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Slalom Cone Skating Forum Discussions about slalom cone skating, high-jump, and other freestyle trick skating. (Note that vert, street, and park skating discussions should be posted in our aggressive skating forum.)

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Old August 18th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #1
carlosesantos
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Default Needing help to approach a hard trick

Hi guys I'm having trouble learning the heel-toe screw (Korean spin or whatever you guys call it lol). I've been trying it for what? 6 months and It is not happening. Do you guys have any tips to help me conquer this trick? I know it is composed of two pivots the volte and the J-turn. What are some other base tricks or exercises to help with this trick? Do you know of any video tutorials about this trick?

Last edited by carlosesantos; August 18th, 2015 at 12:33 PM. Reason: heel-toe screw, hard tricks, slalom tricks, advice, inline skate slalom, korean spin
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Old August 19th, 2015, 01:10 AM   #2
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I learned this move very quickly (admittedly on quads, but I can do it on the corner of one wheel per foot as well as on two wheels per foot).

It took me about 5 hours of intense practice one afternoon to be able get 4 rotations; but they were really forced with lots of upper body twist and unwanted arm movements. It then took me a further 6 months to get it to the point where I was happy with it (i.e. completely motionless body with no visible means of rotation).

It's an easy move to do badly, but a difficult move to do well.

I can do all three variations of the Heel Toe Screw (no cone cross, one cone cross, and two cone cross) on 80s. I can also do the one cone cross version on pretty much any cone spacing from 40cm up to 2m plus.

I learned the move by being able to do cobra first, and then learning to weight shift so as to "walk" the rotation.

I have taught several inliners (some of whom are slalom competitors) how to do the move. However, it's difficult for me to give you advice when I can't see what you're doing wrong.

A video of you would help.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 01:30 AM   #3
Dontburnout
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Cool

Welcome to the forum, saw your intro,

...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdxRHLLUL88

Note how he shifts his body weight
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Old August 19th, 2015, 01:42 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dontburnout View Post

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdxRHLLUL88

Note how he shifts his body weight
That's a Heel Heel Swan, not a Heel Toe Screw.

The weight shift aspect is somewhat similar, but it's a different direction / leading leg, different wheel, and totally different stance.

I have found slalom tutorials to be virtually non-existent (which is bizarre for such a technical discipline). Most of the videos labelled as "tutorials" are just someone doing the move, without any kind of breakdown or explanation.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 02:18 AM   #5
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My bad...it was labeled Korean twist.


Some tutorials here:
Http://m.youtube.com/user/SkateFreestyleMenu

Click the videos tab at top middle, click sho more videos at bottom middle
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Old August 19th, 2015, 08:12 AM   #6
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screw-type tricks are what i consider the next biggest skill jump after the crazy (first trick to shift weight forwards and backwards in one trick).

a few things you need to do for the screw-type tricks:

- knees locked in together - some people wear kneepads which may hinder your ability to keep your knees locked in. what i mean by knees locked in is that one kneecap is pretty much resting in the groove behind the other knee. ideally you would want to keep the lock as steady as possible

- work on a good entry. i recommend sun/cross entry. if you are rightfooted (anti clockwise rotation) you need to enter left sun/cross. if you are leftfooted, you use the right sun/cross.

- back relatively straight. dont lean over.

- finally, the aspect that really helped me rotate more than once/twice is that i THINK and TRY to turn my shoulders. rather than moving your arms to get the extra rotation, i find it a lot easier to feel the turn in my shoulders. my head will look along the direction of rotation and i'm not sure how else to explain other than "try" to turn the shoulders without spinning your waist into a knot

let me know how it goes!
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Old August 19th, 2015, 04:07 PM   #7
carlosesantos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev0 View Post
screw-type tricks are what i consider the next biggest skill jump after the crazy (first trick to shift weight forwards and backwards in one trick).

a few things you need to do for the screw-type tricks:

- knees locked in together - some people wear kneepads which may hinder your ability to keep your knees locked in. what i mean by knees locked in is that one kneecap is pretty much resting in the groove behind the other knee. ideally you would want to keep the lock as steady as possible

- work on a good entry. i recommend sun/cross entry. if you are rightfooted (anti clockwise rotation) you need to enter left sun/cross. if you are leftfooted, you use the right sun/cross.

- back relatively straight. dont lean over.

