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Beginning Skaters Forum This is the place for beginning skaters to ask questions and share their stories. We would love to hear about your experiences learning to skate. No question is too dumb!

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Old April 27th, 2008, 07:20 AM   #41
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I like your idea of a protruding washer projecting out from the bearing side of the axle nut. So even if the thread was a little short, the projecting out portion of the nut could still reach the bearing. These nuts could be made with the projecting amount in incermentally longer amounts. Then a single axle on the longer side could still handle a wide range of wheel/bearing assemblies, with the "spacer nuts" filling the gap at the end of the axle. Brilliant! - and no more extra pieces to handle either!! Now who is going to make them for us?
Exactly
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Old April 27th, 2008, 12:38 PM   #42
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I like your idea of a protruding washer projecting out from the bearing side of the axle nut. So even if the thread was a little short, the projecting out portion of the nut could still reach the bearing. These nuts could be made with the projecting amount in incermentally longer amounts. Then a single axle on the longer side could still handle a wide range of wheel/bearing assemblies, with the "spacer nuts" filling the gap at the end of the axle. Brilliant! - and no more extra pieces to handle either!! Now who is going to make them for us?
Just put another spacer between the nut and the outside of the bearing, maybe? Not as cool as a special nut, though...
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Old April 27th, 2008, 05:50 PM   #43
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Default Two nuts for each wheel

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Just put another spacer between the nut and the outside of the bearing, maybe? Not as cool as a special nut, though...
No, Bill in Houston, not so cool. But here is something cool that this thread has me thinking can be done:

Skateguy, now you got me going with your special nut idea. BARACUDA also posted a PIC in a different thread of an adjustable spacer for between the bearings.

I am thinking, why not TWO special spacer nuts INSIDE the wheel!
You would have to have a threaded-all-the-way axle and then assemble the bearings on the axle though (DOC's bearing press won't like this). The spacer nuts would be 7mm thread ID and have an EXACT 8.00mm OD x 5mm wide shoulder, that the 8mm bearing hole would fit perfectly with.

So, first, the inside bearing goes on and and then the 1st spacer nut locks it up against the truck and captures the inner bearing. Now the wheel goes over the inner bearing. Now the second spacer nut goes down into the wheel just deep enough so so that when the second bearing comes in on top of it, it centers and stops it from pinching the bearings against the shoulder in the hub. With the second spacer nut threaded, you can exactly position it where it needs to be for your wheel's dimensions.

Finally , your idea special nut goes on the outside, and we have both bearings perfectly centered on the axle and located within the hub along the axle. But, now, this is where it gets trickey.

The outer spacer nut (that carries the outer bearing from inside the wheel) needs to be "fine tuneable" AFTER the outer bearing gets pressed in on top of it, without having to rip the whole wheel off to get at it.

This is where your protruding-washer-nut shines! Since the spacer nut for the outer bearing must PROTRUDE slightly thru the outer bearing, just enough to grip it for fine tuning AFTER the wheel has surrounded it. Now, with your nut idea, the nut's protruding cylinder face can have a bore to clear the 8mm portion of the spacer nut that sticks out past the bearing. So as it tightens, it passes by this protrution and still reaches the bearing's inner race to grip it. Can we get a patent?

This really does solve ALL the problems - exact 8.00mm bearing to 8.00mm spacer shoulder diameter match, and fully precision axial location of the bearings relative to the wheel. It will mean a weaker axle though, with 7mm threading for the full length.

Does this make sense, or am I missing something?
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Old April 30th, 2008, 04:00 AM   #44
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No, Bill in Houston, not so cool. But here is something cool that this thread has me thinking can be done:

Skateguy, now you got me going with your special nut idea. BARACUDA also posted a PIC in a different thread of an adjustable spacer for between the bearings.

I am thinking, why not TWO special spacer nuts INSIDE the wheel!
You would have to assemble the bearings on the axle though (DOC's bearing press won't like this). The spacer nuts would be 7mm thread ID and have an EXACT 8.00mm OD x 5mm wide shoulder, that the 8mm bearing hole would fit perfectly with.

So, first, the inside bearing goes on and and then the 1st spacer nut locks it up against the truck and captures the inner bearing. Now the wheel goes over the inner bearing. Now the second spacer nut goes down into the wheel just deep enough so so that when the second bearing comes in on top of it, it centers and stops it from pinching the bearings against the shoulder in the hub. With the second spacer nut threaded, you can exactly position it where it needs to be for your wheel's dimensions.

