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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old February 22nd, 2017, 10:16 PM   #1
Luv2roll
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Default Skate plate dilemna

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the forum & have been reading post for a short while before I joined. I have only been roller skating ( indoor only) for a couple of years now in Chicago. I have a riedell boot, bone wheels & an old GM2 skate plate that was given to me by a friend. I was told what boot & wheels to buy because I didn't have a clue. I've been reading the forum when I get free moments trying to learn about this new & wonderful hobby but must admit I don't quite understand all the language. My plate is quite heavy & I would like to upgrade. I've been trying to ask the skaters here what type of plate do they have & what do they like about it. When I ask questions here at home, a lot of people don't seem to know what plate they have & the ones that do know says it's not the plate but the skater. I seem to have good edges with the GM2 & I would like to keep that. I've started learning JB skating which is kind of like dancing on skates. I still need my toe stops . In my research I've become quite confused. The plates go from cheap to expensive without explaining what they can do. I am medium height & medium weight. Can any one help me choose something to start with in the forum ? Thanks.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 11:16 PM   #2
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I've also found most people at my rink don't pay attention to what plates they have. I think it's pretty true that you can learn and even skate a lifetime on one pair and not really ever have a problem. But optimizing for your style is fun, and makes skating easier.

Myself, I learned on low top speed skates with 45 degree angle Sure-grip XK-4 plates. I have tried others, but these are what I keep coming back to, and have the same plate on 3 pair of skates. I like the way I can just think about leaning and I turn. I can keep my skates parallel, and weave them both back and forth and get push, like a slalom skier. I can do a lot of crossovers forward and back. And they just seem fast, and maneuverable to me. I love the curves of the plate, and the shine of high polished metal. I like the old school twisted jump bar. But that's me.

If you like the looks of the XK-4, I have a 10 degree version for sale on this forum. It's a size 7, for about a size 9-10 Riedell (but check the charts, it fits several sizes), with 7mm axles.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 11:19 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv2roll View Post
I seem to have good edges with the GM2 & I would like to keep that.
Hi and welcome.

The GMII is a really nice plate when it's set up right. I think you're on to something wanting to stay in that same performance family.

A good jumping-off point would be the Snyder Advantage. It has a very similar action to your Chicago, and lots of tuning options. Fitting it to your skating style should post no issue. And it's considerably lighter in weight. It's not the cheapest plate out there, and it's not the most expensive, but its very well made and will last a lifetime.

There are a dozen other options, but I won't confuse the issue yet. You wanted a place to start. It's true, that the skater has everything to do with it, but it will take you longer to find your limitations with good equipment.

You're likely just fine with your current boot and wheels for the type of skating you want to do. Advice from people you skate with regarding wheels is usually a good place to start as well.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 12:58 AM   #4
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So now you have two choices, both with 10 or 15 degree trucks that will be lighter. One for $139, one for $425.

Here are what the XK-4 Double Action 10 degree look like, these are mine for sale:

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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:11 AM   #5
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Default Thanks 4 reply

Thanks Azshot & dvw for your reply & I appreciate the information because it is a place to start. I have to research the king pin angles. just finding out they had different angles so now I need to find out why. I have a lot to learn! I will also look at the skates for sale, sounds like something I should look into. I really enjoy reading the forum because I have been introduced to so much in the skate world including skating information from other countries. I'm really excited to read the opinions from more experienced skaters. I'm hoping to hear more opinions as well if possible. I'm liking the idea of the Snyder Advantage & someone at the rink suggested the Labeda plates although they didn't say why. I was reading in the forum about the roll lines but they might be to advanced for me if it doesn't take much to move them.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv2roll View Post
Thanks Azshot & dvw for your reply & I appreciate the information because it is a place to start. I have to research the king pin angles. just finding out they had different angles so now I need to find out why. I have a lot to learn! I will also look at the skates for sale, sounds like something I should look into. I really enjoy reading the forum because I have been introduced to so much in the skate world including skating information from other countries. I'm really excited to read the opinions from more experienced skaters. I'm hoping to hear more opinions as well if possible. I'm liking the idea of the Snyder Advantage & someone at the rink suggested the Labeda plates although they didn't say why. I was reading in the forum about the roll lines but they might be to advanced for me if it doesn't take much to move them.
Spending big money sometimes is not the key to skates working well for you. That being said... for the type of skating you are learning look into what most of the people that do the same skating are using. Lighter plates help you last longer on the floor. Dont worry so much about bearings as much as wheels. Well fitting boots help you maintain good control with comfort.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:49 AM   #7
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You are doing the smart and fun thing: planning, learning, and exploring your next step. That's great! People often throw out a recommendation, with no real reason why other than that's what they like. Like your Labeda guy. Or me with my XK-4, though I explained why I like them. Keep looking, and realize like was said above, no piece of equipment will be "wrong." You can skate with any of them, just some are a little better for one thing or another. My 20 year old daughters swear by some cheap Chicago dance skates and some klunky plates. It's really the good wheels, but they don't realize that.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 03:27 AM   #8
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Default That's a plan!