- finally, the aspect that really helped me rotate more than once/twice is that i THINK and TRY to turn my shoulders. rather than moving your arms to get the extra rotation, i find it a lot easier to feel the turn in my shoulders. my head will look along the direction of rotation and i'm not sure how else to explain other than "try" to turn the shoulders without spinning your waist into a knot

let me know how it goes!
Thanks Kev0 for the tips, my entry is ok I cross with the left foot to rotate anti-clockwise. I can rotate around one cone but I can't figure out a way of making the screw move lol. I don't wear kneepads so the locking of the knees is not an issue. The tip for the shoulders sounds great! I'll try that. How long did it take you to master this trick? I think i'm getting close but patience is key here lol.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 04:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadster View Post
I learned this move very quickly (admittedly on quads, but I can do it on the corner of one wheel per foot as well as on two wheels per foot).

It took me about 5 hours of intense practice one afternoon to be able get 4 rotations; but they were really forced with lots of upper body twist and unwanted arm movements. It then took me a further 6 months to get it to the point where I was happy with it (i.e. completely motionless body with no visible means of rotation).

It's an easy move to do badly, but a difficult move to do well.

I can do all three variations of the Heel Toe Screw (no cone cross, one cone cross, and two cone cross) on 80s. I can also do the one cone cross version on pretty much any cone spacing from 40cm up to 2m plus.

I learned the move by being able to do cobra first, and then learning to weight shift so as to "walk" the rotation.

I have taught several inliners (some of whom are slalom competitors) how to do the move. However, it's difficult for me to give you advice when I can't see what you're doing wrong.

A video of you would help.
Thank you so much for the tips. I think shooting a video is a good way to analyse my mistakes. That's great for skating in general. Screw is a wonderful trick. As soon as I master it all shoot a tutorial as too help other people to do it. Slalom is really a great challenge.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 06:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadster View Post
That's a Heel Heel Swan, not a Heel Toe Screw.

The weight shift aspect is somewhat similar, but it's a different direction / leading leg, different wheel, and totally different stance.

I have found slalom tutorials to be virtually non-existent (which is bizarre for such a technical discipline). Most of the videos labelled as "tutorials" are just someone doing the move, without any kind of breakdown or explanation.
You're right, the only people that I know of that make real tutorials are Naomi Grigg and Sinead howick. When it comes to slalom on quads, oh yeah you don't see a thing.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 06:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dontburnout View Post
Welcome to the forum, saw your intro,

...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XdxRHLLUL88

Note how he shifts his body weight
Hi Dontburnout that's an ugly variation of the screw lol I'm intending to learn only the hee-toe and the toe-toe screw.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 07:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by carlosesantos View Post
I can rotate around one cone but I can't figure out a way of making the screw move lol.
When you say that you can't make it "move", do you mean that you can't make it travel forward from one cone to the next, or do you mean that you cannot get it to continue rotating?

If you mean that you cannot get it to travel forward, then that is a problem that many people have when doing this move. It's caused by not "walking" the turn (as I mentioned above).

When I say "walking" the turn, I mean pivoting with weight shifts from foot-to-foot for each half-turn. If you have your weight on a foot then it's much more difficult to move it, so unweighting at the correct time is very important for any foot that needs to move.

The simplest way that I can think to describe this 'walking' motion is if you imagine rotating a 'divider' tool along a line on a map (https://youtu.be/acjLdnOmgjo?t=19s) except that each half-turn is done in the same direction rather than back and forth as shown in the video.

The turn therefore consists of two halves:

The first half is rotating from facing backwards to facing forwards. For this half of the rotation your weight should be almost all on your toe wheel of the crossed-over leg (which would be your right leg if you are rotating anti-clockwise). This allows you to unweight the straight extended leg (which is on the heel wheel) and unweighting allows it to easily rotate in an arc. That's the easy part because it's quite similar to a J-turn.

The second half is the most difficult section, and it's this part of the move that gives you the forward travel from cone to cone.

You have to turn from facing forwards to facing backwards, and doing this requires the crossed-over bent leg (on the toe wheel) to move in an arc around the straight extended leg that is on the heel wheel. To make this happen you must shift all of your weight off the toe wheel and onto the heel wheel. In fact if you do it correctly then you should be able to briefly lift the toe wheel of your bent leg completely off the ground! By 'standing' all your weight on the heel wheel of your extended leg you will automatically unweight the bent leg, and this makes it easier to move the bent leg and rotate it in an arc.

