Why *are* speed boots low cut?

[Michael]

Hallo,

As the bottom goes backward when you bend your knees
they don´t go forward to much. (sitting in the air chair)
Therefore I feel that a semi-speed (semi-high) boot does not
limit my forward knee bent.
But high fitness boots are very rigid of course.
Someone told me that semi high soft boots (RB 100, Radikal 100) allow more ankle flex than stiff semi high boots (PS C8, Bont Semi-Race) ???

Regards,
Michael

[susanmcp]

The Bont Semi-race offers LITTLE forward movement.

[unicycle1234]

your problem may be due to the fit. For boots with ankle support, you don't need a good fit as the ankle support compensates for it. When you don't have the ankle support, and the boot doesn't fit well, you'll have a problem.

[eighteen_psi]

As a side note, I got dramatically faster and stronger over the ~4 month period where my old speedness skates couldn't get tight on the ankle thanks to a stripped buckle ladder. (RB Lightning05 on 4x84mm)

I got used to not having support there and it made the transition to my Vaypors a lot easier (though still challenging for a few weeks).

*note there is no comparison in the foot (boot) support of a good speed skate and a loose cuff fitness skate whatsoever, it just helped me stop relying on that ankle support as a crutch.

I couldn't go too fast on them that way, but I have actually done a mile or more at a social pace with my vaypors unlaced/unbuckled and it was very comfortable and never felt sloppy - the boot fits that well - a rec skate never will.

[Jim White]

Originally Posted by susanmcp

The Bont Semi-race offers LITTLE forward movement.

Some would say that's not really a speed skate.

[Jim White]

Random: The best speed boots are too high for some. Chad Hedrick was known for sometimes wearing his not fully laced, and at least two who post here have found good results by copying this.

[online inline]

Jim, as a follow-up on my efforts to not lace my speed boots all the way up (leave two top eyelets undone), it worked very nicely for the first several skate sessions, but eventually, i found that the back of my heel, down fairly low, were getting really eaten up by my boots. Apparently, not having the boot snug around the cuff created a new pressure point lower in the cup of my heel, and i had to lace the boots back up to even out the points at which my boot gripped my feet. I may give it another try, but the more often i am skating, i suspect that it will chew up my heels again.

[chacata]

OI, i had that happen to me with my luiginos and the problem was that i had too much room between my upper heel area (just where the tendon starts) and the boot. It was solved part by heat molding this part of the boot and part by adding a custom made by me insole. I also encountered that lacing them to the top solved the problem but created another problem cause i have low ankles so lacing to the top caused a forward motion lock and it was affecting my crossovers and overall technique. Hope it helps.

[online inline]

thanks, chacata. I'll have to take a closer look at that area next time i lace up. For now, just skating less (a couple of times per week) is working at keeping everything in working order, and allowing areas to recover before stressing them again.

[Jim White]

Interesting, I've also had to deal with similar issues. Seems like changing how high a boot is laced (whether by boot design, or by leaving the boot partly unlaced) does change the points of greatest pressure. Also, the lower the cut/lacing, the less space there is to distribute pressure, so the greater the pressure on the remaining contact space between the boot and foot.

Intense skaters do tend to have chronic foot problems; foot bumps are beauty marks, as are knee scars.

I never asked Chad how he dealt with all this. I do know he has had for years a personal boot maker, very skilled, who has made many highly specialized boots, whose features included fitting his toes like a glove, not a mitten. Here's the story, less the glove part:
http://news-press.com/article/200901...S0101/90129034
I do know he currently, for ice, normally does lace his boots fully, but maybe they are now built so the top laces are low. (He's about to become a father, so that's what he likes to talk about now, lol)

Other skaters have a variety of ways of dealing with such issues, vith varying degrees of success, and with many long forum discussions. Some yearn for the simpler days of high boots.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Jim White

Some would say that's not really a speed skate.

I would agree, having owned both Semi-Race and Jets. Not much difference other than the amount of padding and the height of the cuff, as far as I could ever tell. Yet that cuff height really was cramptacular in the way it limited forward flex.

[online inline]

Originally Posted by Jim White

Interesting, I've also had to deal with similar issues. Seems like changing how high a boot is laced (whether by boot design, or by leaving the boot partly unlaced) does change the points of greatest pressure. Also, the lower the cut/lacing, the less space there is to distribute pressure, so the greater the pressure on the remaining contact space between the boot and foot....

That's exactly it.
So today, i went back to leaving the top eyelet unlaced, which is not quite as drastic as keeping the top TWO eyelets unlaced, which i used to do but had the pressure point problems some 8 months ago. And leaving the top eyelet unlaced worked really well. Feels great, actually, and while late into the 22 miler i did start to feel a little rubbing on the outside of my ankle/heel area on one foot, i was able to stop, lace em up tighter, and do away with it.
Hope this continues as a workable lacing strategy becuase i really like the added ankle freedom. But it is, frankly, just a matter of volume, i am fairly certain. And when I start really ramping up the mileage, as i am wont to do later in the season, i am fairly certain that the lower ankle/heel rub will be the first problem to surface. I think that some place has to take the pressure, and if the amount of area is reduced due to lacing up less, than the abrasive effects will be worse.
Another thing to consider: Chad is a big boy, and his feet are bigger, and as such, he has more surface with which to transfer all that energy into the frame/wheels. The smaller the foot, the smaller area that must do the work, and more friction and pressure.
But it really did feel great, lacing up lower.

