How long to learn proper crossovers?

[ursle]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

I really appreciate all the drills/help. I have been focused on these scooter pushes because it has really revealed some weak spots with me. For instance, all this time I thought my left leg was weaker, but my right leg is far more unstable. This is due to more knee pain on the inside surface of my knee (I've had meniscal surgeries on both knees) on this side. When I have been practicing my arm swing with each push, on my right side, I was involuntarily keeping my right arm by my side because my mind "feared" my knee "giving out". So I have been doubling the amount of time on that side to strengthen the whole supporting structure on that side. I plan on spending the winter focusing on drills, even if I practice indoors balancing on one leg in my skates.

Ahh, this post sheds light on the situation, meniscal surgery on both knees.

The answer to your question, how long to learn....is, just drop your butt and get you’re legs out from under you, the lower your butt the better your ability to go fast while turning.

Might I suggest, lots of hours on a bicycle, seat adjusted properly, just pedal and slowly build up the upper and lower leg muscles which will strengthen the tendons and ligaments of the knees, they will become supple, allowing you the flexibility needed to drop your butt and go fast, skating is rather stressful on the knees, even when they aren’t injured, bicycling is an excellent way to strengthen the legs with out stressing anything.
Reinjuring your knees by overstressing them isn’t productive.

[Abadjiev]

Thanks for the advice. I already do a lot of biking. A history of Olympic Lifting and lots of squatting have given me moderately strong legs until a lower back injury sidelined that activity. Recently tested my squat and was able to do 245 for 8 reps which calculates out to a 305 single.

But... that really doesn't strengthen joints, tendons and ligaments, especially from lateral forces. I have been doing turncable type exercises, using bike inner tubes tied to an eye hook in a wall and doing skater-type side "pushes"/"extensions" (mimicking the stroke of a skate). I have found that the deeper I am in my squat and the closer my knee is to 90 degrees, there is much less pain in the knees.

[romekjagoda]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

I have been focused on these scooter pushes because it has really revealed some weak spots with me.

I am wondering what relevance/use does the 'scooter move/push' have for speed skating, really? I would suggest it could be even teaching the wrong technique, as the purpose is to push backwards rather than sideways (but maybe I am missing something).
I think of far greater benefit for the speed skating technique are the parallel stroke drills that Coach Sooty has on his YT channel. These drills teach you to push sideways also in circular drills = they form a basis for your crossovers.

Best and good luck.

[WJCIV]

Originally Posted by romekjagoda

I am wondering what relevance/use does the 'scooter move/push' have for speed skating, really? I would suggest it could be even teaching the wrong technique, as the purpose is to push backwards rather than sideways (but maybe I am missing something).

I suspect it's just a terminology thing. When I saw "scooter push" I immediately assumed it was what I prefer to call "right foot push" (or left foot push when going the opposite direction). We run these on smaller circles indoors than an outdoor track allows, which probably reveals weaknesses faster.

[chuckboucher]

Originally Posted by Dekindy

My teacher calls them cross-pulls. Have not worked on them yet.

I was under the impression that cross pulls begin when your right leg is extended all the way out to the side and your left foot is under your left shoulder (at no point should you extend your left foot past your shoulder). You then pull your left foot to initiate the cross.

[bjvircks]

on ice I came to know what is being called here the "scooter push" as something else. we call it "sculling". we work at keeping very low in the knees and hips and then push without ever lifting either skate from the ice. On straights it develops weight transfer and really makes the quads work hard. in the turns it help focus on driving the hip and keeping upper body/shoulders from charging the turn.

[romekjagoda]

Originally Posted by bjvircks

on ice I came to know what is being called here the "scooter push" as something else. we call it "sculling". we work at keeping very low in the knees and hips and then push without ever lifting either skate from the ice. On straights it develops weight transfer and really makes the quads work hard. in the turns it help focus on driving the hip and keeping upper body/shoulders from charging the turn.

If that's only a terminology thing and indeed, the scooter push is an equivalent of what you describe than in inline we were doing the same drills (parallel push, side push in circles) and they are by all means productive and helpful. But the 'scooter push' that was being referred to earlier here (YT by the Skatefresh instructor Asha) leaves me still sceptical (yet again, I am no expert and she's a 15+ yrs experience in skate coaching, so...).
Cheers.

