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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:01 AM   #1
maltoch
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Default bearings spacers ans washers.

http://www.cdk.fr/aluminium-spacer-rbk2-608-16147.html

first of all, i always used spacers
i found it rolls better and less bad bearing noise.
i always the screw to nuts completely and unscrew about half a turn or about and check there is a little play on the axle.
if i screw the nuts too much...wheels don t roll at all.

so i decided to sand spacers.

my objective was to have no free play between all the turning assembly...and that i could screw the nut and block everything.
my actual spacers have a little gap between the 2 bearings.
i sanded the spacer until there is no gap at all betewsen the bearings.
result...when the spacer offers a little gap between the bearings, it rolls better.

i tried to add washers, first near the truck ....after near the nuts....the 2 sides....it s worste in every configuration.

tried the washers added to my classic spacers and sanded spacers....it worst.

so...some like spacer others not...everone its choice... i prefer with them.

it seems that spacers need a little bit gap between bearings inside the wheel hub.
it seems that washers don t give any gain outside of bearings.

in conclusion with or without spacers, insert the bearings in wheels and screw nut but you need a little play.
unscrew the nuts until you obtain no more gain when spinning your wheels.

that s what i tested

i found in the past that when i was inline skater...spacers that can be inserted in bearings where great.



if other people tried something else.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 10:18 AM   #2
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the link is for inline bearings...
i found this spacer gave more speed when i was in line.
can they be adapted to 7 mm axle ?
can i obtain a gain?
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 01:32 PM   #3
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You'd be better off discussing religion or politics.

This controversy has raged for decades. Some skaters swear by spacers, some don't. Here's what I know:

Spacers on roller skate wheels are a mixed bag.

In wheels with no solid hub, they do provide a benefit. The wheels conform enough under the pressure of the wheel nut and that spacers can maintain the alignment between the bearings. The result is fewer losses from binding or misaligned bearings.

Due to manufacturing inconsistencies, getting spacers to work in wheels with a solid bearing hub of some kind is a lot of work for not a lot of benefit. The bearings are already in good alignment due to the hub, and the distance between the inner seats and the width of the spacer, even in wheels all from the same manufacturer, vary enough that things just don't sit like they need to.

It all depends on how hard you're willing to work.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 03:15 PM   #4
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Actually, the bearing spacer should fit exactly in the space between the bearing flanges, and speed washers should be on both sides of the bearings, on the outside, they take up the slop caused by the offset of the threads which offset the nuts used to snug things up, on the inside they make a perfect match for the bearing against the bearing flange, (which hopefully is exactly 90 degrees to the axle), in a perfect world.
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 06:36 PM   #5
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Check out ratvision.com good videos, easy to understand, but uts in english. There are visuals, so it helps.

I dont find that bearing spacers help with alignments of coreless wheels, because they really dont. What it does is aligns the inner races to the width of the spacer if the nut is cranked all the way down. This can hurt freespin a bit. Depending on the hubs of the wheels.

A snug fit of the spacers ID to the axle OD helps stiffen the axle, causing less deflection and to a degree, increases power transfer. How much, I cant say, that depends on the quality of the parts that make the assembly . By keeping the axles more true under load, theoretically the deflection will happen only in the wheel.

Typically the nuts we use on our axles are already faced true to the threads and that the least of the problems. Also you cannot juat sand a spacer down. Minuscule differences of width from side to side of the spacer cam throw things out of alignment. The spacer must be cut perfectly perpendicular to the bore. Also the trucks face where the axle protrudes must be cut perpendicular to the axle. Getting everything perfect so there is no change in free spin is not an easy task.

Speed ring are not a necessity, all they do is add a gap from the truck to the bearing/wheel and the other bearing to the nut. Unless one has clearance issues, they are not required.

I like spacers, I like the solid feeling , but most of my wheels are not set up for them
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Old May 23rd, 2016, 08:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Actually, the bearing spacer should fit exactly in the space between the bearing flanges, and speed washers should be on both sides of the bearings, on the outside, they take up the slop caused by the offset of the threads which offset the nuts used to snug things up, on the inside they make a perfect match for the bearing against the bearing flange, (which hopefully is exactly 90 degrees to the axle), in a perfect world.
Without a diagram, this explanation might as well be written in Egyptian hieroglyphs.
Perhaps it needs a Glossary of terminology?

"offset of the threads" →???
"bearing flanges" →??? inner race inside face?
"offset the nuts" → ???

