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Old September 25th, 2017, 05:46 PM   #61
amohrfeld
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After some more thought, I think your skates felt different than mine for two reasons: 1. You use less pre-compression then I do. 2. You probably have a steeper axis of rotation. I might be at a DA 43-45. Where you might be at 47-48. We don't really know since there is no good way to measure this.
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Old September 25th, 2017, 06:45 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
After some more thought, I think your skates felt different than mine for two reasons: 1. You use less pre-compression then I do. 2. You probably have a steeper axis of rotation. I might be at a DA 43-45. Where you might be at 47-48. We don't really know since there is no good way to measure this.
That little bit of caster change means a lot. My trucks usually are closer than stock DA45s(usually perfectly at right angles to the KP) to the plate which slows the steering down. I shimmed 2 times Sunday and they are close to where I like them but some cushion combinations are going to have to dealt with too. After the shimming was done, they are almost exactly where they were when I started skating yesterday with my old setup(same caster). And as I said before, I will be doing some clearancing around the cushion pocket and axle. But no damage at all yesterday to the cushions!
Measuring the caster is tough because cushions on a DA45 allow caster to change. Right now my skates are turning great, but have too much kickback at strokes end. So last night and today I ordered some more cushions to play with. Cushions make huge changes, more than most give them credit for. It can make so much difference that a person could hate their skates for years not knowing a few changes can make them loved.....
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Old September 28th, 2017, 12:10 PM   #63
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Default new batch of cones

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

Testing skateboard cones, 3/4" tall this weekend. Riot makes the Blackwidow bushing sets that are similar to what I had been using from Sure Grip, except Riots's blackwidows are 1 piece. So cool to have the room made into the plate to allow testing stuff that is out of the normal range of production plates.

All this is delaying my next set or two of plates.....

Last edited by fierocious1; September 28th, 2017 at 06:38 PM.
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Old September 28th, 2017, 07:49 PM   #64
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What is the hardness of the yellow ones you had on the skate?
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Old September 28th, 2017, 08:05 PM   #65
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What is the hardness of the yellow ones you had on the skate?
80a. Riots. I also ordered Riptides in 78a orange. More testing this weekend.. wish I had ordered one step softer Black Widows now.

According to Riot, cones give the most lean. So I do have plenty of things to combine and try out now. Not sure if Ill be in Spring Sunday or not though.
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Old October 2nd, 2017, 01:59 AM   #66
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Default Good skate today.

Went to the rink set up with Yellow(Riot) upper and lower cones. Finished the day with 78a Riptide cones on top front and both upper and lower on the rears. The lower on the fronts were Riot 80a Yellow cones.
Handling was very predictable, with definite kickback at the end of long strokes. I could not get it to go away as easily as a triple cone setup. So I left it in and adjusted little on the stroke. Fast and stable. The floor was not crowded today and I was able to make some really good laps for a change. Not top speed by no means but fast enough to know that I like the taller cones. Not much ramp up until leaned out near the limit. I believe a person if they had some old invaders and some RED Loctite and reverse kingpins to install, just remove the nut completely. Then install as if the nut was there(leave threads out of the plate the thickness of the nut) let the locktite set for a couple of days and add tall cushions. I am using the Riptide WFB 78a cone cushions and 80a Riot cone cushions. Riot is out of business so you may want to get the next harder set of Riptides. You may come up short on the bottom of the truck though, the stud may be too short to run a tall cone on bottom. But you can still use a standard cone and it probably would remove the bit of kickback I am seeing on my plates. The taller cones give more than the shorter ones. I just don't have any Riptide standard cones to test.
A very good evening, had a good time. BTW, the newly coated floor is shining so much! Awesome traction and smooth!
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Old October 9th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #67
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Default Three sessions with tall cones

