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Old February 4th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #21
cass38a
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Originally Posted by bolivia View Post
Hopefully along with development, you'll give consideration to protection of your efforts, ie patents, etc. Stealing/borrowing/copying of ideas and marketing them as their own are very common in the manufacturing world. Maybe this is enough of a niche market where the big boys won't bother if you're successful - but you never know.
And he needs to hope that Sure Grip dosen't get upset that he is actually copying their efforts if he intends to market these.......................I know that if I had only 12 months ago released a new truck design I would not be real pleased that somebody was making CF copys.

Good project you got going anyway, those invader plates are pretty heavy and I believe they are the lightest plate (with toe stop) that Suregrip has in current production to accept the DA45 truck.
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Old February 4th, 2011, 08:36 PM   #22
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WANT WANT WANT.

I love that you copied the Invader, that way the toe stops are actually usable. Great work!
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Old February 4th, 2011, 11:00 PM   #23
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Default Not a copy

I'm glad to hear such enthusiastic feedback! While I have been known to take molds of fiberglass helicopter canopies (to make carbon fiber ones) I didn't take a mold of anything here! The first picture will show that I had drawn these up in a CAD program, so everything but the geometry is my own work. I measured the geometry from the Invader plate simply so that I could use the DA-45 trucks. I am hoping sure grip will not mind, as they stand to sell me a lot of their truck sets if all goes well with this, but yes, that is something I will have to work out.

It was mentioned that I might want a thicker king pin, however I don't think that I could do that with the stock truck setup. As I want to use the stock trucks and cushions, and as I haven't had any issues with the 3/8" kingpin myself, I think I'll stick with it. If someone requests it it would be fairly trivial to put whatever sized hole one would like in there.

Also mentioned was the plate width, and I agree fully! They are intended to be wider, though Mikey couldn't see the trim lines from the mold, so he had to guess as to where they were. This is the reason the first prototypes had slots instead of holes. There is also supposed to be a lip around the entire part, which can be seen in the mold. The new molds will be machined with a bigger trimline.

As far as the split nose, I'm going to play with it, but as you can see it was quite easily left out of this prototype. I plan to let one of the gorillas I know try to break it via overtightening, but if it isn't fairly bulletproof a jamnut can be used. I think a high end plate should have that option, so I hope I can pull it off, but the more I learn the more it seems like it might not be that big of a deal.

Thanks again everyone! Reading your replies makes me even more excited to get this right!
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Old February 5th, 2011, 01:23 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kick Me View Post
For anyone curious about the strength, here's my "jump test."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM8PAYK6Mmg
I was slamming them so hard my feet hurt! I ended up stripping the front kingpin threads, but I plan to use a machined metal insert there instead of just tapping the composites. Doc Sk8 recommended this and he couldn't be more right! We just did it this way for the prototype. The rear ones held up fine and I suspect the front only gave out because the mold was drilled slightly off, and the kingpin holes had to be "fixed" which means re threaded at a different angle. Oh well, live and learn. I won't be selling any of these unless they are bulletproof!
hey there kick me, I think this is awesome what your doing. I plan on using my DA45 Mags again someday when i get a another decent boot, these matched up with a bont CQ ?? OMG. could you imagine!?!? sub 900gram set ups could be possible, huh?. WOW !!

I kinda thought there was a huge hole in the DA45 market when it came to bantom weight base plates but with carbon.. it's feather weight. a loaded plate weighing less than 200 grams is possible if one buys those upgraded Tit. trucks that nathan sells. you could even go lighter if one chose to use S/A mag trucks..
From the way you worked those protos during those donkey kick jumps i could only imagine the final product would be good to go for a skater that weighs in @220 like me.. I'll make sure theres money in the old seds account for these when there ready to buy..

theirs a few on here that tells others to get boens for a ultra light weight plate, like their still available to the masses. LOL No need for that anymore IMO when these get put on the market, and i for one hope they get produced.....