So appreciate this forum. Looking forward to trying out u guys suggestions & getting back with hopefully( helpful)feedback for another beginner roller. I would also like to know how to get to the forum where they do sell skates & components, if that's possible. Can someone help with that?
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 04:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSHOT View Post
So now you have two choices, both with 10 or 15 degree trucks that will be lighter. One for $139, one for $425.
They're both cars, they both do the same thing, one's cheaper. Get that one.



There's no comparison. Absolutely no offense meant to you, AZSHOT, but the XK4 Doubler is a miserable plate and inferior to the GMII that the OP is on now. And not significantly lighter. Rubber bushed pivots, hex head bolt kingpin, meh. The Advantage has precision kingpin adjuster, adjustable pivots, and is in any measureable way, a superior plate. And if you're paying $425 for them, you're shopping in the wrong place. (ahem)

And even so, there are less expensive options that still offer a high level of performance. We just didn't get to those yet. Like the Sure Grip Avanti. The Magnesium version is light, has precision pivots, and will skate a lot like the Advantage, and isn't much more than the Doubler.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 04:38 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Luv2roll View Post
I have to research the king pin angles. just finding out they had different angles so now I need to find out why.
That topic has been thrashed to death on the forum. Have a go at the search tool and you'll turn up a lot. Main thing to remember is that kingpin angle doesn't tell the whole story. You have to look at the entire suspension geometry as a unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luv2roll View Post
I'm liking the idea of the Snyder Advantage & someone at the rink suggested the Labeda plates although they didn't say why. I was reading in the forum about the roll lines but they might be to advanced for me if it doesn't take much to move them.
If they mean the Pro Line, they aren't what they used to be other than expensive. Look at the Roller Derby Octane 7000. It's a Pro Line clone made by the same company, and half the price. Only caveat is they only come in 8mm axles, so that means new bearings for you.

Roll Line is an outstanding plate, and you don't have to spend a fortune on one if you don't want to. The cushions are really expensive, however, so if the ones that come on it don't get it for you, prepare to shell out another $40 or so for more. Look at the Crazy Venus. It's a Roll Line clone, the cushions aren't so expensive and it comes in 7 colors if that appeals to you. But 8mm only, and they only come in a handful of sizes, so that might be a challenge.

Dizzy yet?
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 07:49 AM   #11
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My 2 cents buy the the synder .
Better plate and resale value will always be better than the rest.
Or buy a Boen.....
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 01:25 PM   #12
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I guess the 1970s and 1980s speed skaters were using miserable equipment! But it sure got the job done for a lot of us. I'm sure micro adjustable bolts somehow make people feel that they can get macro perfection in their skating. Meanwhile, we all just tightened or loosened the trucks by how they felt on the floor (and still do). If a 13 year old speed team member could do it in 1978, I'm sure the plates have something going for them.

On equipment forums, people like complicated expensive, equipment. And dealers that sell it typically like it too.

I'm into several other hobbies, including antique cameras. It's amazing how many Leica snobs are out there, that think a Canon or Nikon or Nicca rangefinder is a piece of junk. Yes, a Leica costs 10 times what those other 1950s Rangefinders cost. Yet those others did so well they left Leica in the backwaters of bling, like a Rolls Royce car. Target rifles, ....same thing, I'm told you have to have a $2,000 Anschutz (I shoot a 1933 Winchester in matches against them, and do just fine, thank you).

