom of movement of a low cut boot. Not even just up and down.
Mort may get a bit off track sometimes BUT....Mort made the trip to Michigan (from WV) to skate at my local rink last year....and he entered a local race the next day. I'll just say he is a beast on skates. He is a very strong and good skater. I was impressed.
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