BTW. I may have overlooked it if it's already posted, but what king pin threads you plan on using? 24 tpi ? metric? i hope you ditch the British 20 threads.

Last edited by Christopher-T; February 5th, 2011 at 01:28 AM. Reason: forgot something.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 02:20 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Christopher-T View Post
hey there kick me, I think this is awesome what your doing. I plan on using my DA45 Mags again someday when i get a another decent boot, these matched up with a bont CQ ?? OMG. could you imagine!?!? sub 900gram set ups could be possible, huh?. WOW !!

I kinda thought there was a huge hole in the DA45 market when it came to bantom weight base plates but with carbon.. it's feather weight. a loaded plate weighing less than 200 grams is possible if one buys those upgraded Tit. trucks that nathan sells. you could even go lighter if one chose to use S/A mag trucks..
From the way you worked those protos during those donkey kick jumps i could only imagine the final product would be good to go for a skater that weighs in @220 like me.. I'll make sure theres money in the old seds account for these when there ready to buy..

theirs a few on here that tells others to get boens for a ultra light weight plate, like their still available to the masses. LOL No need for that anymore IMO when these get put on the market, and i for one hope they get produced.....

BTW. I may have overlooked it if it's already posted, but what king pin threads you plan on using? 24 tpi ? metric? i hope you ditch the British 20 threads.
Yeah, I plan to go 24tpi, though they could easily be threaded to whatever you like. The prototypes were 3/8-20 because I wanted to use the hardware I had, and I was thinking the course thread might grab the composite better. Turns out I need an insert anyhow. I might change pitch if I source a titanium kingpin or stud to use as one in a particular thread, luckily 3/8-20 is NOT going to happen haha!

I'm glad you are confident in the durability, I weigh in at 210 myself and have broken a jump bar on XK-4 doublers, so I can dish out the punishment just fine! They'll likely be alright for you as well.

As far as the titanium truck kits, that's going to be the way to go at first if you desire the lightest setup, but I do plan on working on some carbon fiber trucks in the future, perhaps with a hollow axle (as I'm currently designing some clip axles, but I only report when I have something to report!). Anyhow, that SHOULD be lighter, but I haven't even begun the prototypes for that project yet

I do plan on mating these to some Bont Derby Patriot Pro boots, while not the lightest, I am known for tearing up boots! The bare carbon fiber should look good mounted to that boot too. The lighter bont boots... woah! I know of a few tiny female derby skaters that would kill for a setup like that!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Last edited by Kick Me; February 5th, 2011 at 02:25 AM. Reason: mis spoke
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Old February 6th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #26
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Default First practice

I managed to fix the threads with a couple of extra jamnuts, which added some weight, but got them going. I figured I could at least test the strength! I noticed a little bit of flex in the kingpins, which started to get worse as I did hockey slides. Yep, cracked one of the plates in between the front kingpin and the ball.

The good news, is that I can make that section twice as strong on the next batch, and only add a few grams of weight. Also, since the "lip" around the outside inadvertently got cut off they are even more prone to flex there, as there is nothing to stop the walls from flexing inward under pressure from the boot.

What this all means is that I've learned something! And I'm quite happy to have broken them because I can learn, and perfect this design. I've abused these harder than any plates I've ever owned, and I personally think they stood up pretty well. I won't be happy until I have a 300lb guy mash on them though haha! Rest assured they will be flex free and bulletproof by the time I'm done. Even if I doubled the weight they'd still be ridiculously lightweight, so I'm not at all concerned! This might be my last performance update for awhile since I've got to get some parts in before I can lay up another set, and cut a deeper trim line in the mold to make sure the next ones are the right shape.

All the positive feedback really helps me keep going, and I feel more and more like I'm not just doing this for myself, but for derby, and quad skating in general. Thank you everyone!
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Old February 6th, 2011, 03:51 AM   #27
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Good on ya mate, stick with it, I look forward to the finished product.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 04:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Kick Me View Post
I managed to fix the threads with a couple of extra jamnuts, which added some weight, but got them going. I figured I could at least test the strength! I noticed a little bit of flex in the kingpins, which started to get worse as I did hockey slides. Yep, cracked one of the plates in between the front kingpin and the ball.

