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Old May 9th, 2016, 01:23 PM   #1
Derrick
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Default Full Mapes

So.... I'm thinking about getting one rotation. But I also work on toes in the same session. So I went with some iris plugs. I do the half mapes, I know, not much more thatn a bunny hop really. More often than not I miss the toe stop entirely. Is it necessary (or so recommended that one would say it was necessary) to hit the stop to get one rotation?

The slight turn of the foot seems to have enough friction to jump off of, but as you know, I'm often delusional.
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Old May 9th, 2016, 07:11 PM   #2
larryoracing
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Smile Nope, Recommended but not necessary to use the toe stop..

Quote:
Is it necessary (or so recommended that one would say it was necessary) to hit the stop to get one rotation?

Nope. If you didn't use the toe stop it would be called a loop jump/single rotation jump, jumping off the LOB edge/no toe assist from the left leg.

Most people can cheat this jump and just kind of pivot over the toe stop/ slightly touching the toe-stop to the floor to get the full 1 turn revolution.

You could slightly touch the LIF wheel to the floor and call it a mapes. I don't think most judges would care or even notice. Things happen to fast for people to really notice what you are doing.

If you took a lesson on this jump one would call the toe stop a "toe assist".

I like the following video for teaching somebody how to jump and get rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7cksvHEXw

Sincerely,

Larry O

P.S. The Mapes jump has lot of variations. But remember it is a "toe assisted" jump. If you don't use the "toe" it's not a mapes, but still considered a jump.


Many people try to do a mapes and land it in and many different ways. It's just not a completed mapes and will be graded down accordingly in a competition.
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Old May 10th, 2016, 04:52 AM   #3
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Nope. If you didn't use the toe stop it would be called a loop jump/single rotation jump, jumping off the LOB edge/no toe assist from the left leg.

Most people can cheat this jump and just kind of pivot over the toe stop/ slightly touching the toe-stop to the floor to get the full 1 turn revolution.

You could slightly touch the LIF wheel to the floor and call it a mapes. I don't think most judges would care or even notice. Things happen to fast for people to really notice what you are doing.

If you took a lesson on this jump one would call the toe stop a "toe assist".

I like the following video for teaching somebody how to jump and get rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7cksvHEXw

Sincerely,

Larry O

P.S. The Mapes jump has lot of variations. But remember it is a "toe assisted" jump. If you don't use the "toe" it's not a mapes, but still considered a jump.


Many people try to do a mapes and land it in and many different ways. It's just not a completed mapes and will be graded down accordingly in a competition.

Yes, sometimes I skip the right skate entirely. I go cw on this jump. Perhaps a loop would be better, I was having a bit of trouble understanding the difference between a loop and mapes, but you explained it. I think I just need to get the guts to do it, it's easy off skate. I should do a scratch two footed one rotation first I suppose. The mapes is a bit easier on the carpet though.

BTW: I finally have the waltz jump and an IB spin. My entry to the IB needs some work, but I can do both cw and ccw snd get some rotation. I can't say they are totally pretty but its getting there. My two footed spins are pretty nice now though. I can get enough spin that I can't see the room for a few seconds. I love to spin.
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Old May 10th, 2016, 11:09 AM   #4
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to be a mapes or toe walley u have to use the toe stop or else it would be a loop. same goes with the lutz and flip, have to use the toe stop.
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Old May 10th, 2016, 08:51 PM   #5
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to be a mapes or toe walley u have to use the toe stop or else it would be a loop. same goes with the lutz and flip, have to use the toe stop.
OK, I'll start with a base two footed one rotation. if I live through that I'll make a descision on which jump to try.
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Old May 14th, 2016, 09:36 AM   #6
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Smile Scott Cohen gives freestyle lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n8AtCdJVFM

I was watching this video the other day and I wondered if anybody really knew what he was talking about? If they did then they should go out and practice what he preaches!

