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Old March 28th, 2018, 11:11 PM   #41
netplaceus
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Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post
I have a learned a lot about spacers through all these multitudes of posts. Some opinions I agree with and some I do not. Some opinions are given as fact and I doubt that seriously that their posts are accurate or true or correct.

But one thing I have learned is Roll Line Wheels have some of the best accuracies when dealing with manufacturing tolerances. And their spacers are machined as well or better than anybody else's in the world.

Did you know when you buy a pair of "High End" Roll Line roller skates, they come with spacers and nylon lock nuts to hold the wheels onto the axels. They do not come with standard steel nuts, like in the good old days. In fact, I doubt you could buy a pair of roller skates today and have them come with steel nuts to hold on the roller skate wheels onto the axles.

When you buy Roll Line wheels they do not come with spacers. You have to purchase them separately at an extra cost. Spacers only come when you purchase Roll Line roller skates! Why?

So, what this tells me, is when you buy a very expensive Roll Line roller skate, they want you to use the spacers supplied, but they don't want you to lock down the wheels real tight. I believe this setup gives the serious competitor an advantage and it suggested and supplied by the manufacturer.

And I assume Roll Line roller skates are some of the best in the world, their spacers unmatched and nylon lock nuts supplied provide enough force to hold the bearings and spacers in place.


Sincerely,

Larry O ...and I think only one other wheel mentioned in the posts recommends spacers and I'm sure this manufacturer expected you would you use nylon lock nuts and not standard steel nuts supplied, like in the good old days...lol!

So I feel if you are not using Roll Line wheels/Skates or that one other wheel manufacturer mentioned it really doesn't matter and would be a detriment because most wheels, spacers and skates are not manufactured to the high tolerances to use spacers and to get the added benefit if there was any benefit to begin with..lol?
"Spacers only come when you purchase Roll Line roller skates! Why?"

I bought 4 sets in past few years, all came with spacers. Maybe it depends where you buy them from?, I don't know. I buy them from http://www.rollerskateusa.com Or it may be something new they are doing.
Also, they might be of less value if you are not using Roll-line plates. Their shafts are never going to be too short, etc.

I'm a big Roll-Line fan. I absolutely love their Panther wheels (on the right floor), incredible roll and they don't make hardly any noise when they slide.
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Old March 29th, 2018, 03:26 AM   #42
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I'm a big Roll-Line fan. <snip> they don't make hardly any noise when they slide.
No noise when sliding? Where's the fun in that!
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Old March 29th, 2018, 08:32 AM   #43
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No noise when sliding? Where's the fun in that!
The truth is when I first got them the "quit factor" bugged the hell out of me!
I really did not like them. I guess I got used to it, cause now I love the quieter, smoother ride. Go figure!
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Old March 29th, 2018, 10:28 PM   #44
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A followup:

I wrote the original article Doc quoted in the 2nd post. I wrote it years ago.

And I still do not run spacers to this day. And my skates work just fine without them.



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Old April 2nd, 2018, 06:29 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Machine View Post
A followup:

I wrote the original article Doc quoted in the 2nd post. I wrote it years ago.

And I still do not run spacers to this day. And my skates work just fine without them.

-Mike-
Of course they still work. A spacer is never required, well unless you need it to put torque on the nuts because they have no self locking ability

But there are effects of having them properly set up. Wether a person skates at the conditions they are needed to see the advantages is what will make them viable to a skater or not.

Also gear selection makes a difference too. Some combos will have a drastic difference between having the nuts backed off a 1/4 turn vs cranking the nuts down to engage the spacers.

Some setups won't see quite as much difference. The looser the fit of the wheel assembly between the axle and bearings inner races, the more influential a locked down setup will be to the skate.

What makes matters worse is not all bearings are the same. I have some perfectly matched spacers in my assassins. Well the other day I measured the hubs to compare them to the spacers...

I got 11.93 on my spacers.

I got 12.05 mms on the actual bearing seat width... WTF ?! Lol

Normally this would DEFINITELY cause a binding issue. However the bearings are to blame. The inner race is wider than the outer race. So it requires a spacer that is less wide than the actual bearing seat widths of the wheels. Ah, another reason why ABEC ratings are iimportant... bBut, had they been 5mm wide in both inner and outer races from the get go, I wouldn't have been able to make the spacers like I did. Since they are made from 1 608 and 1 688 inner race. Which was about 11.99 wide. Then I took the 608 inner races and hand lapped them down for each wheel. I never measured the seat widths until yesterday. Since the combo of those inner races and bearings were too wide in the first place, and my micrometers battery was dead and I did not have a spare at the time... Lol I just kept test fitting till it was right.

