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Old August 21st, 2017, 01:13 PM   #21
fierocious1
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Originally Posted by jackbkwikn View Post
So what is your point? lot of skaters run looser compression than I do. The cushions are a little more than shug, I don't do floppy trucks. So you will see much more movement on looser suspension, these are yellows. Blues would be way too soft for me to use and at my weight, IMO, would move much more than this. I don't believe in running the softest cushions, I believe in running the firmest cushions that let you achieve traction and handling. If the compression is too hard, you loose traction on marginal floors, too soft and you loose a bit of control. It is a balance. I had not seen cushion action captured on camera til now, maybe it has been captured before but I haven't seen it. Cushions distort quite a bit, the harder you lean, the more distortion you get. Cushions distort much more than people would normally believe that they do. If you are a session skater and cut and turn hard, you will be surprised at just how much a DA45 will move cushions around.
I don't have any mounted steeper kp plates to skate. However I can put a standard style plate, like a competitor and set up some lean. I bet they move a good bit too.

Its really simple the cushion is riding on the KP.
your photos prove it...
There is nothing different about how the cushion is put on the kp than any other skate. The clearance is less around the truck. I can video the same setup with the truck in normal position(caster normal) and the result will be the same except no damage. The truck is pinching the cushion when the truck is pushed hard over. Like I said, all I have to do is clearance a bit of the truck. The upper yellow cushion is moving almost identically to the lower one, but not getting pinched.
All lower cushions ride the on the KP, unless extremely tight, you just have never seen them deformed so much until now.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 02:08 PM   #22
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Oh really all cushions ride on the KP....
Maybe you should look again princess.

45s greatest design flaw...
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Old August 21st, 2017, 03:37 PM   #23
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Oh really all cushions ride on the KP....
Maybe you should look again princess.

45s greatest design flaw...
"There is nothing different about how the cushion is put on the kp than any other skate". I said this earlier. You said ride on the kp? where else would it ride? No other place for it to be. ALL cushions "are on the KP" and "ride the kingpin"(except for ARIUS and other fixed shaft plates), so again what is your point? Maybe you are used to crushed and rock hard cushions.
I don't see a design flaw, but my plates are not stock, yours is. I can change and vary the action more than non-DA45s, not just change cushions. I can fix my plate issues even if I create the issue in the first place. But my plates are not in someone else's design "parameters" other than truck design. So everyone is supposed to use only what a "factory/skate company" produces? Kinda stifling creativity aren't you? You don't think they are trying new stuff too?

I think that you think the action of the cushion is unusual, it's not. Loose/soft suspension, front left truck(usually gets more action, and why I put the camera there in the first place) and skating counter clockwise is why it is so pronounced. The other trucks will show ALMOST as much action, but zero damage to the cone. The extra little bit of lean on the truck is the difference. This truck is forced over more than the other ones just from location.

You say flaw(DA45), I say limited tuning ability(non-DA45).

Put another way, you have a plate in the middle of a shaft that has fixed ends on it. Cushions on both sides of the plate, putting the cushions between the plate and the ends. Cushions deform, not compress like springs. So if you don't have rocks for cushions, the "soft cushions" will deform, the more the plate is twisted over, the more the cushions will deform as they have no other place to go.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 21st, 2017 at 11:38 PM.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 06:54 PM   #24
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The nylon washers flex. That's why I stopped using them. It seemed counter productive though I have no data or experience to back it up. In your scenario, the flex might be an advantage. I can't stick with a single setup long enough to tell the difference.

Yes the thin ones I started with flexed a little, but what I saw later was that the inside bore would try to ride up over the smaller washer. Once I made the new ones that went away. But the rub in the pocket is still present, just a clearance issue. I may try to mill the pocket later this week.

The cushion diameter changes as you compress them. I use a 3/4" od aluminum washer that fits about right for the cones. It looks a little large until you crank down on the king pin nut. I could machine it down, but why bother.
With the caster and clearance issue, I had to use smaller washers. However the cushion with out cups takes away ramp up. Too small a washer and the cushion tries to go over the washer, too large and you get a start of ramp up but still less than a cup would produce.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 21st, 2017 at 11:19 PM.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 11:56 PM   #25
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I still suggest greasing rhe action between the truck and the cushions wider areas, also grease the shaft of the kingpin and in inside if the cones, this allows the cushion to deflect with minimal abrsion.

85A is usually the most versatile when talking about urethanes AFAIK. alsi the yellow has been shown a few times to have poor consistency in duros, which would lead me to believe its lifespan is also poor.

It doesnt take much grease. Also the cushions should have ribs on the larger side which will help retain the grease where it should be.