So, I dream'd up this 5 jump combination the other night to learn how to jump. I didn't want to fall. How do you practice jumping without falling?
Derrick I'm scared of falling too! I don't want to hurt myself...LOL, but I do want to jump, just like you. So, how do you learn how to jump without falling?

I was proud of myself and amazed. It was fun and anybody young or old can do this 5 jump combination. I was actually laughing as I was performing this 5 jump combination skating down the skating floor, quite fast during an "All Skate" session.

If I was teacher I would make a young 3 year old practice this combination until she was blue in the face and then I would let her try something a little more difficult like a single mapes jump or a single flip jump or even a single loop jump.


Here's the 5 jump combination:

1) Waltz jump, land on ROB.
2) Jump into the air off the ROB , but don't turn/no revolution and land on ROB.
3) Bring the left foot back as if you were going to do mapes jump and stab the left foot and jump into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions. Land on ROB.
4) Jump off the ROB into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions, land of the LIB.
5) Bring the right foot back as if you were going to do a flip jump, stab the right toe stop to the floor and jump into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions. Land on the LOB. That's the 5 jump beginning practice jump combination.

You have just did the basic 5 jump combination which Scott says will lead you to the next harder 5 jump combination jump.

1) Walt jump.
2) Loop jump
3) Mapes Jump
4) Euler Jump
5) Flip jump

That is the next harder 5 jump combination.

Finally this is where we want to go. This is where we all have been, but probably most of us will not get this combination back. Even Leroy Hicks/Senior Mens Singles champion when he came back at 50 years old could not perform this simple 5 jump combination.

1) Axel ( 1 more revolution than waltz jump)

2) Loop jump ( single rotation)

3) Double mapes

4) Euler ( single rotation)

5) Double flip.


When Leroy won out of Sr Mens in 1975 his standard, run of the mill combination was:

1) Double axel (2.5 revolutions)
2) Single Loop jump
3) Double Loop jump
4) Single Loop jump
5) Double Loop jump
6) Single Euler Jump
7) Double flip.


Leroy could not perform this 7 jump double combination at 50 years old, but he could perform the single 5 jump combination.

I think we are all cable of performing a simple single 5 jump combination.

But you practice the 5 jump/no turn/no revolutions jump 1st, until you get all your take off edges and landing edges down pat and really strong. Then you go for the 5 jump combination using all single turn jumps. That how you learn to jump. Practice the easy ones first then progress to the next harder ones, until you can do what you want, being doubles or even triples.

Sincerely,

Larry O and happy jumping.
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Old May 14th, 2016, 04:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n8AtCdJVFM

I was watching this video the other day and I wondered if anybody really knew what he was talking about? If they did then they should go out and practice what he preaches!
Great video. And no actual skating on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryoracing
Here's the 5 jump combination:

1) Waltz jump, land on ROB.
2) Jump into the air off the ROB , but don't turn/no revolution and land on ROB.
3) Bring the left foot back as if you were going to do mapes jump and stab the left foot and jump into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions. Land on ROB.
4) Jump off the ROB into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions, land of the LIB.
5) Bring the right foot back as if you were going to do a flip jump, stab the right toe stop to the floor and jump into the air, but don't turn/no revolutions. Land on the LOB. That's the 5 jump beginning practice jump combination.
Interesting... I'll have to give that a try.

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Originally Posted by larryoracing

Derrick I'm scared of falling too! I don't want to hurt myself...LOL, but I do want to jump, just like you. So, how do you learn how to jump without falling?
Of course, you don't. I fall all the time. Not afraid to fall off a waltz anymore. But I've never done a full rotation on skates before so that is more concerning to me. But i do want to do it, so I'll just have to get over it and go ahead and fall even more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryoracing
Finally this is where we want to go. This is where we all have been, but probably most of us will not get this combination back. Even Leroy Hicks/Senior Mens Singles champion when he came back at 50 years old could not perform this simple 5 j
1) Axel ( 1 more revolution than waltz jump)

2) Loop jump ( single rotation)

3) Double mapes

4) Euler ( single rotation)

5) Double flip.
I've never done any of these. And frankly, they are way beyond my ability. Not on my radar. But you go Larry.
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Old May 14th, 2016, 04:37 PM   #8
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So.... I'm thinking about getting one rotation. But I also work on toes in the same session. So I went with some iris plugs. I do the half mapes, I know, not much more thatn a bunny hop really. More often than not I miss the toe stop entirely. Is it necessary (or so recommended that one would say it was necessary) to hit the stop to get one rotation?

