Quad Racer and Nylon Plate

[rufusprime99]

Anyone out there do a nylon plate on a Bont, either fiberglass or carbon fibre?

Just the notion of getting metal plate performance out of a nylon plate has always tickled the heck out of me. Getting something to perform better that it ought to, pretty cool. I am thinking of a fiberglass Quad Racer, not sure if I want another white or maybe a black, a Red or Purple Rock plate running either Red or Purple gummy suspension. I am thinking on getting a size 8 rock which should give me a 177mm wheelbase as opposed to the 167mm I currently use.

Anyone have any input on comfort between fiberglass and carbon fiber Bont. I did meet on guy that raced carbon fiber, but preferred fiberglass Bont for training/just tooling around. Are the carbons uncomfortable?

Thx in advance for info.

[Mort]

The harder the sole gets the shiťťier the feedback. Reason being that the sole acts as a solid unit and doesnt deflect, so feeling where contact is happening or where you are getting slip, grip, vibrations etc becomes deadened.

Ever get a pair of gloves, and your feel through them was horrible until they broke in(essentially softened up and conformed to your hands) same is true for any quad.

I've skated a bont hybrid on a plastic plate off a lebeda G80 skate. A composite resistor plate. It does quite well. If you are looking for a good plastic plate to use on a bont, I would see if you can find a super cheap rock or probe plates and message old Doc about getting delvin pivot cups and some Avanti adjustable pivot trucks.


I got my buddy an arius plate, modified as well as mine, he had it on a Carrera boot I fixed for him(re-soled). After 3 or 4 sessions he was doing great. That same plate is now on a bont patriot, which is a carbon bont, his skill level went to absolute shyt. Traction modulation became a huge problem, and when he did manage to break it, it would slide out ridiculously fast and he'd flip the skates onto their sides.

I've had my arius plate on 3 different boots, and well broken in leather is the best all around. No questions.

Is it the most energy efficient? Nope. But I will gladly surrender a small bit of grip and power transfer for the ability to flawlessly modulate my grip threshold with the floor. After all, unless you are doing dedicated racing , that extra little edge in grip/power transfer is pretty much lost at sessions. The people with more dependable gear which they don't struggle with to do all the fine inputs will leave you in the dust on a crowded floor.

My suggestion is.
Boot: Quad racer leather

Plates: Probe/rock plate with upgraded trucks and pivot cups. Yellow barrels with flat washers and greased contact points.

Wheels: 95A Royal assassin wheels indoor, 62×38(narrow/full height) poisons outdoor.

177 sounds fine. Out of curiosity what is your total foot length? , just work with the suspension a bit and enjoy carving harder/deeper edges.

As for comfort, they do well, BUT... they are horribly unforgiving, so any imperfection with their shape compared to your feet will likely cause an issue. I have not heat molded my buddy's bonts, so I can't comment if it would indeed fix it perfectly.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by Mort

The harder the sole gets the shiťťier the feedback. Reason being that the sole acts as a solid unit and doesnt deflect, so feeling where contact is happening or where you are getting slip, grip, vibrations etc becomes deadened.

I don't seem to have that problem. I don't do power slides, but I do break axles loose by lifting. So, I have my own way to modulate.

Ever get a pair of gloves, and your feel through them was horrible until they broke in(essentially softened up and conformed to your hands) same is true for any quad.

I've skated a bont hybrid on a plastic plate off a lebeda G80 skate. A composite resistor plate. It does quite well. If you are looking for a good plastic plate to use on a bont, I would see if you can find a super cheap rock or probe plates and message old Doc about getting delvin pivot cups and some Avanti adjustable pivot trucks.

Yeah. I am thinking of a white bont QR with a red Rock plate. Delrin pivot and adjustable truck on a Rock? Sounds interesting.

I got my buddy an arius plate, modified as well as mine, he had it on a Carrera boot I fixed for him(re-soled). After 3 or 4 sessions he was doing great. That same plate is now on a bont patriot, which is a carbon bont, his skill level went to absolute shyt. Traction modulation became a huge problem, and when he did manage to break it, it would slide out ridiculously fast and he'd flip the skates onto their sides.

I've had my arius plate on 3 different boots, and well broken in leather is the best all around. No questions.

Is it the most energy efficient? Nope. But I will gladly surrender a small bit of grip and power transfer for the ability to flawlessly modulate my grip threshold with the floor. After all, unless you are doing dedicated racing , that extra little edge in grip/power transfer is pretty much lost at sessions. The people with more dependable gear which they don't struggle with to do all the fine inputs will leave you in the dust on a crowded floor.

