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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:02 AM   #1
Armadillo
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Default How do you think your stroke gives you speed?

I have been thinking about how my skate stroke accelerates me forward and maintains my speed - especially at high speed.

I had initially thought that it was the rearward direction of the push, at an outward angle, that gave the forward acceleration. I recently have changed my view completely.

I would like to hear what other people think is the key aspect of their stroke that propels them forward.

After all the ideas are posted, I will present my revolutionary new idea, which will be very controversial. I promise you that if you grasp this new idea and optimize your stroke to match it, it will allow you to boost the power of your stroke dramatically.

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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:41 AM   #2
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Default Technique 101. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
I have been thinking about how my skate stroke accelerates me forward and maintains my speed - especially at high speed.

I had initially thought that it was the rearward direction of the push, at an outward angle, that gave the forward acceleration. I recently have changed my view completely.

I would like to hear what other people think is the key aspect of their stroke that propels them forward.

After all the ideas are posted, I will present my revolutionary new idea, which will be very controversial. I promise you that if you grasp this new idea and optimize your stroke to match it, it will allow you to boost the power of your stroke dramatically.

-Armadillo
Every aspect of your style effects your efficiency.
Arm swing, leg stride, when and how you land your lead foot, the angle you push your skate at, how you lift your skate off from the push, upper body angle, timing etc. It would involve several mega posts here to explain every aspect and how one effects the other etc etc.
You also seem to be forgetting plate position but lets not start that debate here in this thread you are asking technique. All I will say is plate position is essential to allow the execution of what is regarded as the best technique.
Study in liner speed skaters and the double push technique. Plenty of video of that around. That will also give you some ideas.
Colin can help you out with some links here for footage of the current World Out Door Quad Speed Skating Series been held in Australian.
There is one standout guy with fantastic technique whom can help you out. Colin is best to ask for more detail. As he can explain the video and which skaters to watch.
Not my technique though. I'm a bit of a scrapper unless I follow one of the guys and copy their steps.
There is nothing easy about it you need strength to execute it properly and have your skates set up right. So get ready for a new build. Warm up your glue gun and find some shorter plates. Otherwise you are wasting everyones time here.
Good luck with it.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 05:59 AM   #3
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Go fast, turn left.....

Everyone is a little different. It all has to flow together.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:26 AM   #4
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With the greatest respect Armadillo I saw in the training thread you were stoked to skate a 1/2 marathon in 1 hour.Sorry to burst your bubble but 20 years ago we were skating 1/2 marathons on quads in 35min.I switched to inlines then but have had quads back on the past few weeks and have already gotten down to 20min for 10k.
In fact I think inlining and ice skating has made my technique on quads even better than it was all those years ago.
Tell us all your new "secrets" by all means,but the proof is in the eating so I expect to see some decent times. If its real speed your after then you need to change some of your ideas on what makes a fast skate(no one ever won a high level race on the sort of gear your promoting on here) and perhaps take a good hard look at your technique,fitness etc
you mention "high speed" ..firstly what do you consider high speed?I consider it 37km/h and above on level ground.
I am quite happy to post a video of myself on quads if you are so we can compare whats really going on.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 07:32 AM   #5
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I doubt you will come up with anything "new" but cant wait for your reinvention of the wheel.

People have been racing quads for decades and the national and world champs from prior to 1991 knew what they were doing.

If you want to improve your speed and efficiency I would track down a old national or world champ and get them to show you how its done.

As Scott said there is one skater in particular in the following videos who has a stride which has to be seen to be believed (I have seen it up close as he goes past like you are standing still and his legs are not moving any faster than mine. When I first started skating he actually pushed me around for half a lap to help me keep up with the pack and the power coming from his push was awsome)

go to 1min51sec in this video to see how its done
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5mIrqAPB9E.

13secs and 5min50sec into this video will give some more examples.
At 7min 20 sec you will see Scott and Myself (white shirt) get an arse kicking in the A final of the 500 meter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjEefr5JSbM
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:15 AM   #6
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So far, four posts and nobody has answered the simple question I posed.
Lots of advice and opinions. We see an assessment of how slow I am (never claimed to be world class), compared to the serious down under speed skaters. Did I ask for videos? No, I did not. I only asked one simple thing. It amazes me what a big agenda everyone has toward me. My skate plates are too long - OK got it. Too much glue has clogged my thinking - right. Yet when I ask a simple question why is it so difficult to just answer the question I asked?