The good news, is that I can make that section twice as strong on the next batch, and only add a few grams of weight. Also, since the "lip" around the outside inadvertently got cut off they are even more prone to flex there, as there is nothing to stop the walls from flexing inward under pressure from the boot.

What this all means is that I've learned something! And I'm quite happy to have broken them because I can learn, and perfect this design. I've abused these harder than any plates I've ever owned, and I personally think they stood up pretty well. I won't be happy until I have a 300lb guy mash on them though haha! Rest assured they will be flex free and bulletproof by the time I'm done. Even if I doubled the weight they'd still be ridiculously lightweight, so I'm not at all concerned! This might be my last performance update for awhile since I've got to get some parts in before I can lay up another set, and cut a deeper trim line in the mold to make sure the next ones are the right shape.

All the positive feedback really helps me keep going, and I feel more and more like I'm not just doing this for myself, but for derby, and quad skating in general. Thank you everyone!
As far as your kingpin failure goes what you need to understand is that the design goal is not so much to make the threads stronger, as it is to get a BIG jam nut up against the plate and have it be delivering as much of the truck force as possible into the bottom of the plate instead of into the threads. The ideal solution would be to machine an 11/16" or 3/4" (across the flats) HEX titanium bar into a double ended stud with an ~1/4" of hex left in the middle. Each end would be threaded 3/8-24, not as much on TOP where a short threaded insert would be embedded into the carbon to pull the kingpin up tight against the plate, and just enough on bottom to handle the action nut's travel. More than 50% of the kingpin hole's carbon fiber could just be a smooth bore to fit snug around the smooth OD of the upper end of the titanium "hex stud" kingpin.
Once such a kingpin was tightened in place, the pre-compression of the carbon would have most of the dynamic loading of the kingpin being transferred onto the plate bottom and NOT onto the threaded insert.

In decent quantity, such a custom kingpin would be ~$12-15 each and this is for 150KSI grade 5+ titanium material too.

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Old February 7th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #29
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Default hmmm

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There is a very simple way to do this and real cheap to.

Since you have a plate that you are trying to duplicate!!!!!!

You can purchase high strength "ULtracal Plaster". It does not shrink and withstands heat and pressure.

Use your existing skate plate: Put bolts or what ever you desire to copy the mount holes.

Wax ever thing with mold release. Mix the desired amount of Ultracal with water as instructions require. It is like high grade plaster of Paris etc to work with.

Cover the skate plate with about 1/2 inch thick plaster. It drys in about 1hour. pop out the skate plate from the plaster mold. You know have your exact skate plate FEMALE mold.

Put in a toaster oven for 1 hour at about 200degees to dry out. Wax this mold with release.

Add the bushings and threaded guide bolts into the plaster ultracal mold.

Do you skate plate layup in the ultracal plaster skate plate mold. Do what ever process to the layup and mold as required by the brand of Carbon you are using. Cure time etc.

So simple its silly. If you have the part you want to make a copy of. Most of the time we need CATIA to make a mold from digital images. But if you got the part,nothing to it. Male to female to part.
okie
Why doesnt everyone.. that has a plate...*different*.. make a MOLD.. of THEIR plate.. *size*.. and see just how many molds can be created... I like the idea.. of a Size 150 and 180 Carbon Navigator........

We could have entire plate type/size libraries available for each type of plate.. and the size available..

Everyone could sign up for a size and plate that they have.. and see how complete we can make it. ???
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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #30
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Default These are awesome!

I've been thinking about buying a pair of XK-4 DA45's, but I'd rather have these! I'm sold on the lightness of them, and once you've worked out the kinks I think these'll be kickass plates!