[ursle]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

Thanks for the advice. I already do a lot of biking. A history of Olympic Lifting and lots of squatting have given me moderately strong legs until a lower back injury sidelined that activity. Recently tested my squat and was able to do 245 for 8 reps which calculates out to a 305 single.

But... that really doesn't strengthen joints, tendons and ligaments, especially from lateral forces. I have been doing turncable type exercises, using bike inner tubes tied to an eye hook in a wall and doing skater-type side "pushes"/"extensions" (mimicking the stroke of a skate). I have found that the deeper I am in my squat and the closer my knee is to 90 degrees, there is much less pain in the knees.

I apologize for any preconception, I assumed you were the opposite end of the scale, so you know exactly what I’m saying, and now it’s just a matter of hours getting comfortable in the position required to accelerate while turning, I was busy winters from 3-15 on ice playing hockey, at that age, closer to the ice, in pads, falling wasn’t a concern, turning sharply while accelerating was, as I humbly exit, let me add, all things in moderation.

And... drop the butt

[Abadjiev]

Originally Posted by ursle

I apologize for any preconception, I assumed you were the opposite end of the scale, so you know exactly what I’m saying, and now it’s just a matter of hours getting comfortable in the position required to accelerate while turning, I was busy winters from 3-15 on ice playing hockey, at that age, closer to the ice, in pads, falling wasn’t a concern, turning sharply while accelerating was, as I humbly exit, let me add, all things in moderation.

And... drop the butt

No problem. No offense taken. You have no idea who I am or my experience or background. I'll take any and all advice and hopefully I don't come across as snarky in response. My problem is I thought that skating would be simpler when i first took it up. Hoo boy, was I wrong... But now i know why golf is addictive. So much of both sports is about skills and not just muscling through...

[Derrick]

Originally Posted by Mort

Find a wall, lean on the wall, get horizontal.(Well 45 deg ) Learn what it feels like to lean on your skates.

Maybe even push a car on flat ground on skates? Where one could easily just walk sideways leaning against the car. Walking sideways if course, to simulate crossovers. A couple people on shoes could be a braced object as well. Your goal here is to simulate the load of inertia which allows us to lean in the turns.


Off(or on) skates
Walk up stairs sideways, with your chest facing up the staircase. Small crossover steps can be done on shorter stairs, and longer steidibg crossovers by either skipping stairs or finding a staircase with larger steps.

To do/practice crossovers the "opposite" direction, simply step with the right aide of your body leading up the staircase. For traditional crossovers, it's your left side that leads.

The heel should hit first, just a split second here, as the stride begins. Your stride will start with more weight on the outside edge during the beginning, and as it comes under your body the weight displacement shifts to the center of the skate, and to the inside edge as you push your leg away, ending with a hard pulse off the ball of the foot. The key here is to make this as smooth as possible. Form is always the most important.

If you watch Olympic level ice speed skaters youll see they have a very smooth flow. Timing your power output is key.

Like pushing a kid on a swing, as they start to come back to you, you prepare to assist gravity when they start their away trip. Your push strength and speed should build during the time you assist their swing with peak power being at the end of your assist.

Skating is alot like that. That heavy surge of power at the end of a firmly building stride.

Mowing up hill gives this kind of motion (I turn sideways to the hill to get enough traction). I got a hill you could try.

[allanjeong]

Originally Posted by evilzzz

My crossovers improved significantly when I did a season of indoors. I'm left footed/left sided by nature so it has always been difficult for me to keep up with others just turning left all the time, but necessity is the mother of improvement. Sounds boring, but do regular drills and practice and you will improve.. not just crossovers, but overall technique in general.

Actually, you being left footed is an advantage because the stronger push should come from your inside leg from what I’ve been told by coaches. It’s a matter of learning how to achieve balance over your inside edges when weighted on your left skate.

[evilzzz]

Originally Posted by allanjeong

Actually, you being left footed is an advantage because the stronger push should come from your inside leg from what I’ve been told by coaches. It’s a matter of learning how to achieve balance over your inside edges when weighted on your left skate.

It's not an advantage, and if you ever get a bunch of skaters to skate clockwise around a track for any length of time that will become very obvious just by watching them.

Yes with practice you adjust and get better, but you will always be using your inherently weaker side to do most of the crossing and foot placement work.