I cranked down my spacers the other night at Sat session, had a blast with the extra grip/speed/cornering.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 01:51 PM   #46
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Default Didnt somebodey state this?

If you run the correct spacers and the nuts are tightened up just enough to stop wheel float,then your axles will never come adrift.
But the side effect is on a wavey floor your wheels wont move to the contours and not have a full contact area with the floor.
My axles always end up loose and i never ran spacers
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 07:07 PM   #47
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If you run the correct spacers and the nuts are tightened up just enough to stop wheel float,then your axles will never come adrift.
But the side effect is on a wavey floor your wheels wont move to the contours and not have a full contact area with the floor.
My axles always end up loose and i never ran spacers
That's live axle vs independent

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Old April 2nd, 2018, 07:51 PM   #48
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If you run the correct spacers and the nuts are tightened up just enough to stop wheel float,then your axles will never come adrift.
But the side effect is on a wavey floor your wheels wont move to the contours and not have a full contact area with the floor.
My axles always end up loose and i never ran spacers
This is one of the reason I dont run spacers. I skate different floors with different irregularities. So in My case, The wheels can adapt to the varying surfaces better without spacers. If you skate a extremely well sanded floor, exclusively, spacers may work well for you. I just will not take that kind of time away from other things that I do to fit bearings for such an unproven gain other than a strength upgrade.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 09:35 PM   #49
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This is one of the reason I dont run spacers. I skate different floors with different irregularities. So in My case, The wheels can adapt to the varying surfaces better without spacers. If you skate a extremely well sanded floor, exclusively, spacers may work well for you. I just will not take that kind of time away from other things that I do to fit bearings for such an unproven gain other than a strength upgrade.

You run flips, so you cant add compressive force to the wheel, so doing anything other than creating a perfect assembly with the outer races loctite'd to the hubs and the bearing spacer made for the hub/bearing combo for true load sharing won't make any difference.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 01:19 AM   #50
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You run flips, so you cant add compressive force to the wheel, so doing anything other than creating a perfect assembly with the outer races loctite'd to the hubs and the bearing spacer made for the hub/bearing combo for true load sharing won't make any difference.
I also run nylocks on other skates which is almost the same as flips the way I run them. I dont compress the assembly at all, but theoretically, if you do get the spacing perfect, bearing drag is double. Any working bearing produces a very minute amount of drag, both bearings perfectly spaced makes both bearings take side loads. The question is wether or not the total drag of 2 bearings is more than a single bearing. My viewpoint is that is 7 ball bearings producing less drag than 8, or 8 less than 16?
The fewer the parts, hard parts that do not compress, still there is less running drag.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 03:24 AM   #51
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I also run nylocks on other skates which is almost the same as flips the way I run them. I dont compress the assembly at all, but theoretically, if you do get the spacing perfect, bearing drag is double. Any working bearing produces a very minute amount of drag, both bearings perfectly spaced makes both bearings take side loads. The question is wether or not the total drag of 2 bearings is more than a single bearing. My viewpoint is that is 7 ball bearings producing less drag than 8, or 8 less than 16?
The fewer the parts, hard parts that do not compress, still there is less running drag.
I get what you're saying. However the parts are already rotating and producing drag.

More load displacement will result in less binding It reduces friction if more than 1 bearing is able to take the loads applied to the skate, I'm sure at some point there is diminishing returns, say if 100 bearings were sharing a load usually seen by a skating stride, I'm sure at that point the load would be so small your running torque requirement would actually be higher.

Also a spacer setup with fixed outer races is the only way it would truely load share.


Since all the bearings are already "in use" it only makes sense to share the load across them for friction reduction and that would lead to longer service life. Which for 608/627 isn't a big deal, but a micro bearing has a lot less load handling capabilities, so they would likely see a lot better wear rates. I'm not the only one around this forum who has blown up micros.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 11:14 AM   #52
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I get what you're saying. However the parts are already rotating and producing drag.