My suggestion is.
Boot: Quad racer leather

Plates: Probe/rock plate with upgraded trucks and pivot cups. Yellow barrels with flat washers and greased contact points.

Wheels: 95A Royal assassin wheels indoor, 62×38(narrow/full height) poisons outdoor.

177 sounds fine. Out of curiosity what is your total foot length? , just work with the suspension a bit and enjoy carving harder/deeper edges.

As for comfort, they do well, BUT... they are horribly unforgiving, so any imperfection with their shape compared to your feet will likely cause an issue. I have not heat molded my buddy's bonts, so I can't comment if it would indeed fix it perfectly.

My current Bonts are doing great. I think I might have to scrap the project. My regular rink just got a re-coat. It was kind of tacky. Plus I had been working out, doing some squats, and I was putting down a little more power. I ended up tweaking my bad, left, ankle. So I got to thinking, maybe a 10 degree that puts down power a little harder, and with less give than a 45 might not be a great idea for me. I remember my old GT mountain bike. Squishy dual suspension. Bad by fast guy efficiency freaks. But it was great for me and my bad knees, as there was a soft landing when putting down power. That squish as I pedaled. It killed pedaling efficiency, but protected my knees. Then if I casually rode my hard tail on a paved trail, I'd feel it more in my knees. There was no give as power went from the knee joint to the pedal. So, more knee stress. Seems similar to how a 45 and a 10 degree compare. The 10 bites quicker and harder, where the 45 is a little more cushy. The power does not hit so abruptly. So, now, I am back on the fence. ???

[ursle]

I agree with Mort, a leather boot allows the foot to breath and it becomes part of the foot, it is a sensory device, using carbon or fiberglass for quad skating is silly, the foot is going to grind and heat up or the skater is going to be less involved because they have less balance and more pain.

Inline skaters have to use carbon fiber or fiberglass for the support, and their feet suffer, bone spurs.

Plates obviously should be metal, plastic, or nylon absorbe energy.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by ursle

I agree with Mort, a leather boot allows the foot to breath and it becomes part of the foot, it is a sensory device, using carbon or fiberglass for quad skating is silly, the foot is going to grind and heat up or the skater is going to be less involved because they have less balance and more pain.

I think a 10 degree, with full leather boot, and a Bont Leather, with 45 degree might be a wash. The 10 degree bites quicker, but you get give from the boot. My Bont does not give at all, but the 45 plate does not bite as quick. A Bont and a 10 degree?? No give, quick bite. That's probably what would happen. A skater may either love that or hate it.

Inline skaters have to use carbon fiber or fiberglass for the support, and their feet suffer, bone spurs.

Plates obviously should be metal, plastic, or nylon absorbe energy.

The plastic or nylon plate on the stiff fiberglass Bont sole was the central part of the trick. Make a plastic plate better by putting it on a Bont. But as I said on the last post, that quick bite might not be good for me anymore. Me having easy to injure ankle and knees. Might be good for a young buck.

[73watermutt]

I have been skating Riedell on a Pro Line for over a decade and recently tried another Bont after having one about 7 years ago I didn't like. I really like this carbon quadracer and put a Nova on it with upgraded cushions. I get plenty of feedback from my skate and have zero issues with balance or pain. I actually feel more comfortable and planted on the Bonts and my lap times show it! I session skate, shuffle and do footwork and do not feel I have lost anything with the carbon boot period. It does come down to personal preference though. I have skated speed on both inlines and quads over the years and now only skate quads. I just ordered another carbon quadracer and I'm going to put a Pro Line on them.

[Mort]

Action angle means less than how ductile the setup is.

Leather soled boot for the win if you want to have something comfortable, with great all around performance.

Another aspect 8s how well the ID of a bearing fits to an axle. If there is end play in the wheel/axle assembly, modulating grip is so much easier.

My arius plate has a dip at the threads, to 7.3-7.5mm instead of 7.94 on the smooth part of the shaft. The bearings on my royal assassins sit in this area, causing a good bit of end play. If I want it gone, I tighten the nuts down as I have spacers for my wheels.

The arius is a solid link to the floor, mine have shims between the truck assembly and the plate to protect the baseplate, as well as press fit oilite axis pin sleeves and a very close slip fit between them and the axis pin. Hockey stops are SOOOO F'N loud. Ridiculously so.

