Doug Glass weighs in on quad plates.

[VioletBuckle]

Originally Posted by elemental

i would have dissagree wholy with this statement. with da45 you have to use MORE control of and with your body because the imputs you give are amplified with the action. the same imputs are needed, only if you give more than you need, you could get bit. i find 10-15 way to stable for my style of skating. but hey, if you like it who am i.

if your da 10-15 is a stick than da45 is a dog box.

as for the above article. it is just atom paying for advertising, which they definitly know how to do.

Like a robot car, the da/45s do way too much of the work for me...seemingly. What do I know, right?

I tend to put a lot of action into my movement. I'm an ex ballet/tap dancer, ex soccer player so maybe I don't need or like the da/45s because I already know how to move my feet and legs in an agile and lateral way without relying on actiony plates? I get around quite well on a da/15 with soft cushions and slightly loose trucks. The cushions have all of the action I could ever need and my feet and body do the rest of the work. I like it that way. Da/45s seem to be built for people who need more agility in their quick steps, slices, and stride.

As I stated above, I have only tried the top of the line da/45 and I still felt it wasn't for me. That may become a different story in a couple of months when I purchase them and get some time to tune my plates up the way that would work best for me. I'm pretty sensitive to subtle changes in action etc. It seems more pronounced to me than other skaters.

Like I said, I probably know nothing

As far as the stick reference it was my attempt at an example of control over the vehicle, in this case skates. Yes the da/45 is very sensitive to inputs but I view this as lack of ability to steer with the body and feet vs using the skate/plate to do all of the work for you.
Sure it had some great weaves and loops, but no better than a short forward roll line with soft urethane bushings. That and hockey stopping on a da/45 is damn irritating. Any suggestions for stops on them?

Yes. It is clearly a shameless attempt at marketing another plate. I'm still curious what it will look like and how it will function.

[VioletBuckle]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

I find it amazing how so many so called experts, even those with championship skills pontificate about what are the design & performance advantages or disadvantages of a given plate (or class of plates), without ever explaining WHY? Terms like "stability and "squirrely" do not give much indication of what is really happening with the plate dynamics, and why/how performance is affected.

For example, the number one potential advantage "feature" of the DA45 design, especially those that place the front axle very near to right below the center of the pivot ball, is that the pivot carries nearly ALL the skaters weight, and very little gets onto the cushions.

With most shallower action skates, no matter how loose you set the action with them in your hands, once you step into those skates and place your weight on them, the compression of the cushions get an immediate kick upward to a higher level. This means that the force needed to work the action also goes higher as well.

The flip side of this aspect of the DA45 geometry is that at the neutral position, it offers LESS available leverage to compress the cushions and initiate the turning action. However, because the DA45 gives the LEAST amount of skater-weight cushion pre-compression, this lack of leverage is not so big of an issue, and once the axle begins to swing away from being almost directly below the pivot pin, the plates available turning leverage for cushion compression and axle swing ramps up quickly.

In addition to this effect, we also have the fact that the DA45 action geometry produces further axle swing with less plate lean. As to this "feature", the analogy with cars is more like a race car having a steering setup that goes from full left to full right with only 180 degrees of steering wheel rotation.

So knowing how these aspects of the DA45 plate's design function, the question remains as to how they impact the needs of a quad speed skater. Well, those of us who skate speed know that ALL the best speed skater skate LOW -- VERY LOW. Most coaches emphasize this as being the number one requirement for improving your speed -- get lower! Why this is so critical is that the width of your power stroke is limited by how far your hips are away from the floor. The more horizontal you can get your stroke the longer and stronger your stroke can be.

So, knowing that the maximum horizontal power stroke is going to give you the most speed, how do the DA45 plate's features described above impact a skater with their leg going very horizontal and trying to keep all four wheels down? Well, the first concern is the that the ankle must be bending considerably at the peak of the power stroke in order to optimally keep all the wheels equally pressed down onto the floor while negotiating the arc of the turn.

