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Old March 24th, 2017, 05:57 AM   #1
amohrfeld
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Default "The GROOVE" version 1. Skate design concept for comment

I'm trying to built a skate with the following goals:

Max maneuverability
Max stability
Low Cost
Low Deck height (as possible)

I wanted to find a plate I could modify. But found none the fit the goals. So I'm off to built one. Since this is a test setup I'll be using In-line boots with 165mm spacing. Also chose the Snyder Royal trucks.

Essentially I am trying to get the longest cushion possible. Also, I want to get away from the double cones since I think the cones struggle with holding the weight. I think there are stability gains to be had with a longer barrel.

So, Here is my first run at it.

To keep costs in line; all parts except the plate are off the shelf.

The current plan is 2 sure grip barrels and an F16 barrel under the truck.
Thoughts and comments are welcome. Though I will likely be slow to respond due to job and family responsibilities.





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Old March 24th, 2017, 07:24 AM   #2
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[QUOTE=amohrfeld;724875]I'm trying to built a skate with the following goals:

Max maneuverability SO YOU CHOSE A 45 STYLE PLATE
Max stability SOOO YOU CHOSE A 45 STYLE PLATE.
Low Cost OK GOOD
Low Deck height (as possible) NOW WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT

I'm not a fan of 45 plates all your weight is on the edge of the cushion .
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Old March 24th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #3
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The plates I have made fit the first 3 requirements but I wanted MORE deck height so that I could run bigger wheels without scrubbing. 5.5 degree kingpins that will out turn most DA45's
Oh and 292g assembled.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 01:01 PM   #4
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If the goal is to use 165mm mount inline boots, deck height won't be as big a factor.

I'm also not a big fan of 45 degree trucks. I definitely prefer 15 and below.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 01:46 PM   #5
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Looks good! Ive not had an issue with the cones supporting the weight but I use a harder purple cone against the plate. The yellows do the work and if there is a possibility of binding the purples give a little to prevent it. Sort of like a two stage spring setup.
Go by feel rather than typical color/hardness applications. Standard usage of the hardness chart may not correctly apply in our case
The only time I had speed wobbles with this setup is when I blew out the last two yellow cones.
Good job. Keep us posted.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 02:31 PM   #6
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There is some consensus against the DA45 truck. The truth is the DA is still a mystery to me. I can say I'm on DA45 now and am extremely happy. I don't want this to turn into a truck angle discussion, but maybe it should so I can sort it out. So here goes. These are my beliefs to date:

Going to a more vertical king pin allows more vertical loading of my weight in the cushion.
Pushing out the king pin (DA45) puts more weight load on the pivot.
In a perfect DA 45; any skate turns put compression load on the side of the cushion.
The further you move angle from the 45 degree, the more twisting force you apply to the cushion. In my experience the cushion ends stay in place. So I assume the cushion is reacting to the twist.


Snyder recommends a DA 45 plate (Imperial) for dance. And a 15? degree king pin (Superdulux) for freestyle. They claim the DA45 turns better. Also when you pull in the king pin, there is less bending force on the king pin - stronger for jumps. And less turning allows more break-free of the wheels.
But why does DA turn more? Best I can tell, the cushion's resistance to twisting appears stiffer than the compression resistance.

Please comment at will.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #7
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Exclamation !!!

DO NOT confuse ease of turning with rate of turning. 2 different critters. You can make any plate easy to turn. I have 0 plates that turn super easy. They do not turn as quickly however. Quickly as in amount of axle swing vs amount of plate lean.

Basic example of rate of turn. I can turn my Royals sideways in front of my trailing foot (by accident, but oh so exciting) if I get too aggressive on my rolling cross. I have tried to duplicate that on everything I own 15 and less with no success.

In order to actually see this effect, you need to do something a lot of folks don't do.. Scissor. You also need access to more than one pair of sk8s with the appropriate actions to compare. Preferably your own, tuned to your preferences. Then, it will become clear.

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Old March 24th, 2017, 06:38 PM   #8
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Well, do you want a garage project or do you want to skate? LOL

Get an Infinity plate and experiment with axle placements and how they change your skating experience. More fun. More skating.

Need something to tinker with? Make a drone. LOL
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Old March 24th, 2017, 06:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
There is some consensus against the DA45 truck. The truth is the DA is still a mystery to me. I can say I'm on DA45 now and am extremely happy. I don't want this to turn into a truck angle discussion, but maybe it should so I can sort it out. So here goes. These are my beliefs to date:

Going to a more vertical king pin allows more vertical loading of my weight in the cushion.
Pushing out the king pin (DA45) puts more weight load on the pivot.
In a perfect DA 45; any skate turns put compression load on the side of the cushion.
The further you move angle from the 45 degree, the more twisting force you apply to the cushion. In my experience the cushion ends stay in place. So I assume the cushion is reacting to the twist.