The slight turn of the foot seems to have enough friction to jump off of, but as you know, I'm often delusional.
OK....so I skate very different sessions on Sunday as Thursday, So it will be Toe-Stop-Thursdays and Dance-Plug-Sundays.

Tomorrow I'm going to Lima where they do some art so I'll go with toe stops in.
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Old May 28th, 2016, 09:11 AM   #9
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Smile I have been doing a lot of thinking on jumping lately and:

I have concluded the basis of good freestyle skating is good figure and dance skating.

I have been lucky enough to be able to go to a skating session which is basically an "artistic" practice session. Fountain Valley, Ca Koffee Klutch. 10:00 AM - Noon on Tuesdays and Fridays.

Today I spent 1 hour on just basic dance moves. Skating/Stroking forward down the main straight-away and Backward skating/stroking backwards down the straight-away. Basic three-turns in the regular direction and three turns in the reverse direction. Continuous mohawk turns around the corners and cross-n-fronts and cross-n-backs. I even started mixing in the three-turns with the mohawk turns and run steps skating in circle patterns. You can do that on slow sessions and sessions that are geared for older people (over 30) and also based on a "artistic" format.


After one hour my boots were broken in, my body is poised and standing straight up, my leg muscles and back are strong. I'm ready to do some freestyle...LOL!

But instantly I went to practicing upright spins. I feel all the practice on three turns, and stroking and strengthening the back muscles made doing the spins a whole lot better and easier. It's because you are in basic good standing skating position to make the turns and spin on balance instead of being hunched over our leaning one way or another.


Finally I got to jump and although a little tired I just feel when you get all you basic moves, dance and figures down pat and spins along the way the jumps will come a lot more natural, easier and just better and stronger because you are attempting them in a good strong upright position over your skates.


This is a great video of Donald Jackon in 1962. I personally feel the basis if his great freestyle skating was his basic moves and positions which to me are basic strong dance and figure moves. Don't you agree? He has strong edges and stands up tall.


Donald Jackson great video: No sound, sorry!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alrsemq_mzQ

Sincerely,

Larry O

P.S. I have some Donald Jackson boots, rated for quadruples and they are the stiffest books you will ever buy. Good point they make you stand up straight. Bad point they take a long time to break in every time you go skating. For me it takes about 1 hr to get them soft enough where you can actually feel your feet skating edges...lol!
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Old May 28th, 2016, 01:55 PM   #10
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Larry,
No doubt dance and figures will help freestyle in all aspects. Conversely freestyle will help dance and figures.

I loved the video of Mr. Jackson. Great routine and execution of that routine.

On a side note: I am still waiting for Derrick to post his mapes and other jumps.

Thanks Larry for your post.
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Old May 28th, 2016, 10:42 PM   #11
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Larry,
No doubt dance and figures will help freestyle in all aspects. Conversely freestyle will help dance and figures.

I loved the video of Mr. Jackson. Great routine and execution of that routine.

On a side note: I am still waiting for Derrick to post his mapes and other jumps.

Thanks Larry for your post.
I a bit emarrased to say, I haven't tried a full mapes on skate yet. I really don't like toe stops, any harm in trying a toe loop instead? Perhaps that's over my head. All I got is my waltz. It is improved since my last video.