Finally , your idea special nut goes on the outside, and we have both bearings perfectly centered and located along the axle. But this is where it gets trickey.

The outer spacer nut (that carries the outer bearing from inside the wheel) needs to be "fine tuneable" AFTER the outer bearing gets pressed in on top of it, without having to rip the whole wheel off to get at it.

This is where your nut shines! Since the spacer nut for the outer bearing must PROTRUDE slightly thru the outer bearing, just enough to grip it for fine tuning AFTER the wheel has surrounded it. Now, with your nut idea, the nut's protruding cylinder face has a bore to clear the 8mm portion of the spacer nut that sticks out past the bearing. So as it tightens, it passes by this protrution and still reaches the bearing race to grip it. Can we get a patent?

This really does solve ALL the problems - exact 8.00mm bearing to 8.00mm spacer shoulder diameter match, and fully precision axial location of the bearings relative to the wheel. It will mean a weaker axle though, with 7mm threading for the full length.

Does this make sense, or am I missing something?
-Armadillo
Woooh--Man, I need that one on paper. My old mind can't quite follow all of that one,---but it does seem intriguing. I will have to read over your notes, when my eyes are fresh, and I've had my morning coffee. But I think you may be on to something. ---Ok, read thru again, and I can find no flaw in your proposal. Machining the parts would be the hard part. You are talking about an all thread axle, correct?---one problem, locking the inner spacer in place once it is set in position. And no lock tight please.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 04:58 AM   #45
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Default All threaded axle for sure

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Woooh--Man, I need that one on paper. My old mind can't quite follow all of that one,---but it does seem intriguing. I will have to read over your notes, when my eyes are fresh, and I've had my morning coffee. But I think you may be on to something. ---Ok, read thru again, and I can find no flaw in your proposal. Machining the parts would be the hard part. You are talking about an all thread axle, correct?---one problem, locking the inner spacer in place once it is set in position. And no lock tight please.
Yes, the axle would have to be threaded all the way to within 1mm of the truck end.
The spacer nuts would have to be strong steel too, since the pressure on them from your special nut would tend to crush them, having only a .5mm wall thickness remaining between where the tips of the inside 7mm thread hole cut deepest outward toward the 8.00 mm OD of the spacer nuts.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 06:09 AM   #46
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Exclamation Spacers etc.

I. E. Trying to fix something that Ain't broke.

Only cheap plates have full threaded axles.

7MM axles are net fit to quality 7MM ID bearings,Bones Ceramics.

You don't want "no" spacers in quads". You are not riding a motor cycle.

If your and engineer I am sure you have used a STOBOSCOPE. It stops motion while object is in motion so you can see what is going on. It is really pretty simple.

Rink Roller Skating.

Proper wheel bearing adjustment is side play between .005 to .020. At the axle. Now I know that sounds NUTS for bearings and axles in the real world,but its roller skating. Nearly all wheel bearings for roller skates are very loose compared to commerical bearings,thats why there $2.00 per bearing etc.

You actually want the bearings to float, and move around,again nuts in engineer think.

WHY> first off, take the balls out of one of your bearings and look at the radius of the races vs's the diameter of the ball, NOT even nearly close.Only bearing I have tested that is Bones Ceramic Laybrinths $185. for 16.

With out spacers and wheels ajusted with free play, what is going on while you are skating, your putting weight on your foot the balls go right to the center of the radius.That is where they find there own centerline.

Biggest hazard to no spacers is tightnend down to NO freeplay ,then the balls are forced to ride up on the side of the races,the ones that in "rollerskate designed cheap bearings" have no ball to race precision match. Think motor cycle wheel. Spacer here is net to space between races and must be torqued to lock. No float.

Of course motorcycles are going more than rink speeds and kinda important in that regium.

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Old April 30th, 2008, 11:23 AM   #47
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WHY> first off, take the balls out of one of your bearings and look at the radius of the races vs's the diameter of the ball, NOT even nearly close.Only bearing I have tested that is Bones Ceramic Laybrinths $185. for 16.
That is the way they are intended to be. If the radius of the race and the ball match exactly, you end up with a very inefficient bearing.