Do the DA45's "features" actually facilitate this process, or do they compromise this process. In my view they perform poorly compared to a less steep action plate (lower kingpin angle). When your ankle is at the maximum bend point while your leg is also in the maximum horizontal position, the DA45 is demanding that you DO NOT lean it over too much as you steer the arc of the curve. It is also reacting with maximum leverage against minimally compressed cushions, which means as you try to deliver the peak push of your power to the floor, you have to really work hard to avoid over-leaning the plate. This means you are trying to keep your ankle LESS BENT over when the leg wants it to bend MORE.

A shallower action (steep kingpin) plate works much better than a DA45 plate at this point in the stroke cycle. It allows the ankle to lean more while still maintaining the proper arc of the curve. This allows the power stroke to go further outward, In addition, for any given amount of ankle twitch, the shallower action produces less turn deviation to take you off your desired track. The better level of cushion leverage and greater level cushion compression developed with the shallower action (steep kingpin) plates, at the peak push point of a power stroke, also makes it a lot easier, as max power is being applied, to maintain the precision needed for sustaining the proper direction of your skate without as much mis-steering or over steering of the plate.

As to the longer plate being better for speed, there is more to think about than just your left-right turning/balance. There is also front-back balance and how it affects your roll. It is easier to maintain proper front-back balance to keep your weight evenly distributed across all four wheels on a longer wheel base. In addition, when you do deviate from your optimum front-back balance point, which inevitably will happen at different stages in the cycle of completing a lap, the longer wheelbase plate will steal less rolling energy as these front-back balance errors occur.

These are not the only reasons that the DA45 will rarely be the choice of elite speed skaters, but they are the main reasons.

-Armadillo

.

So beautifully put, well thought out, and very specific explanation. Thank you.

The above is why I'm having trouble with a da/45. It is very difficult to carry out deep crossovers and push all the way out to a toe flick.

Oversteer seems to be a problem.
That and I'm finding hockey stops to be weird and awkward on a da/45 whereas it is easy on a Roll line driver or even my crappy Powerdyne nylons.

Maybe I need to get used to it as everyone continuously rains a brown storm on me for not really like the action on a da/45. I must be stupid or a terrible skater. I've skated for 26 yrs, 2 of them were spent playing Inline roller hockey, and two playing derby, the last four spent speed skating my ass off.

I am not an expert. I am not Doc and never will be.

But I have been trying to figure out why I just cant get behind these da/45s.
And Armadillo and Fresh Eddie are the only ones, so far, that have given me a sensible answer to my issue.

People who dissent from others with the commonly held opinion are not necessarily trying to be contradictory, I personally just wanted to find out why it wasn't working for me when Da/45s seem to work so well for many.

Thank you for all of the helpful responses. Sorry for hijacking but this has been a very beneficial thread.

Doc- I get irritated with skate companies who pump most of their funds into advertising vs forward thinking engineering, R&D, and a quality product. I'm guessing this plate will also be all flash and no bang. But I always hope for the best and keep an open mind

[elemental]

Originally Posted by VioletBuckle

So beautifully put, well thought out, and very specific explanation. Thank you.

The above is why I'm having trouble with a da/45. It is very difficult to carry out deep crossovers and push all the way out to a toe flick.

That and I'm finding hockey stops to be weird and awkward on a da/45 whereas it is easy on a Roll line driver or even my crappy Powerdyne nylons.

Maybe I need to get used to it as everyone continuously rains a brown storm on me for not really like the action on a da/45. I must be stupid or a terrible skater. I've skated for 26 yrs, 2 of them were spent playing Inline roller hockey, and two playing derby.

I am not an expert. I am not Doc etc.
Bit I have been trying to figure out why I just cant get behind these da/45s
And Armadillo and Fresh Eddie are the only ones, so far, that have given me a sensible answer to my issue.

Doc- I get irritated with skate companies who pump most of their funds into advertise vs forward thinking engineer, R&D, and a quality product. I'm guessing this plate will also be all flash and no bang. Bit I always hope for the best.

what is akward about your hockey stop, lets start there. but i do mine goofy foot or reverse plow stop.

you dont have to like da45 at all. works for some, not for others. if you cant get behind them, dont...people are passionate about what they like (and have their hard earned time and $$ behind)..so the brown storm is expected (here more-so because there is no moderation).

as for atom: im sure their new plate will be amazing and all the oly girls will be skating it :/....