I'm avoiding getting a commitment on when I can get video. I have 3.5 rink hours tomorrow but no one to taje video. Wait a minute.....my fam is picking me up, perhaps I can get one of them to video just before I go.

ok I got a confirmation fro Zeke to video. In the rink is better than the tennis court anyway.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 02:41 AM   #12
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Cool Dear Derrick, Donít be embarrassed.

Ancient 1 has asked for one of my videos last year, but I got sick and stopped skating.

At Fountain Valley, Ca they have a very interesting combinations of skaters who attend the Koffee Klutch skating session for people over 30.

One person “Tommi” is a very proficient dance skater, but I have always noticed her playing around with freestyle. I have a feeling Tommi is an ex - champion at the regional or national level.

It’s just a hunch by the way she plays around with singles. The other day she came in a little late into the session and wasn’t really practicing her dance.

She went right into practicing singles and started doing some spins.
Performing an OB Camel is not easy and she popped right into that position.

That’s pretty good for someone not really doing singles. She also started throwing some jumps that I had not seen her jump before. All completed singles very easily.


It’s really emabarrasing to me since I have not had the courage to throw a single yet. I’m still with you Derrick throwing my waltz jump…lol, but I too want to throw a few single jumps in due time…i.e.…my time when I think I’m ready.

One thing I have been doing a lot, is jumping on skates, at speed stabbing the mapes jump and flip jump without rotation. Just bringing the left or right foot back stabbing the floor and jumping as high as I can into the air, which isn’t very high…lol! No rotation and landing on the right foot backwards/skating backwards.


One time I wasn’t watching what I was doing and I started to rotate and I rotated one revolution and it scared me and I fell. I just want to make sure I have the take off and landing right before I throw in the rotation.

To me practicing the basics, so I don’t hurt myself , gain strength in my leg muscles first and gain balance skating backward and on one foot during landings. I feel this is very important before you staring rotating jumps into the air.


(1) I think this is what Scott Cohen is alluding to in his videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n8AtCdJVFM


Then I had this second revelation. I love revelations. Thank the Lord Jesus Christ…lol!


In the following video Joe Enthor shows you how to jump 360 on skates;

(2) How to do a 360 in the air.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQJmq_wilQ

The revelation comes in imagining doing this roller skating backwards and not forwards. And the beauty is you can practice this jump off skates, but imagine yourself skating backwards when you perform this 360 jump off skates.


Here’s the revelation. I have skated/jumped before so I know the feeling I’m looking for when I jump off skates. New comers don’t, but the beauty is you can try and you don’t have to fall while on skates and you practice off skates.


3) When performing the 360 off skates, bring the left foot back and touch it to the ground and jump more off the right skate /foot and then try to turn 360 in the air and land on the right skate /foot. That is a single. You are practicing a single mapes.


4) Now stand on the left foot and bring the right foot back and touch it to the ground/floor and jump more off the left skate/foot. Try to jump and turn 360 degrees in the air/one revolution and land on the right skate/foot.
You have just done a single “flip” jump.


5) The next jump I think is harder and I don’t think I ever completed a single salchow or double salchow. I was having trouble with that jump and my pro said “leave it alone … lets work on some other jumps, we don’t need it” ..lol!

Stand on the left foot, off skates, bring the right foot back and around, but don’t touch it to the ground and swing it in a way that when you jump off the left skate it helps in your 360 rotation and land on the right foot. You have just done a single salchow.


6) Now the revelation for me was using Joe Enthor’s basic idea of jumping off skates and applying it to the “loop’ jump. For some reason the loop jump is one of the harder jumps to perform and is rated higher in difficulty than all the other single rotation jumps. Much higher difficulty than the salchow, but I think it is a harder jump to learn but the easiest to perform, once learned.


Jim Brays famous double loop combination jump:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7CFasLYaRM


Larry’ Revelation:

Stand on the right foot, but imagine yourself skating backwards. Bring the left foot forward and barely brush it to the floor. You just want to balance yourself over that ROB edge/Right foot/skate. Now cock the body counter-clockwise ( this is what gives you the momentum to perform this jump), bend the right knee skate/foot and jump into the air one revolution, land on the right skate/foot with the left leg forward and now you have learned a single rotation loop jump.