If you ran 85A it should snap back better as its compression set would be less over time and its firmer, which should also take advantage of a better snapback. This only applies if the cushion can return to its correct restiong position. A greased suspension does just that.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:30 AM   #26
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I still suggest greasing rhe action between the truck and the cushions wider areas, also grease the shaft of the kingpin and in inside if the cones, this allows the cushion to deflect with minimal abrsion.

85A is usually the most versatile when talking about urethanes AFAIK. alsi the yellow has been shown a few times to have poor consistency in duros, which would lead me to believe its lifespan is also poor.

It doesnt take much grease. Also the cushions should have ribs on the larger side which will help retain the grease where it should be.

If you ran 85A it should snap back better as its compression set would be less over time and its firmer, which should also take advantage of a better snapback. This only applies if the cushion can return to its correct restiong position. A greased suspension does just that.
The yellows have about a year lifespan, I run them fairly loose so they don't take much of a set anyway. Ive ran all the colors but yellows have the shortest lifespan in my cases. Only place I can use purples is on top of the stack. Anywhere else and the suspension is too stiff, the action changes at the end of the stroke and grip changes.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:51 AM   #27
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I skate on boens.
I have yellow barrel and cones installed not tight.
A boen has retainers that are locked with a shoulder on the kp .So the cushions dont move.

You have removed the retainers and added another cushion .
Mort and i are right.
Only i say its a design flaw as well.
Stop over thinking it....I thought you where channeling Dilli......Rip
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 02:38 AM   #28
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I skate on boens.
I have yellow barrel and cones installed not tight.
A boen has retainers that are locked with a shoulder on the kp .So the cushions dont move.

You have removed the retainers and added another cushion .
Mort and i are right.
Only i say its a design flaw as well.
Stop over thinking it....I thought you where channeling Dilli......Rip
You don't skate my skates... your opinion. I don't skate boens, never have. Sounds like they bind up pretty good. There is only one other person that has skated my skates. I have no idea what he thinks, but binding isn't what I think he would say. Sure I added another cushion, but I don't skates that don't turn either. In the past there have been other skates that use longer cushions and were for speed. But I don't especially think boens are all that. From others I have heard they aren't that good, won't turn. Maybe the engineer messed up and sold them anyway..
Mort says they need lube, I never said they didn't but you and he aren't here to see the truck hit the cushion and pinch it either. Pinching and lube are two entirely different things. The cushions sides are not supposed to hit the truck, simple enough, I know that, said it all along. You say flaw... but you can't test your stuffed up plate and make changes I can while experimenting either.
The part I left out is that all this is after removing shim to slow the steering down just a bit more, that closes the gap up even more. I can put shim in anytime I want to and speed the steering up, end of issue. but I'm testing, again. Can your boen do that? NOPE. Boen design flaw... possibly. You aren't experimenting either.
I bring a camera to a skate and people sometimes misinterpret the video. I bring parts, that is not all there is to it. If the cushion is torn up in one area, facing the truck pocket:
1. it didn't rotate
2. it wore in an arc on the small end.
3. the socket has a clearance issue when trying to adjust the compression
4. the cushion distorts in every direction but only hits on the truck side.

At this caster angle I need clearance, put a shim in it, the issue will go away. The only "flaw" is not clearancing the trucks first.

I just need not discuss with people that aren't into trying new things. That's the real issue. Maybe Armadillo was right, keep all the info to himself and sell custom skates..
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 06:18 AM   #29
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Sounds like you found your own answer.I must've hit a nerve when i said design flaw.You say the same about boens.Fine.

You like blowing your own horn dont you.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 07:03 AM   #30
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Animosity of you 2 aside lol.


With lubrication it allows the cushion to squirm away alot easier.

What I recommend is to apply a thin film to the truck yoke and the cushion surface that contacts the truck yoke. As well as the shaft of the KP. Very light amount here, just enough for some slip. Keeping the washer/cups dry. Metal preferred as the tack of a clean metal surface and polyurethane should hold.

My interest is to see if the lil camera you have shows any change in behavior.

Im sure you will feel the difference between lube/no lube, even with minimal compression at neutral(zero lash). I also wonder if you will want a different setup of cones with grease than without.

As for Dillo, there is one thing he was right about(at least im 99.9% sure), the yoke position on the kingpin and the way the cushions touch the yoke changes as you add or remove shims, this partially affects the steering inout/output. I did this a while back with some sh!tty vanilla skates, but at that time the focus was to make the cushions evenly contact the trucks yoke. The more you take the cushion stack out of the intended design where the trucks yoke should rest, youll change where the cushions first start to pinch the yoke. If they pinch harder between the kp and the pivot, steering should increase. If they pinch more between the two KP's, steering slows dowb because theres more urethane and less room now on that side.

Da45 trucks (33deg kp) dont experience it as fast as 5 10 or 15 deg angles.