[VioletBuckle]

It's not a big deal. It's a forum. I didn't get my feelings hurt

I'm just frustrated that others seem to like them immediately while they simply felt alien to me. My only concern is learning and figuring out why, to the best of my ability whilst attempting to understand others explanation and imagining what they might mean exactly.

Hockey stops. It's the grip and snap back. It's not the wheel grip as the wheels I tested the on the da45, i was comfortable with on a da/15.

Like armadillo stated, when you attempt to apply pressure to the floor with a wide stance, the plate seems to grab too much and then transfer some energy back with a little snap.

I hockey stop/deep carve laterally turning my wheels with my ankles and feet, my feet like to swing wider than my shoulder. Into the slide, I'm almost in a sitting position with my front foot forward acting as wide stabilizer and my back foot into a front slide is shoulder width. I use the my entire foot and ankle to slice and slide. My weight typically pitches back with the force so I lean into that to maintain balance. Watch hockey players. This is how I do it.

On da/45 if I attempt this kind of slide/hockey stop, I feel as if my ankles want to break. Even running soft cushions. If I loosen the action in the trucks and get a higher durometer wheel it is possible. But then it is difficult to grip in the corners and I find the fast transfer of energy or twitch unbearable.

Its just not working for me so far. Still going to buy a da/45 so I can figure this out but any helpful suggestions are always welcome

[HK47]

Originally Posted by VioletBuckle

... Hockey stops. It's the grip and snap back. It's not the wheel grip as the wheels I used I was comfortable with on a da/15. ...

The vast majority of folks running DA45s need harder wheels than they would on 10/15 degree plates as all four stay flat to the floor for more ... time

[VioletBuckle]

Maybe the term I'm looking for is parallel slide?

This is what I cannot seem to do on a da/45. Inlines are easy to do this on, and I can make it work on a quad da/15.

Why not a on a da/45?

This is what I'm trying to replicate at a fast speed on da\45. I hate this song and the guy doesn't squat as much as I do, but it gets the point across.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysus9...e_gdata_player

[VioletBuckle]

Originally Posted by HK47

The vast majority of folks running DA45s need harder wheels than they would on 10/15 degree plates as all four stay flat to the floor for more ... time

I think you may be onto something

[elemental]

Originally Posted by VioletBuckle

Maybe the term I'm looking for is parallel slide?

This is what I cannot seem to do on a da/45. Inlines are easy to do this on, and I can make it work on a quad da/15.

Why not a on a da/45?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlnno...e_gdata_player

powerslide. we do them the same (i played ice hockey for 9 years and roller for 5). i am naturally an inline skater. i actually skate on quads like an ice/inline player would skate. not pretty but effective. im with hk on it.. i use 97-100a (white shamans, purple rains) wheels (but i am 230 plus lbs) to hockey/power stop. the only plow stops i do are while skating backwards.

on da45 to find my slide point i started at a fairly fast pace and skated in a shrinking radius circle until the skates began to break loose. once they did i quickly flipped my heel in (to lock in the slide) and shifted my weight to my plant foot (low and wide apart are my feet). once i was comphy with where i would slide these plates i began quickly shifting into the slide point.

[VioletBuckle]

Elemental- that is comforting to know that you played hockey as well. Four years ago, switching back to quads from inlines was a different experience.

I may just need more time with this. I tried your suggestion on a Snyder and green wicked lips, which I think are a pretty high durometer wheel. Just felt really weird, unstable, with still too much grip coming from the plate yet the wheels were sliding.

I think the issue will become learning to tune them properly and readjusting til i find the proper sweet spot. It does give me hope that you might skate similarly and be able to perform the same moves on a da/45. I am about 165-170, skate on slick polished concrete and treated wood floors. I really like the white shamans as you stated, and skate the 93A green ones for officiating derby on our slick concrete.

Who says hockey style skating isn't pretty? It can be beautifully violent and powerful

[rufusprime99]

Hockey stops and DA45 are not the best of friends, and a 10 degree will likely ALWAYS do that better. But if the DA45 transition is not going well, work it from the hard end. Put in red cushions. Maybe you need to ease into more turning, not jump into it. I could not get up to and carry speed well with a softer DA45 setup. I can do it better now that I am on reds. Give it a whirl. Explore.