I think the hard part about a loop jump is finding that magical balance point before lift off/jumping off the right skate/foot. By putting your body and legs in the right position this jump becomes very easily to learn off skates, which I think will help you went you put your skates on.

I have never had the opportunity to understand what Joe Enthors's videos , that could help me when trying to relearn the loop jump at 61 years old. I wanted to share the experience/knowledge with anybody who wanted to learn to jump off skates, then try it with skates on. I thinks Joe Enthors ideas can vastly help anyone learn any one of the single rotation jumps. I think anybody can learn the single rotation jumps. The axel and bockel are a little harder especially when you get older, like 61 years old...LOL!. But I actually think I can relearn the axel and bockel. When I was trying a year back, I noticed my right angle swelling. 170 lbs landing on the right foot had swollen the right angle off skates. I did about 15 axels off skates and my right angle could not take the punishment. But in do time I want to try again.


Sincerely,

Larry Otani and happy freestyle/singles jumping.


Skating is not what you can learn for yourself, but what fun you can teach to others to make their skating experience more enjoyable.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 04:22 AM   #13
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Yea, I think I'm pretty ready technically, just chicken. I like to three turn starting LiF and go right into a backwards LOB arabesque on my left foot and start in that position to do my half-mapes. I can stab ang go very straight up from there. But I don't have my toe stops on so technically it's not a stab. I just touch my wheels.

I'll do a toe stop session tomorrow. Zeke will get a little video but he's just showing up to pick me up.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 10:37 AM   #14
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Larry,
The accidental rotation is interesting and telling. Rotation is very easy for a single jump. Heck! at over 300 lbs I was able to do a single mapes after 30 years of being off of skates.

I am also a firm believer and I practice (even now) doing jumps in my head. I can feel each muscle and movement and body position. That's probably why I could still do a single mapes. It didn't look very pretty and my free hit the floor but all in all I was happy considering my excessive weight. Heck, it was like trying to jump with a 130 lb woman on my back. I consider mental conditioning and muscle memory the reason I could at least do a mapes.

I'm glad you are doing the practice at speed. It is much safer and easier. It's difficult to not be afraid at first. Thoughts come into the head just before you jump and then that's it... You have to be tough about it. If a worry thought comes in to your head then don't do the jump that time. TELL YOURSELF YOU ARE GOING TO DO IT! Then start building your speed and CLEAR YOUR MIND. Think of nothing but the jump itself, GAIN YOUR SPEED and now as you attain your jumping speed, CLEAR YOUR MIND OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING THE JUMP. JUST JUMP! Nothing in your mind, you decided and you do it...

WHAT A RUSH! No fear, mind clear, 3rd gear and you are on cloud 9. Even if you fall, you get a rush because your mind was clear and you did it without thinking. When you land it, OH FREAKING BABY! You will get a huge rush. You will do it over and over. Just remember that if you start to scare yourself, then self hypnotize and do the jump over in your mind and then DECIDE T JUMP NO MATTER WHAT. THEN CLEAR YOUR MIND OF EVERYTHING and just jump.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 10:46 AM   #15
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Derrick,
Pay attention to what I told Larry. AND LEARN TO USE TOE STOPS OR FORGET FREESTYLE, at least forget jumping. Your safety net is your toe stops in freestyle and it is needed to do many of jumps and footwork. Get the big toe stops, not the dance stops or the figure toe plugs, GET THE FREAKING FREESTYLE toe stops and then you can learn freestyle. Otherwise stick to dance, figures and just rexing. If I were your instructor for freestyle, I would refuse to teach you till you had proper equipment. TOE STOPS FOR FREESTYLE is not a suggestion, it is NECESSARY!