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Old May 24th, 2016, 01:17 PM   #7
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Sorry Do, I forgot you're special



This is a hub with a bearing insert, the insert sits next to the flange, can you work that out?



The axle and the bearing are perpendicular, but the threads of the axle offset the perpendicular aspect unless the machining is perfect, so, a 1/2mm speed washer helps the slight offset

And it's been the same since the 80's, in "Hollywood", where there were never any doubts that chem-trails wouldn't exist today, but special people can think what they want, until they become a danger to others.
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Old May 25th, 2016, 01:03 AM   #8
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Sorry Do, I forgot you're special



This is a hub with a bearing insert, the insert sits next to the flange, can you work that out?



The axle and the bearing are perpendicular, but the threads of the axle offset the perpendicular aspect unless the machining is perfect, so, a 1/2mm speed washer helps the slight offset

And it's been the same since the 80's, in "Hollywood", where there were never any doubts that chem-trails wouldn't exist today, but special people can think what they want, until they become a danger to others.
OK, so your "axle offset" term means ANGULAR OFFSET of thread cut's axis to the axle's OD cylinder axis, which skews the nut face (assuming it's perfect) away from being parallel with the nut side bearing inner race's outside face.

IMO, there is no reason to worrying about this, especially if you use Bones bearings, because the amount of angular wiggle of a Bones bearing inner race relative to its outer race will always be greater than the skew angle offset between an axle OD and the axle's thread.

So what if the inner race wobbles slightly as it rotates inside the outer race, as long as internal clearances allow for this without ball pinch, which is a design feature of Bones bearings.

BTW, you failed to identify the "bearing flange" in your wheel diagram, skates normally don't use flanged face bearings.

Also, the "Hub Flange" is effectively a primary outer race bearing spacer, and the diagram's blue spacer is really a secondary inner race spacer. Getting them to have the appropriate matching dimensions is where all the challenges arise when inner race spacers are desired.

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Old May 25th, 2016, 06:03 AM   #9
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if i understand.
i can test with a washer under the nut only.
but i keep a little free play ?
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Old May 25th, 2016, 07:23 PM   #10
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if i understand.
i can test with a washer under the nut only.
but i keep a little free play ?
As long as the BLUE inner race spacer is only ~.001 to 003" wider than:

1) the GRAY inside hub flange width (if normal 608 bearing are used)
2) the GRAY inside hub flange width added to the two flange widths of the green 688 bearing adapters (if 688 micro bearings are used).

- then you should torque the axle nuts tightly enough that the inner races and their spacer are all locked tightly together.

The outer races may still slip laterally within the remaining .001 - .003" larger space they have to wiggle, but that only happens when they fit rather loosely when you press them into the hub.

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Old November 3rd, 2017, 01:08 AM   #11
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Installed a spacer and inside/outside washers and tightened nut all the way. Suregrip Zombies roll many times longer than before. Spacers and washers recommended by Suregrip but not easy to find; 2N1 Skate Shoppe in Alaska was the only online skate shop offering them. Anxious to skate them on Friday and will give report.

Skated them today and I am not an expert on analyzing differences in equipment and do not have the ability to push equipment to the limit, but glad that I installed them. Felt more solid and efficient. Ease of installation was a plus. Don't have the ability to machine parts so glad to not have complications due to parts not matching.

Last edited by Dekindy; November 4th, 2017 at 01:40 AM.
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Old November 3rd, 2017, 06:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Actually, the bearing spacer should fit exactly in the space between the bearing flanges, and speed washers should be on both sides of the bearings, on the outside, they take up the slop caused by the offset of the threads which offset the nuts used to snug things up, on the inside they make a perfect match for the bearing against the bearing flange, (which hopefully is exactly 90 degrees to the axle), in a perfect world.
Perfect explanation!

Spacers and washers (called "speed rings" in the skateboard world) ensure that the two bearing inner races are perfectly parallel with each other. The washers insure that truck hanger end (where the axle emerges from it) and the nyloc nut's inner surface are perfectly parallel with the inner race on the outside. So...truck, axle, washer, bearing, spacer, bearing, washer, nut. EASY!



Funny how this is a point of contention in the roller skate world (quads) but longboarders and inline skaters just use spacers as a matter of course without all the drama.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 01:09 AM   #13
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Perfect explanation!

Spacers and washers (called "speed rings" in the skateboard world) ensure that the two bearing inner races are perfectly parallel with each other. The washers insure that truck hanger end (where the axle emerges from it) and the nyloc nut's inner surface are perfectly parallel with the inner race on the outside. So...truck, axle, washer, bearing, spacer, bearing, washer, nut. EASY!