One could custom cut/machine cushions so any imperfections could easily be adjusted, this way the truck yoke and the cushions always have a flat interface.

Or even one could make a custome retainer where its tapered to add compression in strategic areas. Problem becomes holding it still. A small groove in the kp could do the job, or a small dowel at the baseplate could lock the plate side retainer in place. Allowing someone to modify the retainer to suit their suspension needs without going a full step harder or softer.

The floor side retainer could be the one that uses a groove in the kp to keep it from turning. That would help retain the strength of the kp. Since not a lot of stress to break a kp is exerted where the floor side retainer is.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 12:48 PM   #31
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Animosity of you 2 aside lol.


With lubrication it allows the cushion to squirm away alot easier.

What I recommend is to apply a thin film to the truck yoke and the cushion surface that contacts the truck yoke. As well as the shaft of the KP. Very light amount here, just enough for some slip. Keeping the washer/cups dry. Metal preferred as the tack of a clean metal surface and polyurethane should hold.

My interest is to see if the lil camera you have shows any change in behavior.

Im sure you will feel the difference between lube/no lube, even with minimal compression at neutral(zero lash). I also wonder if you will want a different setup of cones with grease than without.

As for Dillo, there is one thing he was right about(at least im 99.9% sure), the yoke position on the kingpin and the way the cushions touch the yoke changes as you add or remove shims, this partially affects the steering inout/output. I did this a while back with some sh!tty vanilla skates, but at that time the focus was to make the cushions evenly contact the trucks yoke. The more you take the cushion stack out of the intended design where the trucks yoke should rest, youll change where the cushions first start to pinch the yoke. If they pinch harder between the kp and the pivot, steering should increase. If they pinch more between the two KP's, steering slows dowb because theres more urethane and less room now on that side.

Da45 trucks (33deg kp) dont experience it as fast as 5 10 or 15 deg angles.

One could custom cut/machine cushions so any imperfections could easily be adjusted, this way the truck yoke and the cushions always have a flat interface.

Or even one could make a custome retainer where its tapered to add compression in strategic areas. Problem becomes holding it still. A small groove in the kp could do the job, or a small dowel at the baseplate could lock the plate side retainer in place. Allowing someone to modify the retainer to suit their suspension needs without going a full step harder or softer.

The floor side retainer could be the one that uses a groove in the kp to keep it from turning. That would help retain the strength of the kp. Since not a lot of stress to break a kp is exerted where the floor side retainer is.
Actually, Armadillo argued forever that it could not be done, changing the steering rate. My argument was that I could and proved that I could with the analyzer I built. But he hated DA45s.
At the points I am testing now, it is still not an issue to tilt the truck. Handling is fine. Tilting the trucks do slightly load the cushions differently but, cushions compress and do what they are supposed to do anyway allowing the testing to continue. I understand you wanting to pin the cushions, however the cushions are not taking a set and then turning, which would make the trucks hang at an angle or the wheels not sit flat on the floor. So this problem is not an issue for these plates.
Dillo also had tried to shim it with non-DA45s over and over, I called him down on it. His test I think that I called him down on was the use of trucks that were not fitting correctly on a different plate. He assumed that since non-DA45s couldn't do it that DA45s could not either.
These skates I have were built to allow more testing anyway, so I try to test anything that comes to mind. The theory now that I am testing is, Inlines do not rely on wheels that steer and are fast and efficient. So if steering is highly reduced can quads become more efficient too.

About a year ago I used lube on the cushions, I swapped out the cushions for new ones and didn't bother to relube the setup. Also the lube was on the white magnums, not this pair of skates. Back then, I didn't feel much difference because the suspension is loosely set up or just at snug.
The color of the cushions(hardness) directly affects the steering on these skates. So changing hardnesses in this testing would directly change what direction I am going in the test. One test at time... once all of it is done I will move on to a new test.

The next test since you asked for it, will be how lube affects steering on these plates. Is there any change in quad performance if the cushions are lubricated or not. May be a few weeks though as I don't make changes not related to the goal of the test. Only thing is that, these quads aren't like any others, and running this setup may not accurately give results that are the same for other plates. May be similar, but not the same.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 01:07 PM   #32
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I was talking about pinning down the retainer not so much the cushions. This way one could have a retainer that provided pressure on the center line of the plate, but beveled away on the edges where the cushion sees the most travel /movement from leaning the plate over. Which would provide stability at neutral with compression from the kingpin nut, but allow extra lean potential without excessive ramp up resistance.. this being in a setup thqt would be tighter than zero lash of course.

On cone setups like you use, there isnt the same potential for that though. Much greater adjustment with a barrel that would be using a retainer. Although with some handy work, one could have a retainer that cups the cushion in the centerline and is non existant where the cone needs to swell out.