More load displacement will result in less binding It reduces friction if more than 1 bearing is able to take the loads applied to the skate, I'm sure at some point there is diminishing returns, say if 100 bearings were sharing a load usually seen by a skating stride, I'm sure at that point the load would be so small your running torque requirement would actually be higher.

Also a spacer setup with fixed outer races is the only way it would truely load share.


Since all the bearings are already "in use" it only makes sense to share the load across them for friction reduction and that would lead to longer service life. Which for 608/627 isn't a big deal, but a micro bearing has a lot less load handling capabilities, so they would likely see a lot better wear rates. I'm not the only one around this forum who has blown up micros.
The real question is, does a bearing have more drag under load or not. So far all both sides of the argument have is theory.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:07 PM   #53
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The real question is, does a bearing have more drag under load or not. So far all both sides of the argument have is theory.
Of course they do lol.

How much is what is important. Maybe set up a pressure device to laterally load 1 bearing with about 75 lbs of force, then measure the amount of pressure it takes to turn that bearing while held in such a constraint.

When a simple snugging of an axle nut is enough to radically reduce free spin , under quad skating loads must produce a lot of drag. Where inlines produce loads more on the radial side. A bearing is substantially stronger this way so less resistance is made. Kinda sucks for quads in this area.

I'd love to buy up some ACB bearings and get some wheels made up to see how it works out.


Edit

Tonight I'll loctite my assassins and try them this weekend.
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Old April 3rd, 2018, 10:28 PM   #54
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Tonight I'll loctite my assassins and try them this weekend.
Due to the amount of wear on the hubs on my Labeda Interceptors, I had to use a bit of Loctite to secure the bearings in. I couldn't get hold of any 609, so had to go with 641, which is stronger, but hard to remove without heat and solvent.
I consider the bearings to now be part of the wheel.... partners until the end.
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Old April 4th, 2018, 05:11 PM   #55
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I'm not the only one around this forum who has blown up micros.
Without pictures it didn't happen...

.
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Old April 5th, 2018, 07:53 AM   #56
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Without pictures it didn't happen...

.
Didn't take pictures of the ones I ruined. Not sure that other dude on the forum who was skating a race when his roll line bearings failed took pictures either. My kid blew up some micros as well.

They don't take as much to kill, so if there are slight manufacturer issues they pop off pretty easily.

Even 608/627 bearings frag out. Although this is usually due to poor cages, and the balls just bunch up then the bearings come apart. I've pulled a few bones reds cages off to clean them and found issues with them having large dents or the ribbon broken or so thin it was barely hanging on. As well as seen the crowns of the phenolic retainers misshapen which can cause them to pop off the balls when changing direction of rotation at high speeds and such.
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Old April 5th, 2018, 08:33 AM   #57
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A followup:

I wrote the original article Doc quoted in the 2nd post. I wrote it years ago.

And I still do not run spacers to this day. And my skates work just fine without them.



-Mike-
I'll skate to that. Have been for 11 years now.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 04:23 AM   #58
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Didn't take pictures of the ones I ruined. Not sure that other dude on the forum who was skating a race when his roll line bearings failed took pictures either. My kid blew up some micros as well.
Yep, lots of stories, no pix!

A search of the forum yields little except tales, anecdotes and speculation about durability by many. I note that both Doc and DVW have and are running micros with no problem.


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They don't take as much to kill, so if there are slight manufacturer issues they pop off pretty easily.
I don't buy that.

I've been skating the piss out of a set of Bont 167 bearings in Paco hubs for over two years now. Roll great! Very consistent from wheel to wheel. I've never even attempted to clean or lube since there is no indication they might need such fiddling.

As it relates to this discussion spacers between micro bearings would be very difficult to pull off. One of the reasons I think spacers are a fools errand has to do with the difficulty of getting the balls centered in the races. As long as there is some float they self center and roll smooth. Once you use spacers and lock the inner races down it's almost guaranteed that the balls won't be centered in the races. Spacers would certainly be a good way to destroy a micro bearing since the tolerance is much smaller.

As a test I compared side to side movement between a Bont 167 and a Bones Swiss 627 bearing. I fit a 1/4x20 bolt and nut through the center of the bearing and chucked the bearing in a lathe. A dial indicator was placed touching the center of the bolt head. A piece of 1/2" aluminum rod was threaded to the other end of the bolt with the rod through the lathe headstock. This way I could apply axial force to the inner race while rotating the bearing.