Now the boot I have is super beat up and soft. The counters in them are destroyed pretty much... so there is a lot of flex in that part of the setup. So the super rigid plate setup is buffered down by the boot and to some degree , the wheels with the end play.

What you need to do is select components that will give you enough give, but not so much you lose a lot of power transfer or grip.


Remember my mention of buddy who has the same arius setup I have ?

We put loose fitting components in his(swaped some moderately worn stock components in) and his ability to modulate grip went up ALOT.

we all lift weight from our feet to encourage slip when doing some moves, the important part here is to have a setup that can still envoke a slide, AND maintain it as you add in some pressure. Get too stiff, and it will clomp across the floor instead. Like a race car with wheel hop. Bad stuff...

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by 73watermutt

I have been skating Riedell on a Pro Line for over a decade and recently tried another Bont after having one about 7 years ago I didn't like. I really like this carbon quadracer and put a Nova on it with upgraded cushions. I get plenty of feedback from my skate and have zero issues with balance or pain. I actually feel more comfortable and planted on the Bonts and my lap times show it! I session skate, shuffle and do footwork and do not feel I have lost anything with the carbon boot period. It does come down to personal preference though. I have skated speed on both inlines and quads over the years and now only skate quads. I just ordered another carbon quadracer and I'm going to put a Pro Line on them.

Cool. Are the setups similar? Like wheelbase wise. How would you compare the two skates?

[73watermutt]

My Riedell and Bonts all have the same wheelbase. I feel like the Bont setups have more snap to the action than the Riedell does. I feel like I'm more connected to the skate with the Bont. It seems to me like the Bont gives more feedback than the Riedell does. They have a feeling of being more precise I guess.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by 73watermutt

My Riedell and Bonts all have the same wheelbase. I feel like the Bont setups have more snap to the action than the Riedell does. I feel like I'm more connected to the skate with the Bont. It seems to me like the Bont gives more feedback than the Riedell does. They have a feeling of being more precise I guess.

Yep. That's it. Connected. My first "good" skate was a Rebel boot, which got along great with my flat wide feet, and a Magnum SFDA45. I then essentially got the same skate, nearly same wheelbase, Bont QRL with an Invader SFDA45. So virtually same skate setup. More connected and precise. The Rebel/Mag was good, but there was a small bit of slop in the boot fit. Not enough to really distract, but noticeable. Especially noticeable when the slop was gone with the Bont. The Bont/Invader made it all feel like it was an extension of my body. I mean, the Rebel/Mag was really good, but the Bont/Invader was a bit better still.

Thx for the Feedback.

[Gorilla]

I have tried a few different nylon plates with Bonts. For me, a fatty, it doesn't work well. For lighter folk, it may be better.

Specific issues -with leather soled boots like my Reidell 595 - I get wheel bite on pretty much all nylon plates (Satelite and Laser excluded). I tried Probe, Skins (DA45), Nova, Bont Ignite, and Sunlite.

In Carbon soled Bont, the wheel bite was far less of an issue. The Nova and Sunlite were completely "bite" free. However, I was never happy with the flexiness of the plates. It is far less predictable and controllable than a stiff metal plate. I tried to factor in plate flex and run slightly tighter suspension... but it just felt "dead" and unpredictable.

I very much like my Bont Quad Racer with fiberglass soles. I prefer a Pilot Falcon plate that is a shorter "sport mount." For derby, which is most of my skating these days, I really need a heel. I absolutely love the Roller Derby Elite Stomp boots with a shorter 10degree Magnesium Octane plate. I do switch the Kingpins to Reactor Pro and the cushions to Proline. My ego wants a fancier skate than the basically stock (except suspension) skate than the RD Elite... but it is comfortable and just works.

Sorry for long winded response.... nylon plates are made better on a carbon sole. But my 220LB body still feels the flex.

[FanJet8]

This is where Armadillo would be appreciated.....I seen where he glued a set of plastic plates to some Bonts and IMO I think it helped the plate become stiffer with the boots but flexible enough to preform well. I used to think about trying bonding an old Satellite plate to a set of Bonts.

Armadillo's knowledge of material bonding was awesome.....it was some of his suspension ideas I could not feel comfortable with.

[Mort]

Originally Posted by FanJet8

This is where Armadillo would be appreciated.....I seen where he glued a set of plastic plates to some Bonts and IMO I think it helped the plate become stiffer with the boots but flexible enough to preform well. I used to think about trying bonding an old Satellite plate to a set of Bonts.