Snyder recommends a DA 45 plate (Imperial) for dance. And a 15? degree king pin (Superdulux) for freestyle. They claim the DA45 turns better. Also when you pull in the king pin, there is less bending force on the king pin - stronger for jumps. And less turning allows more break-free of the wheels.
But why does DA turn more? Best I can tell, the cushion's resistance to twisting appears stiffer than the compression resistance.

Please comment at will.
"The further you move angle from the 45 degree, the more twisting force you apply to the cushion. In my experience the cushion ends stay in place. So I assume the cushion is reacting to the twist."

The twisting of the cushions may happen up to a point, but it is a very small amount. Not being actually attached to the trucks or plates mechanically, I feel the cushions stick fairly well to the trucks but cushions rotate a small amount on the kingpin because the cushion cups are also not mechanically attached to the plates. rotation is probably about 20 degrees or so total. It also depends on whether or not someone used lube in the assembly.

ON a DA45, you have the ability to adjust the turn radius of you plate by adding or removing shim. To test this, remove your upper cups, just that bit of thickness will change your radius and input/output ratio. Slowing down the reaction to input. To speed up input, add thickness between the plate and the upper cushion.
Other skate kp angles actually prevent this mod from working correctly. As you shim those out/away from the plate, the truck is jacked out of the pivot cup. If you remove material or the cups the pivot gets loaded much more and the upper cushion gets less and less force put on it.
Since the DA45 truck is shaped the way it is, the kp is almost aligned with the radius of the pivot ball/end allowing this mod to work with out issues. So when the truck is shimmed, it is not moved out of alignment because if follows the arc of the pivot, and the cushions and KP are aligned with it.
This is how I adjust the reaction of my plates. Especially on my test plates. Still got to cut out my long frames for outdoors. 8 1/2" WB. Since they are going to be made on the same fixures I have set up for the F1s I made earlier this year, the reaction may have to be increased due to length. Easily taken care of. Most plate manufacturers like to stay in the ball park on reaction time, but it is easily manipulated. Like an Invader plate, take out the jump bar and things slow down, without any binding or mechanical issues. If it is a long long plate and you want to speed it up, shim it. Since all the frames are cut to the same base angles(cushion bases) , you can expect faster, snappier response on shorter plates and slower the longer your plate gets.

Last edited by fierocious1; March 27th, 2017 at 12:53 PM.
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Old March 26th, 2017, 04:54 AM   #10
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Default Well..

Hit the Lufkin rink tonight. DA45 and Monza wheels work here too. I'm loving it!
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Old March 26th, 2017, 07:58 AM   #11
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Default I met this fella at the rink tonight...

The guy and his buddies were all fantastic skaters. The one dude was jumping into the air and smacking the shiny paper stars hanging from the ceiling. The dude I was talking to did this thing where he skated on the edge of one wheel with his other foot wrapped around his leg for like a half a lap, at speed, dodging slower skaters. I talked to him because he could've been me 20 years ago, as far as body type, glasses, etc. The main difference is that I was *never* that good. So, about the time I tell him that, his buddy (the high-jumping one) says, "Show him your skates!" He did.









Yes. That's a two pieces of square tubing welded to a piece of round, and homebuilt trucks with 5/16" grade 8 bolts welded on for axles. And yes, one of the truck pivots is almost gone, with about 1/8" of material left. When I pointed it out, he admitted that he needs to add some metal there. That was the truck that he was skating on the one wheel on! I told him that I needed some pics, because you guys would never believe it.

On edit: Mods, if this doesn't belong here, feel free to break it out into it's own thread.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snailmont5oh View Post
The guy and his buddies were all fantastic skaters. The one dude was jumping into the air and smacking the shiny paper stars hanging from the ceiling. The dude I was talking to did this thing where he skated on the edge of one wheel with his other foot wrapped around his leg for like a half a lap, at speed, dodging slower skaters. I talked to him because he could've been me 20 years ago, as far as body type, glasses, etc. The main difference is that I was *never* that good. So, about the time I tell him that, his buddy (the high-jumping one) says, "Show him your skates!" He did.
On edit: Mods, if this doesn't belong here, feel free to break it out into it's own thread.
why did he go to so much trouble to build "trucks"? He could have just made up a simple spacer, welded it to the bar and welded the axles to it. Total junk. No telling how good he could skate on "skates". They gotta weigh a ton. Hurting my eyes!! But some peoples junk is another's treasure..
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Old March 27th, 2017, 02:59 PM   #13
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Doc, I've been thinking about that concept all weekend. And must again agree with your comments.

So, It's really about the position of the skater over the skate in relation to the turn angle of the axles.
Is it correct to say that it takes more lean to turn the axles when the pivot angle is steeped (such as your 0 degree setup)?

Snail: Thanks for sharing the pics. One can learn to skate anything with practice. With different setups you can do different moves.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 07:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
Doc, I've been thinking about that concept all weekend. And must again agree with your comments.

I wondered what the smoke down Houston way was....

So, It's really about the position of the skater over the skate in relation to the turn angle of the axles.

That has a big impact on how the sk8r interfaces with the plates. It does not change how the mechanics of the sk8 work.