[Reserector]

First I said:
Reserector said...
Doug Glass wrote: "19 degree doesn’t over-react; it remains under you and responds on demand."
I found that the most redeeming factor of the 45º DA is that it can be kept under you BECAUSE is reacts quickly.

Based on this very opinionated article, I wonder if Doug has ever skated any other style besides speed. Speed skating involves high speeds on a large oval. Roller derby has neither of those.

Maybe a compromise plate is overdue, though. Who's to say that a 20º to 30º plate wouldn't be a better fit for some skaters. With the populatity of roller derby, we just might see some plate development.



Then they said:
Atom said...
Reserector - Thank you for your feedback. The post is biased on our opinions of a company that has our entire lives involved in world level skating experience. Atomatrix in speed and derby, Tannibal Lector in hockey, speed and derby and Doug Glass in speed and hockey.

Based off past speed skaters currently skating derby today and their current plate of choice we believe it's safe to say speed and derby are more alike then people would like to admit. 45* is not a choice of any of the past speed skaters skating derby today. I can see where skaters without a skating background feel the freedom of movement because it's so squirrely - you can move without moving your body properly. As the skater progresses, they will want a plate that they can control, not the other way around.

New plate development is well under way...



Then I said:
Atom said "I can see where skaters without a skating background feel the freedom of movement because it's so squirrely - you can move without moving your body properly."

Frankly, I am insulted by that comment. I am by no means a new skater. I personally prefer my DA45s over my DA10s because they give me MORE edge control, and react quickly. They suit me because my moves are quick. The choice is based on performance, not my ignorance of proper form.

Atom said "Based off past speed skaters currently skating derby today and their current plate of choice we believe it's safe to say speed and derby are more alike then people would like to admit. 45* is not a choice of any of the past speed skaters skating derby today."

I will not even try to dissagree because that statement is pure opinion and conjecture. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to share mine.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by VioletBuckle

I've never been one to get on the da/45 train with everyone else. Fantastic for people who love them, but not for me.
I find them squirrely. I don't want my plate to do all of the work for me. I use my foot position, body, and excellent cushions/bushings to take care of the action I need. My feet, knees, shoulders, hips and toes are my steering wheel.

I look at the da/45 as an automatic shifting transmission...vs a da/10-15 which is to me more like a manual or stick shift transmission.
Personally I think a race car driver gets more control out of a vehicle with manual transmission vs robot car automatic. I think this is why I favor the Roll Lines over the Snyder da/45. I feel like my my body action controls the skate more than the skate is controlling my movements and body.

I think this is in line with what I have felt about DA45 vs 10 degree and skater skill. A very accomplished 10 degree skater can do some great stuff. A lower skilled skater cannot do great stuff on a 10 degree, but can do a lot more on a DA45. As I approach the 2 year mark of skating DA45, my skills have improved. I don't always have to depend on the action to do things and I am on harder cushions because I am liking a bit more control, and I can get things done on one axle instead of just depending on action. If a skater is skilled enough to do great things on a 10 degree, well great. (because there is not great action, this means doing quick little maneuvers on a single axle. Doable, but not for a beginner) But for lower to moderately skilled skater, the lions share of skaters, they will likely be able to do more and have more fun with the "automatic", DA45.

[Armadillo]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Hockey stops and DA45 are not the best of friends, and a 10 degree will likely ALWAYS do that better. But if the DA45 transition is not going well, work it from the hard end. Put in red cushions. Maybe you need to ease into more turning, not jump into it. I could not get up to and carry speed well with a softer DA45 setup. I can do it better now that I am on reds. Give it a whirl. Explore.

Plenty of non-DA45 skates will turn just as sharply as the DA45s will.
However, they will simply require MORE plate lean to reach this level of turning sharpness. Some of us can easily use our bodies, legs, and ankles to produce this increased amount of plate lean, especially with well optimized suspensions, and we don't need any DA45 plates to get all the turning we want or need from our plates.

True, it may take us a few miliseconds longer to get our skates leaned over to the degree we need them to reach, but we will have a better chance of nailing the correct amount of lean with less chance of overshoot or undershoot.