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Yea, I think I'm pretty ready technically, just chicken. I like to three turn starting LiF and go right into a backwards LOB arabesque on my left foot and start in that position to do my half-mapes. I can stab ang go very straight up from there. But I don't have my toe stops on so technically it's not a stab. I just touch my wheels.

I'll do a toe stop session tomorrow. Zeke will get a little video but he's just showing up to pick me up.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 10:51 AM   #16
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Larry,
What the heck are you doing? You said Tommi is doing the jumps (single jumps) very well. GO UP TO HER AND GET HER HELP. Hound her, promise her anything but get her to help you. GET A PAIR MAN! Sheesh! There is no pride here, you need something and she can provide, then do what you need to do to get it done.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 01:14 PM   #17
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Derrick,
Pay attention to what I told Larry. AND LEARN TO USE TOE STOPS OR FORGET FREESTYLE, at least forget jumping. Your safety net is your toe stops in freestyle and it is needed to do many of jumps and footwork. Get the big toe stops, not the dance stops or the figure toe plugs, GET THE FREAKING FREESTYLE toe stops and then you can learn freestyle. Otherwise stick to dance, figures and just rexing. If I were your instructor for freestyle, I would refuse to teach you till you had proper equipment. TOE STOPS FOR FREESTYLE is not a suggestion, it is NECESSARY!
very good point, i totally agree,,,,u could hurt yourself without the right equipment
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Old May 29th, 2016, 04:36 PM   #18
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Derrick,
Pay attention to what I told Larry. AND LEARN TO USE TOE STOPS OR FORGET FREESTYLE, at least forget jumping. Your safety net is your toe stops in freestyle and it is needed to do many of jumps and footwork. Get the big toe stops, not the dance stops or the figure toe plugs, GET THE FREAKING FREESTYLE toe stops and then you can learn freestyle. Otherwise stick to dance, figures and just rexing. If I were your instructor for freestyle, I would refuse to teach you till you had proper equipment. TOE STOPS FOR FREESTYLE is not a suggestion, it is NECESSARY!

I had just put them in for todays session before reading this.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 04:46 PM   #19
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I'm not sure my half-mapes is much practice for the full. I go straight up then kinda force myself around. I may not be as much doing a rotational jump as just jerking around.


Anyway, when I practice the full off skate I start the rotation much earlier even before my stabbing foot hits the floor.

I'm pretty sure just jumping up and landing on the proper edge is much practice for me either. It's much different landing when there is a bit of rotation left unchecked. Of course it feels much more awesome to land with rotation.

I do think that starting backwards is easier than forward. I'm just straighter that way. I have such a bad bending habit going forward. I like to reach for stuff and the I bend where I should not. Spinning and jumping th same.

Well we'll see what todays session produces.
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Old May 29th, 2016, 05:55 PM   #20
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Derrick,
Good, now you can learn jumps. Not just toe jumps but jumps in general. you need those toe stops to protected yourself from falling, so I am very glad you put them in.

As for a half mapes, it's a start. This is for CCW rotation looking from head down; Extend the left arm forward with tension, slight shoulder forward with tension, right arm to the side with not as much tension, right shoulder in line with the right arm right shoulder over your right hip, hips square with your travel, don't twist your hips. As you toe off, keep hips square, don't rotate till you pop up from your right foot and left toe stop. As you pop up, snap the left arm and shoulder that is extended in front with tension so that the shoulders are now square with your hips and slightly bring your arms in for a half mapes and all the way for a single. As you leave the floor your body is straight up and down, shoulders and hips are square, both arms are tight but brought in. Keep tension on those arms. Don't jerk, make it smooth.

You will do this "Snap" in a split second but CONTROLLED. The shoulder movement is only a few inches before it is inline (square) with your hips. Just a few inches is all you need for a half or a single mapes, the snap of the shoulders as you jump (which is a snap it self) is enough to start your rotation, moving your arms in speeds up the rotation.

In a split second you will undo your previous movement and open your arms and move that left shoulder forward which will undo your rotation.
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Jim (The Ancient One)
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