This thread is not about me, it is about you all out there. Perhaps the dude who kicks butt does something different with his stroke? Perhaps inlines MAKE you alter your quad stroke in some subtle positive ways?
I asked you guys to ASK YOURSELVES how your stroke works for you to propel you forward. What is the nature of your stroke push? Is it linear toward the rear? Is it an arc, and if so, where in the is the peak push applied? Where does the arc start and end? Can you accelerate from an arc stroke that starts at 90degrees to right & left and then curves forward? How could a forward moving arc stroke with your foot positioned ahead of you still accelerate you forward?

If you can't ask yourselves these questions and post what you think are the answers for the way you skate and how you analyze your own stroke style, then don't clog up the thread with irrelevant posts.

Sometimes we get so full of opinions that we lose our ability to authentically engage with a new question. Can we just stay focused on my simple question. I don't know if my answer will be any better than your answer, but we all might learn a few things along the way.

BTW, I only meant that my "revolutionary new idea" has been a revelation to me and is new to me. I'm sure may skaters already have their stroke optimized in this way, which I have only recently discovered.

BTW2, A front view or rear view video is much more useful for examining a stroke's dynamic motion. A top view would really be cool.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 08:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
I have been thinking about how my skate stroke accelerates me forward and maintains my speed - especially at high speed.


-Armadillo
pretty sure you are referring to your own "high speed' if my reading is correct.
If we are going to have a chat about how to go fast on skates then I think we do need to define fast first?
The advice of watching the aussie vids is good...
my father said to me once"copy the best then improve on it" whats your improvement on say a 25sec 300m t/t or 15 min 10km all of which has been achieved by athletes on quad skates before...If you really do have some new technique that can better these times then by all means I am open to discuss it.

Lets start then by your assessment of how the aussie guys in the videos could improve there speed?
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Old September 11th, 2010, 09:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwimaster View Post
pretty sure you are referring to your own "high speed' if my reading is correct.
If we are going to have a chat about how to go fast on skates then I think we do need to define fast first?
The advice of watching the aussie vids is good...
my father said to me once"copy the best then improve on it" whats your improvement on say a 25sec 300m t/t or 15 min 10km all of which has been achieved by athletes on quad skates before...If you really do have some new technique that can better these times then by all means I am open to discuss it.

Lets start then by your assessment of how the aussie guys in the videos could improve there speed?
First off, I can't tell much at all about the strokes in the VIDs because they are not good for analyzing strokes - too herky jerky, all side view, too much curve, too short, too much sprint focus.

I have no opinions on quad skate sprinting. It may even require a very different stroke style than distance speed (10K, 20K, 40K ...) which is the only kind of skating I do and am interested in doing.

You just don't seem to get yet it on this thread, It is not about how to go fast, it is about how you think YOUR PERSONAL STROKE drives you forward. How have you tuned your stroke, based on this thinking? How do you optimize your stroke? How do you analyze your stroke to keep it at optimum for you?

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Old September 11th, 2010, 09:35 AM   #9
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A good portion of my speed came from the forward stroking. You also get speed from lengthening your stride once you get past the start. The longer your stride the more efficiently you apply power. That is why the ice skaters use clap skates. It artificially lengthens their stride.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 09:43 AM   #10
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The reason Peter is so fast is because he does do something different, he skates with proper form, have a look at the longer races and see how easy he is doing it..............I am not qualified to tell you how he does it but I copy him whenever I can get behind him and am getting better.

To give you an answer the power comes from the push to front and the side, not at all to the rear IMO. If you are pushing backwards you are wasting energy.

The position of your body and sidewards momentum of your body weight towards the direction of the push also has a lot to do with how efficent you can get your power down.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #11
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Default I would agree

with Cass38a

For me the power on the straights comes from concentrating on stepping out forward onto the heel and the push to the side. And also the power of crossing over out of the corners, which is once again a combo of forward step and side push

Peter is a master this. It is his style and technique I try to emulate.

This techniques is very very effective on road. On track depending on the size of it is similar. But then I notice that you guys in the US crossover the whole way on track due to your very wide straights.