[chaosdsm]

Originally Posted by susanmcp

The Bont Semi-race offers LITTLE forward movement.

It takes some breaking in (about 75 miles for mine), but once broke in forward movement is pretty darned good & not too sloppy like it can be with soft shelled recreational / marathon skates.

[Spencer.Berry]

For the past 2 or 3 years, I haven't been using the top eyelet in my custom vaypors. I've tried using the top eyelet, but if I get even a little bit low, the top lace gives me terrible lace bite. For my feet, there is no problem with skipping the top eyelet. Everyone is different, though.

Spencer

[mikeyb]

It remains a mystery how the shape of the ankle portion of different speed boots works on different people.

On my prior boot, a McDaniels custom, I at first left the top lace undone. Later, I switched to using two laces, one for all the lower eyelets and another for the top two. The top two I set just a touch loose so they'd tighten up as I leaned into my stroke.

My present boot, a Bont Apache custom, is the exact opposite. I use only one lace. I don't tighten the lower eyelets much and I firm up the top two eyelets. The ankle portion of this boot somehow fits my ankle just right and further tightening or loosening of the top two eyelets while I skate doesn't seem to make any difference. (I sometimes tweek the power strap which tightens the lower boot.) So far, 6 months into owning these, I get no skate bite. It's unclear whether a good ankle fit has to do with luck or the skill of the boot maker. I'm beginning to think luck is a big part of it.

Mike B

[MachV]

The answer to the question is this: You only need the support and control from the ANKLE DOWN. Above the ankle is the shin bone. It is all one piece up to the knee.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by mikeyb

My present boot, a Bont Apache custom, is the exact opposite. I use only one lace. I don't tighten the lower eyelets much and I firm up the top two eyelets. The ankle portion of this boot somehow fits my ankle just right and further tightening or loosening of the top two eyelets while I skate doesn't seem to make any difference. (I sometimes tweek the power strap which tightens the lower boot.)

Hello.

It seems, in the german speed skating forum the bont vaypor is the most
wanted or ordered boot to date. Whereas the bont apache was reported to be too high at the ankle for some skaters.

Michael

[mikeyb]

Well, this is a custom boot. Glen Kochi, the Bont North American sales rep explained that the models (custom) don't have a different height but are instead cut to be 2.5 cm above the peak of the inside ankle bone. I was also told I could have it any height I wanted but Glenn persuaded me to go with the flow.

The end result is that the ankle cuff is the lowest I've yet owned. But the carbon goes all the way to the top of the cuff so the carbon may be higher than you expect.

At least on my ankle, this cuff in no way impedes ankle motion forward to back or side to side. Yet, it's very supportive during the skating motion.

Actually, when I got them, I thought it was too low. They skated great, but it troubled me that I could see my inside ankle bone partly protruding above the cuff a touch. I have a really large inside ankle bone (golf ball size). But I carefully measured and the cuff was exactly 2.5 cm above the ankle bone peak.

I hardly ever race. My understanding of the major difference between the Vaypor and the Apache is the Vaypor has a pure carbon last giving it a slightly more rigid base, and making it slightly more efficient for racing, especially sprints. Of course, 'slightly' is important if you race seriously.

Mike B

[eighteen_psi]

A Glenn boot is a good boot.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by mikeyb

Well, this is a custom boot. Glen Kochi, the Bont North American sales rep explained that the models (custom) don't have a different height but are instead cut to be 2.5 cm above the peak of the inside ankle bone. I was also told I could have it any height I wanted but Glenn persuaded me to go with the flow.

The end result is that the ankle cuff is the lowest I've yet owned. But the carbon goes all the way to the top of the cuff so the carbon may be higher than you expect.

At least on my ankle, this cuff in no way impedes ankle motion forward to back or side to side. Yet, it's very supportive during the skating motion.

Actually, when I got them, I thought it was too low. They skated great, but it troubled me that I could see my inside ankle bone partly protruding above the cuff a touch. I have a really large inside ankle bone (golf ball size). But I carefully measured and the cuff was exactly 2.5 cm above the ankle bone peak.

I hardly ever race. My understanding of the major difference between the Vaypor and the Apache is the Vaypor has a pure carbon last giving it a slightly more rigid base, and making it slightly more efficient for racing, especially sprints. Of course, 'slightly' is important if you race seriously.

Mike B

THANKS FOR THE INPUT:

Maybe I should try a low cut boot like the Bont Jet.
How much is the difference in ankle support and padding between
the non custom Bont Semi-Race and Bont Jet.

Is it right, that the Bont Jet gives more support to new skaters compared to the Fila F100, the RB Racemachine or a Powerslide R4 (as all these boots are available in the next shop)? (As the Jet is super moldable, it should be adaptable to my foot.)

Michael