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Old April 30th, 2008, 03:40 PM   #48
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Default Absolutely correct: if perfecct it would be point contact

inlina,
You are right.
If the bearing ball/race materials were infinitely hard (non compressable) AND PERFECTLY shaped, they would only touch at a single point. In the real world everything is mushy to some degree. Ceramic has minimum mushiness. Hardened bearing steel - slightly more. The area of contact needs to be tiny for smooth free rolling performance. Grease expands the point of contact, oil not so much.
The lack of a spacer to lock bearings in proper orientation exposes them to more ways of being stressed out of alignment - tilting on axles, etc.
This allows side and diagonal forces to move balls away from the centerline of the races. As they are displaced off centerline of races, more friction develops than necessary.
The amount of free play of a bearing is established and optimized by design at the factory. This is called the ABEC#. The tightening of a nut should not compromise the ABEC# internal clearances of the bearing. Without spacers, this absolutely DOES HAPPEN, and kills the potential performance of premium bearings. -Armadillo
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Old May 1st, 2008, 05:44 AM   #49
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Until I started working with Inline skates, and their axles, I just assumed skate bearings would have some slop, and lived with it. I adjusted as much as I could out by "feel" with out binding them, and called it good. but Inlines have little or no slop, and little or no binding. I want that type of precision for Quads also. we need a 8mm axle, not a 5/16 axle. simple as that.---So, does anybody after all these years, actually make an 8mm axle, to match up with our 8mm Bearings???
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Old May 4th, 2008, 04:23 PM   #50
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Thumbs up Some bearing and axle info?

First off,do your best to find a quality plate that has a 7MM axle,and then obtain a made for ROLLER SKATING wheel bearing. Bones Ceramic prefered.

Make sure the axle is not worn excessive or bent,take a new bearing and slide it on the axle. You will see it is a NET fit. Requires two fingers to push on when it is not inside a wheel. When it is against the truck,wigggle it,you will see the wobble is less than .001 at the race. These are the desired tolarances for roller skate bearings. But they are not cheap. Quality axles and quality made for skating bearings,not vaccum cleaners etc.

A quality 7MM bearing on a precison 7MM axle is always faster in the same conditions,wheels,weight,skater ability than a 8MM bearing. Even the best Bones etc.

How come: a 7MM bearing has a smaller inner race od for the ball than a 8mm. A 8mm inner race is larger on the od because of the larger 8mm axle od. So a 7mm has larger diameter ball. More speed,with less rpm and more contact area for the ball to spread out the weight over the area.

Why bearings need some free float: Again this ain't inlines or motorcycles. First not all wheels have bearing mounts OD in line from one side to the other. There was a huge batch of Seconds sold cheap that looked good,but due to some urethane voids they would still work,but the "final clean up." They deleated the last machine process to verfiy the side to side truness. So these wheels always (Sure Grip Power Plus) rolled slow and bearings tightned up on the axles as you rolled. To much angle from one bearing location to the other side. And bearing had to be pressed into the aluminum hubs due to the to small od. Quick way to see you had bought seconds. They could be fixed on a lathe.

Now when you deal with a art wheel that skaters follow lines and do that stuff. Well there wheels NEED a spacer in between the races and everthing tight. They use much narrower wheels and No wobble is acceptable for the art stuff. As far as I know? They do not go near the speed as quads and do not put the pressures with the grip of the 62 X 40 quads. And wheel is all under there boot. Not out on the end of the axles. Skate more like a tinker bell look. Probley a little lite in the pointed toe shoes?

And if you dont agree? Plese help me out here,I am always egar to learn something new. Enclosed a picture. I have tested just about them all,use 3 different testors and a hand held GPS,that reads the total distance traveled,speed. Keep the records,for each,always trying to keep the Derby Girls on the best stuff that we know if works. If you have the data,share it,please,as I do always for the betterment of skating.

Okie in Muskoge

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Old May 4th, 2008, 07:24 PM   #51
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Okie, nice work on your study. ---Although my main concern is the fact that Most of the Skaters I know, now use 5/16" axles, and 8mm. Bearings, which is the issue I'm trying to fined the most inexpensive fix for. I still feel like the simple solution is an 8mm Axle. rather than the standard 5/16".
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Old May 4th, 2008, 08:55 PM   #52
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5/16" axles, and 8mm. Bearings,
Are you serious? I did not pick that up along the way. Wow. Yeah a 5/16 threaded section is pretty different in size from an 8 mm i.d. bearing...
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Old May 5th, 2008, 01:56 AM   #53
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Default Only .0025" drop from 8mm to 5/16"

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Are you serious? I did not pick that up along the way. Wow. Yeah a 5/16 threaded section is pretty different in size from an 8 mm i.d. bearing...
It is not a huge difference, but it makes the shaft-to-bearing gap more than three times bigger than it should be. This gap increase can allow a lot more tilt action shifting of the inner race relative to the outer race under stress.