Have you tried increasing the rate of turn in the rear and slowing it down in the front so your push can be extended?

This is why i got my plates aligned the way I do. In a lot of instances I rear steer my skates.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 01:10 PM   #33
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Sounds like you found your own answer.I must've hit a nerve when i said design flaw.You say the same about boens.Fine.

You like blowing your own horn dont you.
I like testing but I didn't go into insult mode first... Boens are like early Corvettes, they are light and pretty(almost feminine) but don't handle worth a d__m. But that was not my statement, I heard it long ago from others.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 01:38 PM   #34
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I was talking about pinning down the retainer not so much the cushions. This way one could have a retainer that provided pressure on the center line of the plate, but beveled away on the edges where the cushion sees the most travel /movement from leaning the plate over. Which would provide stability at neutral with compression from the kingpin nut, but allow extra lean potential without excessive ramp up resistance.. this being in a setup thqt would be tighter than zero lash of course.

On cone setups like you use, there isnt the same potential for that though. Much greater adjustment with a barrel that would be using a retainer. Although with some handy work, one could have a retainer that cups the cushion in the centerline and is non existant where the cone needs to swell out.


Have you tried increasing the rate of turn in the rear and slowing it down in the front so your push can be extended?

This is why i got my plates aligned the way I do. In a lot of instances I rear steer my skates.
I see where you are going with this, On the bottom new plastic washer, it is beveled and can be modified more. I made it like that for the next test coming up. Right now it is turned to the flat side to test diameter vs loading.

The upper cushions will not benefit from beveled washers because of the length of the cushion.

On cone setups like you use, there isnt the same potential for that though. Much greater adjustment with a barrel that would be using a retainer. Although with some handy work, one could have a retainer that cups the cushion in the centerline and is non existant where the cone needs to swell out.

Pressure points at the cushions make things move around. A beveled truck pocket would do what you are asking about. But it definitely affects at the other end of the lower cushion. The sides of the cushions have the most influence, controlling the swelling of the cushion sides controls the pressure during deflection. AS the fattest/large end of the cushion is being leaned over the forces swell the side of the cushion. So reducing the diameter of the washer helps. The beveled washer test is next.
got to go to work!

Yes i have slowed the front steering and sped up the rear steering a bit. I actually prefer it.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 22nd, 2017 at 05:00 PM.
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 05:40 PM   #35
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Yes i have slowed the front steering and sped up the rear steering a bit. I actually prefer it.
Same here.(via plate alignment for the inside edge) It seems to let me really end my stride with a full leg extension off the toe. (Thinking about finishing my stride with max pressure/velocity)
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Old August 22nd, 2017, 05:53 PM   #36
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Same here.(via plate alignment for the inside edge) It seems to let me really end my stride with a full leg extension off the toe. (Thinking about finishing my stride with max pressure/velocity)
That why in the video the truck angle is pushed over so far. Its the truck that leaves the floor last.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 02:29 AM   #37
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I skated fierocious1's setup and they were definitaly not tight. It felt like no other setup I've ever been on. Like skis or on rails. The suspension was soft and turny. Yet very stable - I think this was somewhat due to longer plate, mount position, and softer wheels.

For his goals the setup made sense.

What I find odd is I have ran a similar double-cone setup with the same wheel spacing and the feel was completely different. My setup felt extremely turny but not like the rails or ski feeling. I ran Royal trucks which I believe are the same geometry as his. So I'm not really sure why his felt so different. Maybe a more forward mount. Not sure.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 04:26 AM   #38
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I skated fierocious1's setup and they were definitaly not tight. It felt like no other setup I've ever been on. Like skis or on rails. The suspension was soft and turny. Yet very stable - I think this was somewhat due to longer plate, mount position, and softer wheels.

For his goals the setup made sense.

What I find odd is I have ran a similar double-cone setup with the same wheel spacing and the feel was completely different. My setup felt extremely turny but not like the rails or ski feeling. I ran Royal trucks which I believe are the same geometry as his. So I'm not really sure why his felt so different. Maybe a more forward mount. Not sure.
I run a long magnum 45 da soft cushions and they turn but give good feedback and are reasonably stable.If i jump on a pair of 20 degree soft suspended slightly shorter skates i find they initiate the turn sooner but need to be pushed to really turn . but the 45 da mags /long tend to powerslide more than the shorter 20's at high speed.
Ive just made an axle come loose on the 45's so had to go to my backup skates {20 degree}not anywhere near as safe or as much fun as the 45's.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 03:13 AM   #39
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I had to change the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTo5_fHmI8k
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Old August 24th, 2017, 01:03 PM   #40
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that's impressiive ferocious i might try the hourglass tripe cone setup on mine next.aka dillostyle ish .
I did try a da dillo conversion on a pair of flyer 5s a while back and that was a improvement
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