The upshot was I could displace a 627 inner race by over .004" while a 167 couldn't be moved by a full thousandth (.001"). I'd say there is no doubt these smaller bearings are considerably more precise and as such less inclined to tolerate installation abuse or misalignment during use.

So while it may be "common knowledge" that micro bearings can't hold up to quad use I'd put that right where most opinions of that sort live, in the land of bigfoot.

.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 02:45 PM   #59
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The current bearings I'm using have been in there for almost 2 years, but they don't feel like they used to. The play from the inner to outer race has increased. I've cleaned them no less than 6 times.

Now compounding that issue is my arius axles, since the inner bearing sits on 7.94mm and the outer bearing sits on 7.2 where the threaded end has a large dip in the axle OD.

I also skate alot harder than other people. So in 2 years I don't expect to be using the same ones.

The bont 167 bearings I have were used by a friend and had a good bit of wear to them after 8 months of use, something I never saw when we cleaned his 608 bones reds before.

Essentially its easy to get a spacer setup done even with a spacer that is .001 bigger or even up to .004. Even loctite them in without issue, but the damn bearings need to be good. The current bearings I'm using habe wider inner races than outer races, so even with a proper press to push the outer and inner races in evenly, it's not going to make contact with the outer race, so assembly is an issue as nothing is going to line up right.

I did this before with rbts and qube 8 balls, using a spacer that was .300 wide in a .285 bearing seat, then i find out the damn press had bevel so big on the thing the outer races were never contacted during assembly, which offset the raceways..
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Old April 6th, 2018, 06:15 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Of course they still work. A spacer is never required, well unless you need it to put torque on the nuts because they have no self locking ability

But there are effects of having them properly set up. Wether a person skates at the conditions they are needed to see the advantages is what will make them viable to a skater or not.

Also gear selection makes a difference too. Some combos will have a drastic difference between having the nuts backed off a 1/4 turn vs cranking the nuts down to engage the spacers.

Some setups won't see quite as much difference. The looser the fit of the wheel assembly between the axle and bearings inner races, the more influential a locked down setup will be to the skate.

What makes matters worse is not all bearings are the same. I have some perfectly matched spacers in my assassins. Well the other day I measured the hubs to compare them to the spacers...

I got 11.93 on my spacers.

I got 12.05 mms on the actual bearing seat width... WTF ?! Lol

Normally this would DEFINITELY cause a binding issue. However the bearings are to blame. The inner race is wider than the outer race. So it requires a spacer that is less wide than the actual bearing seat widths of the wheels. Ah, another reason why ABEC ratings are iimportant... bBut, had they been 5mm wide in both inner and outer races from the get go, I wouldn't have been able to make the spacers like I did. Since they are made from 1 608 and 1 688 inner race. Which was about 11.99 wide. Then I took the 608 inner races and hand lapped them down for each wheel. I never measured the seat widths until yesterday. Since the combo of those inner races and bearings were too wide in the first place, and my micrometers battery was dead and I did not have a spare at the time... Lol I just kept test fitting till it was right.

I cranked down my spacers the other night at Sat session, had a blast with the extra grip/speed/cornering.

YES! This is the point I have been trying to make. I don't even see a debate here, it just silly. It's like believing the earth is flat or just 6000 years old.

Obviously for spacers to work correctly all variables must line up, the shaft length, the wheels, the bearings, maybe the even the lack of a hard hub too.

I tried using other bearings with my Roll-Line skates, wheels and spacers, big fail, same result when using non-Roll_Line wheels.

The point is you can not buy generic spacers and expect them to work with different wheels, bearings (sometimes even the shaft lengths can be too short). The whole debate becomes an academic argument. There are no generic spacers (that will fit correctly). Period.

So the only question left is do spacers help on Roll-line setups, we already know they fit and are designed to work together. To be honest I don't know.
But they are currently the only skates in the world that consistently make them fit as intended.

Roll-Line setups don't turn on the shafts. No marks on the shafts, zero, nothing. This in itself is a VERY big deal. Just like a car or a bike you don't want the bearings turning on the shafts. Maybe "high end" bearings are pointless, but they are really pointless if they are turning on the shafts.
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