The whole idea of the dual side-by-side bearing pair is to minimize the tilting action from the various wheel forces causing a bearing's outer race to move sideways relative to the inner race. By spreading the wheel loads out across the distance between the two bearings, most of the forces are kept in a radial drection - up and down toward the center of the bearings. But this assumes the inner races remain in a fixed position aligned with the axle. Too much gap and the forces on the inner race can start being applied unevenly and off center, especially when no spacer locks the inner race in fixed locations.
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Old May 5th, 2008, 02:32 AM   #54
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Which is why most Skateboard Wheels, share the same bearing spacing as does most Inlines, witch is.400. This added width allows more stability on the axle. Where as most Quad Wheel bearing spacings is about .315, or 8mm .A standard 5/16 Quad axles diameter is .312 on the shaft, and about .305 on the threads. 8mm bearings have an ID of .315. So if the bearing rests on just the threaded surface, there is already .010 slop, before you even get started trying to adjust things. Which is why we need an actual 8mm axle. and a Shouldered nut, so none of the bearing rest on the threaded surface, as has been pointed out earlier in the discussion. ---wow, now my head hurts.
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Old May 5th, 2008, 02:39 AM   #55
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does anyone remember the "single Bering" wheel that came out a few years ago?? Those guys were selling the idea that, "a single bearing would have less "side load. and be lighter. " Their premise was completely backward. and they soon fell by the way side. I tried to explain to 'em, ---but they knew it all, and would not listen. To bad.
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Old May 18th, 2008, 01:27 AM   #56
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Default The spacer nuts locked in place by pressure against truck/nut

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Woooh--Man, I need that one on paper. My old mind can't quite follow all of that one,---but it does seem intriguing. I will have to read over your notes, when my eyes are fresh, and I've had my morning coffee. But I think you may be on to something. ---Ok, read thru again, and I can find no flaw in your proposal. Machining the parts would be the hard part. You are talking about an all thread axle, correct?---one problem, locking the inner spacer in place once it is set in position. And no lock tight please.
No Locktite would be needed. If inner spacer nut is TIGHT in its grip on inner bearing race against truck, no normal bearing friction will turn it. Same thing goes for the outer spacer nut being gripped TIGHT by the axle nut.
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Old May 18th, 2008, 08:32 AM   #57
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No Locktite would be needed. If inner spacer nut is TIGHT in its grip on inner bearing race against truck, no normal bearing friction will turn it. Same thing goes for the outer spacer nut being gripped TIGHT by the axle nut.
Okey dokey then---now keeping a nut "tight" with out some type of locking devise. has always caused me problems. A lock washer, or Aircraft lock nut--or something seems to be needed to hold any nut in place. Or two nuts locked together seems to work. But just torquing down a nut to a surface---seems to be unsuccessful in maintaining a locked configuration.--or something like that--Hahahhahah
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Old May 18th, 2008, 06:06 PM   #58
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Default Keeping nuts tight without a locking item?

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Okey dokey then---now keeping a nut "tight" with out some type of locking devise. has always caused me problems. A lock washer, or Aircraft lock nut--or something seems to be needed to hold any nut in place. Or two nuts locked together seems to work. But just torquing down a nut to a surface---seems to be unsuccessful in maintaining a locked configuration.--or something like that--Hahahhahah
Well, the no spacers guys just rely on the nylock type of nut to hold it in the proper adjustment position. So, the best simple solution would be to have back-to-back nylock spacer nuts inside the wheel with the nylon sides toward the center of the wheel, and the precision bearing engagement surfaces toward the outside. Not sure if the width of the shoulder zone inside the wheel is large enough to hold two nylocks back-to-back though. I'm ordering an assortment of 7mm nylolock nuts this week to play around with this idea. At least I already have a "cheap, threaded-all-the-way" 7mm axle to use for testing. Ha Ha Ha!
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