I hope you make some brass, (or better yet steel), pivot pin cups available. I don't even really do jumps, but I'm pretty convinced the Delrin parts are going to get brittle and crack with age, even without the stress of skating.

I second the concerns of other posters regarding the split nose for locking the toestop, but I really hope you can make it work. Although jam nuts are a perfectly viable solution, I always think they look rather cheesy on toe stops. I also keep my stops pretty far off the floor, and a jam nut might mean having to sand the stops down.

I'm not sure it would work, but could you put a Helicoil in for the toe stop threads, (maybe with some epoxy or cyanoacrylate), then slit the helicoil? (I've been wondering about this as a solution for Roll-Line plates - I don't love the idea of chasing the metric threads with an SAE tap, in spite of what Doc says...)

You might want to put some bosses around the plate mounting holes, to provide more 'meat' for the mounting hardware and to distribute the stresses more optimally.

I really hope you get these to market, and soon! Best of luck!
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Old February 20th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #31
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I hope you make some brass, (or better yet steel), pivot pin cups available. I don't even really do jumps, but I'm pretty convinced the Delrin parts are going to get brittle and crack with age, even without the stress of skating.

Pretty sure?? How long do you want them to last?? I have 15 year old Boens and Snyders (World Dominatorswith Delrin cups.. Roll Lines 10 years old.. No problems here...


Worried about them failing?? So what, they are dirt cheap.. Steel on steel pivots wear the pins.. Thats right, the Sure Grip Classic / Snyder system uses the pivot pin as the wear point. Cost 2-3x as much as a Delrin pivot cup. Brass or oilite?? Not in my sk8s if I have a choice... They are the easiest ones to pound out. I have thrown Pro Line plates away because the owners sk8ed right through the pivots.. I won't even mention Reactors or Hard Candys..


I have YET to see a blown Delrin or nylon pivot cup in 12 years of doing this..

(I've been wondering about this as a solution for Roll-Line plates - I don't love the idea of chasing the metric threads with an SAE tap, in spite of what Doc says...)

Dislike all ya want... It has been working successfully on dozens of Roll Lines since 2005. Best practice?? No!! Gets the job done?? Big time..
Some times the cost of doing the job perfectly is worth way more than the additional benefits of perfection....
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Old February 20th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #32
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Default Delrin cups and chasing threads

Hi Doc: As far as the Delrin cups go, I defer to your superior experience. It's good to know that Delrin is much better for this purpose than I imagined, and I won't give it a second thought in the future.

As for chasing the toe stop threads in Roll-Lines, I have no doubt that it works, and works reliably. I just have an irrational prejudice against it.

And I agree with you about the costs of perfection. I'm becoming less of a perfectionist as I get older, but old habits die hard, and some prejudices never go away.

I don't suppose you've ever experienced anything similar?
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Old February 20th, 2011, 08:10 PM   #33
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If you would like to pull Molds from it! NTS 10 Degree D/A with a 6 1/2" Wheelbase. I for one appreciate what you're doing, keep up the Good/Hard Work!

Derrick......
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Why doesnt everyone.. that has a plate...*different*.. make a MOLD.. of THEIR plate.. *size*.. and see just how many molds can be created... I like the idea.. of a Size 150 and 180 Carbon Navigator........

We could have entire plate type/size libraries available for each type of plate.. and the size available..

Everyone could sign up for a size and plate that they have.. and see how complete we can make it. ???
I got to thinking....................would it be possible to make a mold and a carbon fiber copy of any obsolete plate? Like, for example, an Ultimate? Maybe not a II or III, but a SST or a I, perhaps? I know people, like me, would buy them!
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Old February 20th, 2011, 09:29 PM   #34
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And I agree with you about the costs of perfection. I'm becoming less of a perfectionist as I get older, but old habits die hard, and some prejudices never go away.

I don't suppose you've ever experienced anything similar?

Why do ya think I chase the threads on the plates??