If you like being able to just twitch your foot angle and have your skate zoom off to the left or right, then DA45s are a good way to go. Some of us expect our skates to deliver more than just quick sharp turning though, thingslike getting as much of our power down onto the floor as possible matter to us, and it is in some of these other performance categories that the DA45s simply do not deliver as well as other shallower action plates do. This does not make DA45s bad plates, but it does make them a dubious choice for serious speed skaters.

It is mainly a question of skating priorities and style. In the end though, if you want me to believe that DA45s are good speed skates, you are going to have to point to some people standing on the quad speed winners podium who are skating on them at competitions. From what I have seen, there are very few winners choosing to roll with them.

[Armadillo]

In order to do good hockey stops you want to be able to set the wheels NEAR to, but NOT RIGHT AT, 90 degrees to the direction of your motion.
One "feature" of the DA45 action geometry is that as the trucks swing through the motion of their action, the arc of travel traced by the tips of the axle ends swings in a much more horizontal plane, more parallel to the floor than with the steeper kingpin plates. Because the DA45 trucks move in a much closer to horizontal plane, it means that when you try to use them to generate stopping force, the horizontal force being applied to them tends to swing them into a position that puts the axles closer to 90 degrees to the direction of travel. This makes the wheels tend to stick in place on the floor and roll the ankle over.

With steeper kingpin plates, more of the stopping force converts into vertical swing motion of the trucks, and less goes into horizontal swing. The result is that it is easier to keep the axles away from hitting the exact 90 degrees to the slide direction position that has the wheels stop rolling and makes you stick in place on the floor.

-Armadillo

[VioletBuckle]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

Plenty of non-DA45 skates will turn just as sharply as the DA45s will.
However, they will simply require MORE plate lean to reach this level of turning sharpness. Some of us can easily use our bodies, legs, and ankles to produce this increased amount of plate lean, especially with well optimized suspensions, and we don't need any DA45 plates to get all the turning we want or need from our plates.

This seems to be the trouble I am having? I can't get the da/45 to lean like a 10-15 degree while still keeping all four on the floor. When I try to lean hard on the 45s it wants to fight me and snap back.

True, it may take us a few miliseconds longer to get our skates leaned over to the degree we need them to reach, but we will have a better chance of nailing the correct amount of lean with less chance of overshoot or undershoot.

Oversteer is the problem that I seem to be having. Then I have to correct the oversteer which in turn shoots me off into another direction. It reminds me of the way some American cars oversteer, Corvette?, then when correcting from the line the car wants to take vs the line I want to take, it oversteers again. Obviously a da/45 is a better than an American car but this is the only way I can accurately explain what I'm feeling. Hope it's not a bad comparison. Not trying to insult anyone

I tend to like the action, suspension, turning, shifting that Japanese and German cars are famous for. A Porsche 911, Nissan Z, Acura NSX is the kind of feeling i want my plates to have.
Some will tell you that these cars have oversteer and some oversteer can be a wonderful and exciting thing which is why I think a lot of people like the da/45. I have had the most luck with Roll lines so far. I like the control and smooth performance, a suspension that holds the line and center of gravity in the turns without having to fight for control. I like to weave and turn sharply without having to worry about over or understeer or fishtailing. This is what I'm looking for in a solid plate

If you like being able to just twitch your foot angle and have your skate zoom off to the left or right, then DA45s are a good way to go.
I do not like this at all
Some of us expect our skates to deliver more than just quick sharp turning though, thingslike getting as much of our power down onto the floor as possible matter to us, and it is in some of these other performance categories that the DA45s simply do not deliver as well as other shallower action plates do. This does not make DA45s bad plates, but it does make them a dubious choice for serious speed skaters.
I do seem to have issues powering through the turns on them. I admit that I have only borrowed several skates with a da45 setup bc I like to try before I buy. So maybe this is an issue of generally being ignorant on how to tune the action on these plates. It does seem that it shouldn't be this difficult to get the sweet spot. Maybe there needs a to be more idiot proof da/45 that dont require so much tuning to get proper action?

It is mainly a question of skating priorities and style. In the end though, if you want me to believe that DA45s are good speed skates, you are going to have to point to some people standing on the quad speed winners podium who are skating on them at competitions. From what I have seen, there are very few winners choosing to roll with them.