My plate/car analogy would be a Ford Mustang for the XK-4, vs a Ferarri of some sort for the new, super colorful urethane cushion, click adjustable, unobtanium pivot pin new plates. They'll both get the job done, and some want to pay top dollar to feel they are getting it done better. I guess I need to try some fancy schmancy Snyders one day. But I seriously blow away all the 20-30 year old skaters at our speed events, them on all these new plates, with my miserable plates. And I'm 53 years old.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 02:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post
...the XK4 Doubler is a miserable plate and inferior to the GMII that the OP is on now. And not significantly lighter. Rubber bushed pivots, hex head bolt kingpin, meh. The Advantage has precision kingpin adjuster, adjustable pivots, and is in any measureable way, a superior plate....
there are less expensive options ...Like the Sure Grip Avanti...
I'm an engineer, so do like equipment specs. So let's compare in concrete terms the difference between the XK-4, Advantage, and Avanti plates.


The XK-4 has
- Rubber or polyurethane cushions
- Adjustable pivot pin (in 45 degree model)
- two nut (locknut) adjustable kingpin
- list $159


The Avanti magnesium has
- Polyurethane cushions
- Adjustable pivot pin (in magnesium model)
- one nut adjustable kingpin
- list $190



The Advantage has
- Rubber (looks like standard) or Polyurethane cushions (at a cost)
- Adjustable pivot pin (in magnesium model)
- one nut adjustable kingpin
- list $425 (all prices are from skates dot dom)

The first two seem identical other than manufacturing shortcuts in the newer plate. Perhaps it's lighter? What else is better? The Advantage seems to have, well, a pretty look? Gold bolts on the kingpin? How are they "precision" like you say? Are they click adjustable? Have vernier measurements on the nut? I just don't know that plate.

I can't find a good picture of the old Chicago GMII, but don't see anything on it that makes it better than the old XK-4. Can you explain why you say the XK-4 is inferior to it? I want tangible, measurable things, not opinions or words like "miserable."
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 04:58 PM   #14
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The first two seem identical other than manufacturing shortcuts in the newer plate. Perhaps it's lighter? What else is better?
For starters, you're comparing apples and grapefruit.

First, that's a DA-45 XK-4, which is a far cry from the Doubler. The Doubler is an XK-4 plate with Century suspension on it. It is not comparable in performace to the DA-45. (Note that ALL Sure Grip flat plate models start off with the same plate blank. The XK-4 is whittled down on a tracer mill.)

The XK-4 DA45 has a 30 kingpin, the Avanti is 10. The Avenger has the same 30 DA45 suspension as the XK-4.

The Avanti skates a lot like a Snyder Super Deluxe and it's kin (World Dominator, Advantage, Grand American). The DA-45 in any form (Avenger, XK-4, Invader, Magnum, Cyclone) skates more like a Snyder Imperial et.al.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSHOT View Post
The Advantage seems to have, well, a pretty look? Gold bolts on the kingpin? How are they "precision" like you say? Are they click adjustable? Have vernier measurements on the nut? I just don't know that plate.
The advantage comes stock with the World Dominator suspension. It's a simple and inexpensive matter to retrofit Sure Grip urethane cushions onto it if desired.

The adjuster is not a clicker, but the Snyder world class adjuster can be fitted. There are two adjusters - the stock is a brass nut, and there is also an aluminum one. They both have graduations on them to offer some measure of repeatability. The threads on all of these are 3/8"-24tpi.

The Advantage is CNC machined from a 7075 extrusion, which will be transitioning to billet at some point.

The Avenger and Avanti are pressure cast magnesium alloy.

The Snyder Imperial and Super Deluxe and the Sure Grip Century, Classic, XK-4, and Cyclone are all forged.

Sure Grip trucks are sand cast, Snyders are forged.