I spent 22 years in the USAF working on aircraft with essentially unlimited resources and manpower available..

After retiring in 1992 and starting to work in industry I learned about doing it quick and dirty, on the cheap..(at least in my mind...) For the next 15 years I learned that the best way was not always the most cost effective or even the right way for the situation...


I'm still not thrilled that the Italians won't tap the plates they import for standard treads, but hey, they know every thing...
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Old February 20th, 2011, 10:37 PM   #35
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Default Perfectionism

Quote:
...the Italians won't tap the plates they import for standard treads, but hey, they know everything...
Gee Doc, I thought YOU knew everything!

I'm just about to go skating now. Yippeeee!! (It's only 6:30 where I live....)
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Old February 21st, 2011, 05:33 AM   #36
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Wow, this is a sweet thread. I love boutique engineering.

I can't wait to see the second prototype.
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Old February 21st, 2011, 06:40 PM   #37
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Two words. Quality control. You have a future in this product. Someone on this site will start making offers for a set. Nice Job!
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Old February 25th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #38
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Default Round 2!

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Wow, this is a sweet thread. I love boutique engineering.

I can't wait to see the second prototype.
Second protototype... here you go!!! They are mounted and skated on them briefly last night! Below are the pics, they will be followed with more about what I've learned on this batch.






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Old February 25th, 2011, 03:05 PM   #39
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Default What I learned this time

So these plates are heavier, almost twice as heavy as they were. However they are still lighter than Powerdyne Thrusts! http://www.roller.riedellskates.com/...on%20Chart.pdf
My plates are about 165.1 mm wheelbase, at 104 grams, or 3.67 ounces each, with no hardware. The closest sized Thrust on that chart is a 168 mm wheelbase weighing in at 136.1 grams, or 4.8 ounces each with no hardware. This means the bare plates have them beat! The trucks may be a tad heavier, but I can work that aspect later, when I can make some CF trucks to compliment these

These are also MUCH stiffer, and I don't think I'll be breaking these EVER. I was able to skate on the corners of the wheels, up on the corner of the front wheel, and lean hard over to make some sharp turns, and to me they actually felt stiffer than the cast aluminum Invaders that they replaced! I was worried about one thing however, Doc Sk8 warned me that if I made the plates too short I'd get the wheels to rub the boots. I worried that even though with the bushings off I couldn't get that to happen, I thought maybe with my heavy self pressing down on them the skate would flex over and cause problems. I'm happy to report this was not the case! These suckers are RIGID. Derby practice will be tomorrow evening, so I'll have an even better report on their performance at that time, but so far so great!

We used aluminum inserts for the kingpins this time, and Mikey liked that method better, saying that it was easier to control. I like it better because it would take a gorilla to strip these threads, and I didn't have to use a jamnut on the back side. Plus I don't believe these inserts added much weight, so I am very pleased with this!

Also, the finish is obviously a lot better, as it didn't have to be covered over with paint to be presentable There is still a little bit of improvement to be made on the finish, but that will require aluminum molds. The urethane ones are only for prototyping anyhow.

Now the one unfortunate thing with this set, is that I was once again unable to test the thread locking feature on the toestop. The slots ended up being cut too far over to one side, and there wasn't enough "bite" on the other side to get sufficient clamping. I might drill all the way through and just put a nut on the other side, just to make sure the feature works, however I might not be able to cut the slot deep enough to get sufficient clamping out of it. I am considering removing the feature, though I think plates at this price level should include some sort of locking feature.

I really can't wait to skate 'em at a practice! And mount them to my Bont Derby Patriot Pros that are shipping TODAY!
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Old February 25th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #40
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The combination of compression and shear that will be experienced at the mounting points would cause me concern. As designed the question will be of when, rather then, if the failure will occur at a mounting hole.

I would also consider a round the edge running the outside of the plate, there is no reason to introduce a continuous sharp edge along the periphery.

Please don't take this to mean it does not look like good work so far, they are looking very good at this point.
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