and no damage. I believe with as soft of a suspension I am running that the left front truck was just being pushed over so far that the urethane was breaking down from being crushed. Not enough room for the urethane to be displaced to, so it tore and then was shredded. The taller cushion, 3/4" single below the truck handles the compression/displacement better than a single 1/2" cone. So problem solved. Maybe there was a reason the old SA plates were tall barrels in the first place.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:54 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
After some more thought, I think your skates felt different than mine for two reasons: 1. You use less pre-compression then I do. 2. You probably have a steeper axis of rotation. I might be at a DA 43-45. Where you might be at 47-48. We don't really know since there is no good way to measure this.
It can be measured, but we would have to make some mechanical reference points on the trucks and plates.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #69
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It can be measured, but we would have to make some mechanical reference points on the trucks and plates.
I just mounted some Roll Line Dance plates and these things have me baffled. They have a turning radius similar to my imperial and Royals, but they are very finicky and jittery. I am wondering if they are close to a 45 degree rotation axis. If so then I am wondering if the jittery feel comes from the steeper king pin. My previously analysis showed that the king pin angle had little effect on the behavior. But now I'm questioning that analysis.
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Old October 10th, 2017, 10:43 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
I just mounted some Roll Line Dance plates and these things have me baffled. They have a turning radius similar to my imperial and Royals, but they are very finicky and jittery. I am wondering if they are close to a 45 degree rotation axis. If so then I am wondering if the jittery feel comes from the steeper king pin. My previously analysis showed that the king pin angle had little effect on the behavior. But now I'm questioning that analysis.
Your analysis was correct. King pin angle affects cushion movement. Caster is totally separate from that. However the two of them combined set up stability or not.
Cushion hardness also comes into play, imo the quicker the response the harder you have to go with cushions. Change the caster to slow response, then much softer cushions can be used.

Last edited by fierocious1; October 11th, 2017 at 02:19 AM.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 02:35 AM   #71
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Your analysis was correct. King pin angle affects cushion movement. Caster is totally separate from that. However the two of them combined set up stability or not.
Cushion hardness also comes into play, imo the quicker the response the harder you have to go with cushions. Change the caster to slow response, then much softer cushions can be used.
The Dance setup is defiantly quicker but I have not fully understood why. I think the larger cushion has a lot to do with it. I had a hard time setting the pivot pin - could not tell if I was bottomed out or too far - so this is a clue.
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Old October 11th, 2017, 03:17 AM   #72
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The Dance setup is defiantly quicker but I have not fully understood why. I think the larger cushion has a lot to do with it. I had a hard time setting the pivot pin - could not tell if I was bottomed out or too far - so this is a clue.
caster, not kp angle is why. Too soft of a cushion adds to the issue or as you are seeing maybe the pivot pin setting. That can be an issue if it is way too far out. You may have to set the cushion compression first before setting the pivot pin.

On DA45s, the pivot pin will push the truck slot out of position if extended too far(pivot positions the center of the slot and cushions). On non-DA45s, the pivot adjustment will unload the top cushion if extended too far. Could lead to breaking trucks or kps.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #73
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Default New set of cones.. update

Working well, smooth. I am using on the front, Riptide and Riot 3/4" tall cones. On the rear, Riptides only. The cushions being so long really smooth out the ramp up, a lot. But I need some more cones to play with so I can work on the caster curve a little. Right now these skates are the best handling ones Ive been able to build. A little kick back at the end of the stroke but thats what the next cushions are for, reduction. The cushions are working so good that I think i could put my cup washers back on and it would not affect handling, except for the shimming they would add. Anyway a couple more videos of cushion action. These videos were on the floor in Lufkin, short floor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkl1sD0Xs50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFFcKRGtCR0

Champions new floor is eating wheels!! Left front lower cushion damage is gone. The extra cushion length allows the cushion to move easier instead of getting crushed like the shorter cushions do.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 11:35 AM   #74
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Default plenty of action there

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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkl1sD0Xs50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFFcKRGtCR0

Champions new floor is eating wheels!! Left front lower cushion damage is gone. The extra cushion length allows the cushion to move easier instead of getting crushed like the shorter cushions do.
Good work!
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Old October 30th, 2017, 12:12 PM   #75
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Good work!
A few more tests and it will be time to make some new plates. Still work left. Clearancing the truck's cushion pockets...reducing weight there.. A little more cushion work. Probably looking to go to different kps. A new strategy on lightening holes in the plate but retain the strength. My plates seem to be a little tall because of the boots. App 1/4" taller. Getting there, little by little. Just ordered some 3/4" 83a tall cones from Riptide. Man the skateboard cushions are expensive! High quality though. So testing the long cones will continue.....
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Old November 6th, 2017, 01:32 AM   #76
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Default These are done!

Good strong, smooth resistance to push, with no kickback. Ordered some more cushions, ran some more tests today and testing is now over. Got to make mods to prints for the next plate set. The push is now as far as I care to shove out with out the trucks trying to turn in and kick back. Very even push and solid. Very stable at speed and will turn hard at speed as well. Also no more damage to the cushions from being crushed. Been a long time coming but I am finally satisfied.

Next plate will be an experiment with something Dillo was playing with but denying could be tuned the way I tune them. SA trucks with cushions on bottom of the trucks that can be tuned like the DA45.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

Now to take dimensions and make the plates for the 3/4" cones. And other mods.

Last edited by fierocious1; November 6th, 2017 at 11:54 PM.
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