But knowing you Armadillo, you are only interested in road skating.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #12
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-W-a7ZLpFs
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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:03 PM   #13
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You know you are just gonna antagonise the Armadillo!
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Old September 11th, 2010, 12:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
As Scott said there is one skater in particular in the following videos who has a stride which has to be seen to be believed (I have seen it up close as he goes past like you are standing still and his legs are not moving any faster than mine. When I first started skating he actually pushed me around for half a lap to help me keep up with the pack and the power coming from his push was awsome
Do you think he'd consider coming and pushing a little Derby girl round the track? I'm working on getting faster laps and that sounds like fun
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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:13 PM   #15
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I am fairly certain we are not witnessing anything other than simple physics at work and you are going to tell me nothing that Newton hasn't already described in great detail.

http://physics.about.com/od/classica...wsofmotion.htm

Your original simple question didn't have enough information to tell me even which way you are facing, curve or straight, stopped or at speed, accelerating or decelerating. If you are asking how your stroke works, I have no idea. You could still be scissor skating with the noobs for all I know. I think most of us question how your stroke works to start with.

I also switched from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke so I wouldn't have to mix the oil and gas together anymore.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #16
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I think the push, either on a streight or in a turn begins in front of the hips, to the side, and shuould finish in line with the hips (not behind them). One is able to produce the most power with knee extension, while the skates are under the hips. For all out speed, the leg/knee must be fully extended, with all wheels remaining in contact with the surface through the entire stroke/push.
If one pushes back, then one loses power by "falling" forward, off the skates.
This is just my opinion.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #17
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Ok, I am starting to see a pattern in the answers here from skaters who obviously know a thing or two about skating at some decent speed, and these answers are confirming what I have learned too. Yes, there is physics behind the way a good stroke gives you more speed, but I will be offering a whole new spin on the nature of this physics, and it will surprise almost everyone. I will wait a bit though to allow more time for other people to post their views of what gives them their optimum stroke push.

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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
I would like to hear what other people think is the key aspect of their stroke that propels them forward.
I have always figured that skates were sort of like sailboats, water skis, kites and the like. Most of the time you are trying to convert energy from a vector that isn't in line with the way you want to go into movement in the direction you want to head.

The key to success is to derive as much energy as possible without going the off course or bogging yourself down with excessive resistance.

I believe that your forward motion is derived from the lateral motion of your skates. Too little lateral push is inefficient and so is too much lateral push like when you are running in skates. The key is to optimize the energy transfer in each stroke. I could be very wrong but it seem seems like the "double push" in inline is primarily a means of lengthening the time the skate is at a desirable angle so you can continue efficient lateral movement within one stroke.

In my stroke I think the key is have good grip, push hard and get the skate up before it before it becomes a drag.

I agree that little can be determined about the form being used in the NSW videos. It would likely be informative to get someone with a camera to shoot from right behind a skater like Peter so we could see what his stroke actually looks like. A camera with optical image stabilization on a chase car would be the keys to this. Don't run over Peter or fall off the hood!
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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:26 PM   #19
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Enough BS... Cut to the chase and fill us in.. I, for one, am not getting excited over the "suspense" you think you are building about your next "revolution" is sk8ing.
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Old September 11th, 2010, 04:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I have always figured that skates were sort of like sailboats, water skis, kites and the like. Most of the time you are trying to convert energy from a vector that isn't in line with the way you want to go into movement in the direction you want to head.

The key to success is to derive as much energy as possible without going the off course or bogging yourself down with excessive resistance.

I believe that your forward motion is derived from the lateral motion of your skates. Too little lateral push is inefficient and so is too much lateral push like when you are running in skates. The key is to optimize the energy transfer in each stroke. I could be very wrong but it seem seems like the "double push" in inline is primarily a means of lengthening the time the skate is at a desirable angle so you can continue efficient lateral movement within one stroke.

In my stroke I think the key is have good grip, push hard and get the skate up before it before it becomes a drag.

I agree that little can be determined about the form being used in the NSW videos. It would likely be informative to get someone with a camera to shoot from right behind a skater like Peter so we could see what his stroke actually looks like. A camera with optical image stabilization on a chase car would be the keys to this. Don't run over Peter or fall off the hood!
All good points especially on the issue of how does a lateral force vector get converted into forward acceleration?

This reminds me of another stroke question: in which direction to you "steer your stroke" to gain the most push before your foot leaves the ground?

-Armadillo
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