Is it correct to say that it takes more lean to turn the axles when the pivot angle is steeped (such as your 0 degree setup)?

Be careful with the pivot angle thing. There are some odd ball action geometries that do NO sk8 as you would expect by looking @ them.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 08:15 PM   #15
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Default Wow!

How awesome is that! (Snailmont50h) Those have got to be the strangest looking pair of skates I've ever seen. You have to give the guy credit for ingenuity! The way you describe how well they function for the skater is a mind blower. They might not dazzle but given time & knowledge, who knows what he could come up with. I'm still a beginner & impressed by things I shouldn't be but he had the courage to start building & it works for him.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 11:31 PM   #16
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Default Cushion changes are easy..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post

Be careful with the pivot angle thing. There are some odd ball action geometries that do NO sk8 as you would expect by looking @ them.
The pivot angle thing is no different than experimenting with cushion hardness. On DA45 it is an easy thing to play with, as easy as changing cushions to try it out. And it is bolt on just like cushions, if you don't like what is going on after installation, it can be put back to factory stock, in other words no permanent changes. Any of the SG DA45 with factory jump bars installed are great to experiment with.
The other part of that is that the range is fairly narrow. A little too little and you can't get the skates to turn. Being in the middle in not hard to achieve. Too much shim and you can't control the skate.
Not a permanent change unless you build new plates and deviate from stock or your proven prototype mule's configuration/dimensions. That is the only time it is permanent.
The others(non-DA45) do not easily lend themselves to pivot angle changes.
Anyone interested in playing with their configuration that is in range( close to Houston area ) can put their skates on my analyzer to see what happens with changes made. At least for me it is no big deal. It takes a lot of the mystery away...
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Old March 28th, 2017, 01:57 AM   #17
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By Doc: "That has a big impact on how the sk8r interfaces with the plates. It does not change how the mechanics of the sk8 work."

Yup, that makes sense. But I believe we are interested in a combination of both the skater interaction and plate mechanics.


By Doc:
Be careful with the pivot angle thing. There are some odd ball action geometries that do NO sk8 as you would expect by looking @ them."

Again I agree. As you move the pivot angle more flat you quickly move the caster point away from the wheel. This makes a very unstable setup on the front wheel. It's like pushing a rope.

What I am wondering now is how far can I move the pivot angle and still remain stable. Since I am using 2 cushions, my damper should improve. So I think I can sacrifice a little more caster position.

Here is a ROUGH measurement of pivot angles for some plates I have lying around:

My existing double cone custom setup with Royal trucks: 45
Snyder SD: 53
Avanti: 50
Laser SA: 48
Atlas: 43 My daughter's - I have no idea how it skates. But she does well with them.
The Groove as shown above: 40
Edit: Snyder Advantage 40

Last edited by amohrfeld; March 31st, 2017 at 03:49 AM.
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Old March 28th, 2017, 03:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
The pivot angle thing is no different than experimenting with cushion hardness. On DA45 it is an easy thing to play with, as easy as changing cushions to try it out. And it is bolt on just like cushions, if you don't like what is going on after installation, it can be put back to factory stock, in other words no permanent changes. Any of the SG DA45 with factory jump bars installed are great to experiment with.
The other part of that is that the range is fairly narrow. A little too little and you can't get the skates to turn. Being in the middle in not hard to achieve. Too much shim and you can't control the skate.
Not a permanent change unless you build new plates and deviate from stock or your proven prototype mule's configuration/dimensions. That is the only time it is permanent.
The others(non-DA45) do not easily lend themselves to pivot angle changes.
Anyone interested in playing with their configuration that is in range( close to Houston area ) can put their skates on my analyzer to see what happens with changes made. At least for me it is no big deal. It takes a lot of the mystery away...
I have to design in 5 degree increments: for machining-tooling reasons. I can get about +3 degrees with shims. However, the best setup will have the truck perpendicular to the king pin. So I am trying to eliminate shims if possible.
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Old March 28th, 2017, 03:52 AM   #19
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Default Truck design

as long as you stay with a "stock" truck and not a one off truck design, you will stay within good design parameters. Design of the plate will depend on the trucks you use.
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Old March 28th, 2017, 04:01 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
I have to design in 5 degree increments: for machining-tooling reasons. I can get about +3 degrees with shims. However, the best setup will have the truck perpendicular to the king pin. So I am trying to eliminate shims if possible.
I converted old plates to test plates to finalize my design and dimensions. I used 2 sets of plates previous to building mine. I don't have to use shims either. As an experiment I bought some SSTs and fitted SG DA45 trucks to them. The cushion space was way out of bounds too much, but the kingpin angle was right and the pivot was in the correct position as well. So I stuck cones in there and shimmed up til I got the response I wanted. It was simple and worked well. I just did not have any extra long kingpins for them. I would recommend a test set to finalize the dimensions you are looking for. But you may be close enough with cad that test plates are not needed.



Hope you can see these. Invaders. One of the washers is the same thickness as the original jump bar that came on the skates but I added a little more on them. This was the first pair of skates I butchered... LOL
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