The second thing that you need to do during this forwards to backwards part of the move, is to "fall" into it. In other words, you lean back as if you are about to fall flat on your back. Gravity then pulls you, and just as you are about to lose control you rotate and convert that falling motion into rotation by pivoting on your heel wheel of the straight extended leg. This rotation is assisted by pulling the bent leg forward in an arc.

In reality, both feet travel during this section of the move, but for the purposes of learning it, it's best to think of one foot being still and the other foot rotating around it.

The lean back also means that your legs are not directly underneath your body, instead they are out in front of your body and not directly under your body's weight. This makes it easier to sweep your legs round in an arc, and it's the sweep from facing forwards to facing backward that gives you the forward travel from cone to cone. The less you stand on your heel, the more weight you will have on your bent leg, and therefore the more restricted that leg will be in moving forward.

Once you've completed the 2nd half of the turn, you then need to start the cycle again, and this requires a weight shift back onto the toe wheel of the bent leg so that the extended leg can be unweighted and swept round in a J-turn style arc again (as you did previously).

As with almost all slalom moves, the timing of these weight shifts are crucial. Even if you do all the correct body positions and weight shifts, if you do the weight shifts at the wrong time (or if one leg becomes out of sync with the other leg) then it will not work.

The mistake that most people make is assuming that a heel to screw works similarly to a J-turn; it does not. They may have a similar (but not identical) leg position, but the way they rotate are totally different. A J-turn is a momentum move, therefore it gets all of its energy from the transition going into it. On the other hand a well-performed heel toe screw generates it own rotation. If you're doing the move correctly, you should be able to start heel toe screwing from a complete standstill with no transition into it at all.

A good training exercise (that I used to do when I was teaching myself this move) is to stand completely still in the heel toe screw position and then try to alternately lift on one foot completely off the ground, and then do the same for the other foot. Lifting the bent leg (on the toe wheel) off the ground is easier. Lifting the straight extended leg (on the heel wheel) is harder, but by repeating this exercise it really trains you to weight and unweight properly.

At first you will barely be able to lift either foot without being very unstable, but after a while you should be able to stand for about 2 seconds on just the heel wheel or just the toe wheel.

When you're comfortable with that training exercise, do the same foot lifts but this time turn 180 degrees while on the one foot. In other words stand completely still in the heel toe screw position, then lift your bent leg so that you are balancing only on the heel wheel of your extended leg, and while doing that rotate 180 degrees using the heel wheel as a pivot point, before putting the other foot down. Then lift the heel wheel of your extended leg and balance only on the toe wheel of your bent leg, and do another 180 degree turn (this time pivoting on the toe wheel of your bent leg) and then put the other foot down when the half turn is done.

Keep repeating this exercise and you'll soon automatically start doing the correct weight shifting at the correct time.

Obviously you do not completely lift your foot off the ground when doing the actual finished heel to screw move; that's just for practice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kev0 View Post
what i mean by knees locked in is that one kneecap is pretty much resting in the groove behind the other knee. ideally you would want to keep the lock as steady as possible
This is good advice.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 07:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by carlosesantos View Post
You're right, the only people that I know of that make real tutorials are Naomi Grigg and Sinead howick. When it comes to slalom on quads, oh yeah you don't see a thing.
Yes, those are the only proper slalom tutorials that I have seen too.

Naomi is a friend of mine, so I should hassle her to make some more slalom tutorials, but she's currently obsessed with learning aggressive skating at the moment.
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Old August 19th, 2015, 07:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by carlosesantos View Post
Hi Dontburnout that's an ugly variation of the screw lol I'm intending to learn only the hee-toe and the toe-toe screw.
It doesn't need to be ugly, that guy just doesn't do the move very well. Admittedly he is doing the swan version rather than the screw (which is somewhat more difficult).

I do heel heel screw (not the heel heel swan) plus some of my own variations on it, and it looks way better than what he did in that video.

Here's an example of what heel heel screw can look like when it's done well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-qP...youtu.be&t=29s
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Old August 19th, 2015, 07:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadster View Post
When you say that you can't make it "move", do you mean that you can't make it travel forward from one cone to the next, or do you mean that you cannot get it to continue rotating?