Funny how this is a point of contention in the roller skate world (quads) but longboarders and inline skaters just use spacers as a matter of course without all the drama.
on inlines you just about cannot go without spacers, they help the keep teh frame tied together for structural strength. The frames do not have a lot of bracing in them, so the axles and spacers tie it all together to help.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 02:24 AM   #14
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The real issue is quad wheel dimensions are not a standard.

If a spacer is too short it does absolutely nothing. If it is too long it pushes the bearing out of the wheel.

If the spacer is sized correctly you fully tighten the axle nut against the bearing. This removes the small slop that would otherwise be required between the bearings and the ends (truck and nut).

I have taken apart a bunch of wheels that had spacers that were too short. I just smirk and throw the spacer in a bin.

I'll use spacers one day. But right not I'm addressing other issues that have more of an impact on skating.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 02:39 AM   #15
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on inlines you just about cannot go without spacers, they help the keep teh frame tied together for structural strength. The frames do not have a lot of bracing in them, so the axles and spacers tie it all together to help.
And.... when properly tuning speed inlines micrometers or calipers are required to get the spacing dead nuts...Oh, than a a big bag o' spacers. There is a lot more variability in the inline spacers than one would think. Most times it's not worth the effort, however when going to nationals every smidge helps.

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Old November 4th, 2017, 02:47 AM   #16
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The real issue is quad wheel dimensions are not a standard. ^ This. ( they are not constant in inline speed wheels either )

If a spacer is too short it does absolutely nothing.

Unless the sk8r runs the nut down tight. Then you have other issues.

If it is too long it pushes the bearing out of the wheel.

Or the wheels slide back and forth on the bearings.

If the spacer is sized correctly you fully tighten the axle nut against the bearing. This removes the small slop that would otherwise be required between the bearings and the ends (truck and nut).

This may also remove the necessary lateral free play that keeps the balls centered in the races. Remember, radial ball bearings are NOT intended to be side loaded. Since quads do that anyway, no need to add insult to injury. If that bothers you find some angular contact bearings.


I have taken apart a bunch of wheels that had spacers that were too short. I just smirk and throw the spacer in a bin.

Yeah, pretty much...

I'll use spacers one day. But right not I'm addressing other issues that have more of an impact on skating.
I'll tell ya right up front, spacers are a waste of time and energy. ( I know I have wasted my time and energy trying to find any kind of performance improvement.) I'm still waiting for someone to prove they have them set up properly and they have actually done something other than adding few extra grams to your sk8s.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 05:46 AM   #17
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I'll tell ya right up front, spacers are a waste of time and energy. ( I know I have wasted my time and energy trying to find any kind of performance improvement.) I'm still waiting for someone to prove they have them set up properly and they have actually done something other than adding few extra grams to your sk8s.
My setup is not typical but here's my results.

I handmade some spacers for my Royal Assassins. They have a large impact on the way the skate behaves. However that is mostly due to the Arius axle threads being a smaller OD than where the inside bearing sits. That slop on the outside bearing to axle fitment causes a loss of traction. It also allows a wheel assembly to vibrate easily. The spacer lets me lock it down, preventing it from moving at all. This greatly dampens the wheel and increases traction.

How much a correctly setup spacer influences a person's skates depends on a person's skates.

Ultimately the outer race would be fixed to the hubs. I did that once with some loctite, but the way I assembled things was flawed due to my bearing press.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 12:31 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
The real issue is quad wheel dimensions are not a standard.

If a spacer is too short it does absolutely nothing. If it is too long it pushes the bearing out of the wheel.

If the spacer is sized correctly you fully tighten the axle nut against the bearing. This removes the small slop that would otherwise be required between the bearings and the ends (truck and nut).

I have taken apart a bunch of wheels that had spacers that were too short. I just smirk and throw the spacer in a bin.

I'll use spacers one day. But right not I'm addressing other issues that have more of an impact on skating.
dimensions are very important when using spacers. It is better to have a spacer just little long than to be too short. Too short and your bearings go into bind. Too long, just a little end play, which really is not a bad thing. Good to see you back on here.

Bearings spacers setups done correctly vs no spacers is like the comparison of expensive bearings vs cheaper bearings. A lot of time or money for so little results that it makes it not worth the effort.