Is there ever anyone on a quad speed skating podium using da/45s? Im legitimately asking bc I have no idea. I never competed in any events. I'm considering it I will admit that derby is different from long track speed skating. My rink is a decently large one and I do like the fifteen degree action for serious quad speed. Derby, in my very humble opinion, is a mixture of several things depending on your position. Speed skating is a necessity for derby in my opinion. I can get great action from the 15 degree Roll line driver with plates shorter than most speed plates and mounted forward for derby. I think the plate size is what is most important for the short track. Tighter turns seem easier when my plate is shorter and i run soft cushions.

The short track does lend itself better to da/45 for a lot of skaters because of the tight turns. If that works best for a skater in the sport, one should use what is available to get the best performance for the available skills that player has.
Hockey stops and power skating is important for derby. Being able to move the feet, knees and ankles explosively like a power skater or hockey skater is imperative for catching a jammer who has more speed when you. The da/45 does have that snap that I talked about which does help with this explosion of foot speed. The problem is maintaining control throughout the explosive leg, knee, ankle, foot maneuvers. I can only speak for myself. It may work amazingly for da/45 skaters who have figured out the best action for them.

Dancing/figures/loops. Da/45 was wonderful for this. If one doesnt have as much experience as a seasoned dancer, figure skater the da/45s make these types of actions much easier.

Im not trying to tell anyone what to do. I don't know your experience level, what you use your plates for, and how tune/ use them. I love that there are so many different types of plates for everything, and if I have it my way, I will own and skate on every single piece of skate equipment I can get my hands on.
If you spent good money on quality gear(da45 or not)I'm not trying to tell you that you are a bad skater or that your plates are crap. Far from it. I'm just attempting to understand why I haven't had much luck with the da45s I have tried. They may just not suit me and some others, in the end.

I will say that I pay attention to action adjustement, cushions etc more than any of my derby mates. If I am having trouble figuring out the best action to make these work, chances are many of my league mates will be lost completely. Then again because they don't pay attention to and question these things endlessly, many of them figure they just cant skate well and give up completely. I would like to understand this better in order to find better action for those skaters who aren't as seasoned and want to make their da/45 plates work better for them.

[Amefyst]

This is seriously sending me for a loop! I love my da 45s. Seriously fun and great lateral slicing. I feel like when I swoop in for a lateral hit I actually accelerate at my target without effort.

But I have lost speed. Weather or not that is due to my patriot boot height will be seen when I get my new quad racer carbons.

I do respect atomatrix a ton though...

I'm also starting to think instead of a kicking edge carbon fiber plate and sure grip trucks I should have sprung for a royal

[TLicalzi]

I just tried DA45 for the first time the other night. I liked the way they felt. I'm not sure why yet... I'm gonna keep training on them.

I have not been able to get comfy on anything but SA trucks. I sold a brand new pair of Prolines on Ebay because I couldn't get them to work for me. The same skate with a SA Laser and I was doing great!

I had a pair of Oberhamer 61's on an XK-4 with Sure Grip interceptors that I liked, but rarely used because they are so mint. I put some DA45's on them with Flips (just for cool factor) and really dug 'em!

[Poobah]

I found DA45s uncomfy on my old wheels of choice, green Fugitives. I switched 'em out for yellow Fugitive Mids, and suddenly I could T stop, plow stop, all that stuff with something close to ease.

Thing to realize is that these plates like to keep all four on the floor. So you may want there to be less on the floor. Or just something firmer on the floor. I went with less wheel. One thing I hate that Sure-Grip does is put these plates in a package with Fugitives. Some of the grippiest wide wheels out there.

[Darkjester]

Not to hate on Atom Skates, Doug Glass, Julie (atomatrix), or Tannibal.

But. They've been skating their preferred disciplines for SOOOO long, that perhaps the reason they assume that their model is better is because they haven't given the SFDA45 its fair chance because they are too comfortable with their old standby.

[TLicalzi]

I've always had trouble doing a plow stop. I can perform the technique, but no matter what floor, or wheel, my heels will not break traction. I never thought that the trucks would be causing that. I just figured I wasn't limber enough. Any suggestions on how to tune a SA Laser to make plow stopping easier?