Sure Grip Magnum and Invader are sand cast. Magnum is magnesium alloy, Invader is 6061.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSHOT View Post
I can't find a good picture of the old Chicago GMII, but don't see anything on it that makes it better than the old XK-4. Can you explain why you say the XK-4 is inferior to it? I want tangible, measurable things, not opinions or words like "miserable."
Primarily it's the rubber pivot bushings. They're imprecise and the skate feels mushy. If you've only ever skated on rubber pivots, you likely won't notice. Once you spend any meaningful time on a plate with adjustable or even semi-precision pivots, the differences will be immediately clear. The rubber cushions don't help, but are easily solvable with stock Sure Grip parts.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 05:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSHOT View Post
I guess the 1970s and 1980s speed skaters were using miserable equipment! But it sure got the job done for a lot of us. I'm sure micro adjustable bolts somehow make people feel that they can get macro perfection in their skating. Meanwhile, we all just tightened or loosened the trucks by how they felt on the floor (and still do). If a 13 year old speed team member could do it in 1978, I'm sure the plates have something going for them.

On equipment forums, people like complicated expensive, equipment. And dealers that sell it typically like it too.

I'm into several other hobbies, including antique cameras. It's amazing how many Leica snobs are out there, that think a Canon or Nikon or Nicca rangefinder is a piece of junk. Yes, a Leica costs 10 times what those other 1950s Rangefinders cost. Yet those others did so well they left Leica in the backwaters of bling, like a Rolls Royce car. Target rifles, ....same thing, I'm told you have to have a $2,000 Anschutz (I shoot a 1933 Winchester in matches against them, and do just fine, thank you).

My plate/car analogy would be a Ford Mustang for the XK-4, vs a Ferarri of some sort for the new, super colorful urethane cushion, click adjustable, unobtanium pivot pin new plates. They'll both get the job done, and some want to pay top dollar to feel they are getting it done better. I guess I need to try some fancy schmancy Snyders one day. But I seriously blow away all the 20-30 year old skaters at our speed events, them on all these new plates, with my miserable plates. And I'm 53 years old.
There ya go talikng about my F1 plates lol (Farrari)..
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 07:46 PM   #16
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Default Wow!

I've learned more in 2 days than the 2 years I've been skating!
Fierocious1, your advice was simple & to the point. dvw your car comparison was great as well as your plate comparison. Azshot made some very interesting points as well & I do believe he blows away those that are younger than he at the rink. These were the best responses & yes, brain was somewhat on overload. With all said, it seems price isn't the most important factor to building a good skate.
It's going to be worth it to research all the info given here.Thanks!
Also, Jackbkwikm mention of resale value was good to know because it really is an investment. I guess if you buy expensive equipment & it doesn't work for you.....You really wouldn't want to be stuck with it.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 08:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSHOT View Post
I'm an engineer, so do like equipment specs. So let's compare in concrete terms the difference between the XK-4, Advantage, and Avanti plates.
There are two members of this forum that are gurus extraordinaire when it comes to skating equipment. Their knowledge of the equipment and how to effectively use it is indisputable. One is DocSk8 and the other is dvw.

As a disinterested third party, I did not read any disdain into what dvw is posting. He is just attempting to clear muddy water, giving solid advice and allowing the skater to make their own "informed" choice.

Most of us on this forum have impassioned preferences concerning equipment. I know I do! But I do enjoy the observations of those that know a lot more about skating equipment then I do.

Thank you dvw and DocSk8 for your willingness to share your hard learned and earned knowledge.

Just keep rollin
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 08:46 PM   #18
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Default My 2 cents...

After you figure out what plates you think you want, find someone that can help you size them and then mount them properly. I have found over the years that big bucks thrown @ sk8 parts that are not properly sized, assembled and tuned yields poor results.


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Old February 23rd, 2017, 10:28 PM   #19
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What he said.
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Old February 24th, 2017, 05:57 PM   #20
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What BOTH of them said!

My two cents is you really can't go wrong with an Avenger. It is available in aluminum and magnesium. Value priced, strong and can be tuned to just about any skating style. Some here will argue that it's action is "too much" but with harder cushions that can be easily tamed. If you must have a lower action plate for mental reasons the Avanti is available. I don't know if it is available in AL with precision pivots. You certainly want those as DVW pointed out.

Both of these plates are modern computer designed masterpieces that sprung from here. There have been a lot of plates come out in the last few years but none have had the market penetration as the Avenger.

If you want to spend considerably more and get more then there are other options and if I were you I'd contact the gurus directly.

.
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