For bowls, outdoors and jumping, it is about strengthening the axles, yes it is worth using them, but in a looser way, slightly longer spacers so that you do not go into bearing bind. At least the bearings can find their own centers if they have room to move in the wheel bores. Face it, bearings move around in the bores no matter what you do. So let them breath and do their job.
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Old November 4th, 2017, 05:25 PM   #19
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At least the bearings can find their own centers if they have room to move in the wheel bores. Face it, bearings move around in the bores no matter what you do. So let them breath and do their job.
That just gave me a thought!

If one were to go the spacer route slightly longer spacers are definitely better. However leaving it up to bore clearance to allow the bearing to "find" it's correct place sounds iffy to me. How about an adapter for the bearing press that would seat the second bearing using only force on the inner race?

Installing bearings would go like this:
  • Seat all the outside bearings normally.
  • Flip the wheel over and slide a spacer onto the press rod.
  • Slide the inside bearing onto the press rod
  • Slide a press adapter that has a 22mm OD and steps down to 11mm to contact only the inner race.
  • Press the bearing until in firm contact between the inner bearing race and spacer is obtained.

I know that this is essentially what seating the bearings using the nut on the axle does. However there are some wheel bores that are such a tight fit you may never get there. And besides, some of us like tools...

Another thought on the adapter concerns centering. Using the press rod is the normal method for centering. One could make an adapter for 8mm and one for 7mm. One could center a 8mm adapter on a 7mm bore by eye. Or if the big end of the adapter had a slight step down "dish" profile it could likely be centered by the press anvil.

How long should your spacers be? Like Doc says this is the realm of precision tools. The tool I made to measure the bearing spacer distance in a wheel looks like this:






Usage is stack two bearings and zero the indicator. Then put the tool on a wheel with seated bearings and read out the distance. The absolute value is the wheel's bearing spacer distance. Your spacer needs to be a bit longer that the measurement.

I spent considerable effort measuring this distance directly but found that once bearings were installed my measurements were sometimes "off". By installing the bearings I eliminated several variables resulting in greater accuracy in real world skating.

While you can do this with a pointer style dial indicator it's a LOT easier with a digital one!

.
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Old November 5th, 2017, 03:48 AM   #20
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That just gave me a thought!

If one were to go the spacer route slightly longer spacers are definitely better. However leaving it up to bore clearance to allow the bearing to "find" it's correct place sounds iffy to me. How about an adapter for the bearing press that would seat the second bearing using only force on the inner race?

Installing bearings would go like this:
  • Seat all the outside bearings normally.
  • Flip the wheel over and slide a spacer onto the press rod.
  • Slide the inside bearing onto the press rod
  • Slide a press adapter that has a 22mm OD and steps down to 11mm to contact only the inner race.
  • Press the bearing until in firm contact between the inner bearing race and spacer is obtained.

I know that this is essentially what seating the bearings using the nut on the axle does. However there are some wheel bores that are such a tight fit you may never get there. And besides, some of us like tools...

Another thought on the adapter concerns centering. Using the press rod is the normal method for centering. One could make an adapter for 8mm and one for 7mm. One could center a 8mm adapter on a 7mm bore by eye. Or if the big end of the adapter had a slight step down "dish" profile it could likely be centered by the press anvil.

How long should your spacers be? Like Doc says this is the realm of precision tools. The tool I made to measure the bearing spacer distance in a wheel looks like this:






Usage is stack two bearings and zero the indicator. Then put the tool on a wheel with seated bearings and read out the distance. The absolute value is the wheel's bearing spacer distance. Your spacer needs to be a bit longer that the measurement.

I spent considerable effort measuring this distance directly but found that once bearings were installed my measurements were sometimes "off". By installing the bearings I eliminated several variables resulting in greater accuracy in real world skating.

While you can do this with a pointer style dial indicator it's a LOT easier with a digital one!

.
I have found that most bearing bores even if tight(not super tight) usually let the bearing find a way to move. Now on the old Fan jet hubs(they were very very tight) you had to fight them to get the bearings out or in. They were tough. But nearly every wheel I have ran in the last 3 years are a snug fit, so the bearing does get to move around. Since you are making mostly left turns I have found them to move to the left. I have to tap the wheels a little to move a bearing to flip the latches. Its very common and has happened on every wheel I have had on my skates since I got flips. You just don't notice it when you are using nuts. That is when I noticed happening in the first place. So either be perfect with or just run without and save yourself some time. But like I said, = .004 yep good to go.

If I were going to perfectly seat a bearing, I would push only on the outer race, But for now I just use my dinky powerdyne. With the bores being what they are, no need to add anything extra.

I like tools too. But I value my time as well. With so little to gain, I'll work on the plates and cushions.
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