If you mean that you cannot get it to travel forward, then that is a problem that many people have when doing this move. It's caused by not "walking" the turn (as I mentioned above).

When I say "walking" the turn, I mean pivoting with weight shifts from foot-to-foot for each half-turn. If you have your weight on a foot then it's much more difficult to move it, so unweighting at the correct time is very important for any foot that needs to move.

The simplest way that I can think to describe this 'walking' motion is if you imagine rotating a 'divider' tool along a line on a map (https://youtu.be/acjLdnOmgjo?t=19s) except that each half-turn is done in the same direction rather than back and forth as shown in the video.

The turn therefore consists of two halves:

The first half is rotating from facing backwards to facing forwards. For this half of the rotation your weight should be almost all on your toe wheel of the crossed-over leg (which would be your right leg if you are rotating anti-clockwise). This allows you to unweight the straight extended leg (which is on the heel wheel) and unweighting allows it to easily rotate in an arc. That's the easy part because it's quite similar to a J-turn.

The second half is the most difficult section, and it's this part of the move that gives you the forward travel from cone to cone.

You have to turn from facing forwards to facing backwards, and doing this requires the crossed-over bent leg (on the toe wheel) to move in an arc around the straight extended leg that is on the heel wheel. To make this happen you must shift all of your weight off the toe wheel and onto the heel wheel. In fact if you do it correctly then you should be able to briefly lift the toe wheel of your bent leg completely off the ground! By 'standing' all your weight on the heel wheel of your extended leg you will automatically unweight the bent leg, and this makes it easier to move the bent leg and rotate it in an arc.

The second thing that you need to do during this forwards to backwards part of the move, is to "fall" into it. In other words, you lean back as if you are about to fall flat on your back. Gravity then pulls you, and just as you are about to lose control you rotate and convert that falling motion into rotation by pivoting on your heel wheel of the straight extended leg. This rotation is assisted by pulling the bent leg forward in an arc.

In reality, both feet travel during this section of the move, but for the purposes of learning it, it's best to think of one foot being still and the other foot rotating around it.

The lean back also means that your legs are not directly underneath your body, instead they are out in front of your body and not directly under your body's weight. This makes it easier to sweep your legs round in an arc, and it's the sweep from facing forwards to facing backward that gives you the forward travel from cone to cone. The less you stand on your heel, the more weight you will have on your bent leg, and therefore the more restricted that leg will be in moving forward.

Once you've done completed the 2nd half of the turn, you then need to start the cycle again, and this requires a weight shift back onto the toe wheel of the bent leg so that the extended leg can be unweighted and swept round in a J-turn style arc again (as you did previously).

As with almost all slalom moves, the timing of these weight shifts are crucial. Even if you do all the correct body positions and weight shifts, if you do the weight shifts at the wrong time (or if one leg becomes out of sync with the other leg) then it will not work.

The mistake that most people make is assuming that a heel to screw works similarly to a J-turn; it does not. They may have a similar (but not identical) leg position, but the way they rotate are totally different. A J-turn is a momentum move, therefore it gets all of its energy from the transition going into it. On the other hand a well-performed heel toe screw generates it own rotation. If you're doing the move correctly, you should be able to start heel toe screwing from a complete standstill with no transition into it at all.

A good training exercise (that I used to do when I was teaching myself this move) is to stand completely still in the heel toe screw position and then try to alternately lift on one foot completely off the ground, and then do the same for the other foot. Lifting the bent leg (on the toe wheel) off the ground is easier. Lifting the straight extended leg (on the heel wheel) is harder, but by repeating this exercise it really trains you to weight and unweight properly.

At first you will barely be able to lift either foot without being very unstable, but after a while you should be able to stand for about 2 seconds on just the heel wheel or just the toe wheel.

When you're comfortable with that training exercise, do the same foot lifts but this time turn 180 degrees while on the one foot. In other words stand completely still in the heel toe screw position, then lift your bent leg so that you are balancing only on the heel wheel of your extended leg, and while doing that rotate 180 degrees using the heel wheel as a pivot point, before putting the other foot down. Then lift the heel wheel of your extended leg and balance only on the toe wheel of your bent leg, and do another 180 degree turn (this time pivoting on the toe wheel of your bent leg) and then put the other foot down when the half turn is done.

Keep repeating this exercise and you'll soon automatically start doing the correct weight shifting at the correct time.

Obviously you do not completely lift your foot off the ground when doing the actual finished heel to screw move; that's just for practice.



This is good advice.
Wow after this post we could right a book on this trick. I'll think about all the observations and see how it goes in practice. Thank you so much for taking the time to breaking down this trick. It'll sure help lots of people who have the same problem as mine. Actually I had both problems, controlling the rotation and getting it to move forward. So you when right on the money!
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Old August 20th, 2015, 10:47 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by carlosesantos View Post
I'll think about all the observations and see how it goes in practice. Thank you so much for taking the time to breaking down this trick. It'll sure help lots of people who have the same problem as mine. Actually I had both problems, controlling the rotation and getting it to move forward. So you when right on the money!
You're welcome. Let us all know how you get on with the practice exercises.

The slalom video link that I posted above shows a good example of using backwards lean to get your legs out from underneath you (so that your legs can be rotated in an arc more easily).

In the heel heel screw move at 28 seconds, she is obviously doing a no-cone cross, but there is a similar body position used in a two-cone cross as well.

The one-cone cross is different; a bit more upright. This is due to the bent leg needing to be pulled back to enable forward movement after each cone cross.
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Old August 20th, 2015, 03:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Thanks Kev0 for the tips, my entry is ok I cross with the left foot to rotate anti-clockwise. I can rotate around one cone but I can't figure out a way of making the screw move lol. I don't wear kneepads so the locking of the knees is not an issue. The tip for the shoulders sounds great! I'll try that. How long did it take you to master this trick? I think i'm getting close but patience is key here lol.
unfortunately, i foolishly practiced the screw without cones, and i have a mental block when it comes to moving screw with cones. i can do the moving screw, and i theoretically know where to place the foot before rotating, but i just keep knocking cones over. fortunately, i'm not that fond of the trick, and i actually prefer the stationary screw in one cone as a style-type trick. (this just means i'm no master haha)

Quote:
The simplest way that I can think to describe this 'walking' motion is if you imagine rotating a 'divider' tool along a line on a map (https://youtu.be/acjLdnOmgjo?t=19s) except that each half-turn is done in the same direction rather than back and forth as shown in the video.
the trick with a pivot as funnily enough called the compass (just like the video)
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Old August 21st, 2015, 11:34 PM   #17
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unfortunately, i foolishly practiced the screw without cones, and i have a mental block when it comes to moving screw with cones.
I learned it off the cones too (because I am not a slalom skater, so I originally had no intention of ever doing this move on the cones). However, despite me learning this move without cones, it in no way stopped me from subsequently learning all 3 heel toe screw variations on the cones when I changed my mind later on.

Sure, it was a pain in the ar*e to begin with (because you have to be SO much more precise when there are cones involved) but that's the same for any move. In fact it was the extreme precision required to do this trick on the cones that made me decide to take up the challenge. These days I do it without even thinking about it, and it's one of the easiest moves that I do. I therefore don't believe that learning a move off the cones necessarily puts anyone at a disadvantage.

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the trick with a pivot is funnily enough called the compass (just like the video)
Ah, well that makes perfect sense.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 12:27 PM   #18
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That's great! It's the challenges inherent in the skating that keeps us going. In my case if it wasn't for slalom I wouldn't be skating regularly. It puts our persistence and concentration to the test.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 05:58 PM   #19
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It's the challenges inherent in the skating that keeps us going .... It puts our persistence and concentration to the test.
Agreed. Especially with the slalom moves that I am learning at the moment, which are extremely "challenging" (to say the least).
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Old September 18th, 2015, 02:13 AM   #20
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Hi carlosesantos, have you managed to make any progress with this trick?

You never did say which of the 3 heel-toe screw variations you were trying to learn (i.e. no cone cross, one cone cross, or two cone cross).

Most people start with the no cone cross variation because it's the easiest one, but they then have problems with crossing the cone line (as well as drifting away from the cones altogether).

I taught myself the one cone cross version first; partly because it looks better than the no cone cross, but mostly because it's more technical and it forced me to stay on the cone line.

Ironically, the no cone cross version was the last of the 3 heel-toe screw variations that I taught myself, but by the time I did, it meant that I had the technical ability to be able to always fully cross the cone line on every single rotation (which most people either fail to do, or are incapable of doing).
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