Armadillo's knowledge of material bonding was awesome.....it was some of his suspension ideas I could not feel comfortable with.

Gluing plastic plates to the boots sole helps a hell of a lot. I've done it and the stiffness increases immensely.

Try it, you wont be disappointed, I promise you that.

Tack weld 2 pieces of 1/8th inch steel at/near the corners. Check its flex, then put tacks down those 2 pieces of metal every 1 inch or so. Same principle really.

Hell, even take those 2 pieces of metal and shoe goo them together. It gets crazy how much it changes the structure when everything is bonded together.

Prep work and attention to detail is very important

[dvw]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Anyone out there do a nylon plate on a Bont, either fiberglass or carbon fibre?

Yes, many times.

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Just the notion of getting metal plate performance out of a nylon plate has always tickled the heck out of me. Getting something to perform better that it ought to, pretty cool. I am thinking of a fiberglass Quad Racer, not sure if I want another white or maybe a black, a Red or Purple Rock plate running either Red or Purple gummy suspension.

You won't quite get that, but depending on your selection, you can do well. Not all plastic plates are created equal. The original ROCK plates were above average as plastic goes, but there are better choices.

Look at the Nova. That plastic has so much fiber in it, they're really stiff. Basically a plastic Ultimate III, behaves a lot like one, or a Pro Line.

Also look at the Bont Ignite. Lots of glass in that one also. Suspension takes some work, but can be made to skate very well.

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

I am thinking on getting a size 8 rock which should give me a 177mm wheelbase as opposed to the 167mm I currently use.

You'll hate yourself in the morning.

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Anyone have any input on comfort between fiberglass and carbon fiber Bont. I did meet on guy that raced carbon fiber, but preferred fiberglass Bont for training/just tooling around. Are the carbons uncomfortable?

The carbon is stiff and can be uncomfortable if they don't fit right, so size and heat molding is important, but that's also true of the fiberglass. The fit is the same, and there's not a lot of difference in the rigidity. The carbon boots are marginally lighter. They go in the same category as titanium plate parts.

[Mort]

Originally Posted by dvw

You'll hate yourself in the morning.

I dont get why you all attribute longer plates to such horrid skating experience.

I've been on a 193 and a 186 and felt no real difference.(heck I've Even messed with a 160mm avenger and my foot is an 11.5 to 12.... ) The only thing skating wise that changed was when doing a 1 foot, rear axle wheeling truck. It was a smidge easier. Just like a shorter front axle would be a bit easier for grapevine stuffs or jb skins and dance, but no where close to fatigue differences.

It's like everyone wants their quad plates to be able to easily carve a 2 foot circle(1 foot radius).

[dvw]

Originally Posted by Mort

I dont get why you all attribute longer plates to such horrid skating experience.

Not everyone, just rufus. I know what he skates on now. He'll feel the difference.

Originally Posted by Mort

I've been on a 193 and a 186 and felt no real difference.(heck I've Even messed with a 160mm avenger and my foot is an 11.5 to 12.... )

You're clearly not sensitive to it. I am. I can feel 1/8" in plate length or placement. Not everyone is like that. Likewise, not everyone responds to shorter plates. But many do and don't realize it until after they've tried it.

Everyone is different. If we weren't there wouldn't be so many different choices.

Originally Posted by Mort

It's like everyone wants their quad plates to be able to easily carve a 2 foot circle(1 foot radius).

Well no, although I have a couple of pairs that will do ~3' diameter if I really focus on it. That's not the goal at all.

[Mort]

I love all the different things, plate lengths, action angles, cushions variance, tuning up a suspension(more so with non stock parts or mods) etc

Just saying it's the way people talk.

I notice virtually any change to my skates and the differences, but as for actual GAINS in maneuverability when I shortened my plate by 1 size(6mm I think, just moved the rear up, kept the front location) there weren't really any to speak of. I could try and put my friends size 10 on my boot lol go down to a 180mm i think as the next step

I shouldn't say it went unnoticed, More like unneeded/unnecessary to increase carving abilities. Sorry about the poor wording

I'm sure you know of the types I speak of when they act as if wheelbase is everything, more so, getting a short plate and anyone who skates a longer plate = lolzersk8ter. Myself, it's not about that, it's about more natural balance points, pivot points and such. That usually means front axle where you would grab a pencil with your toes off the floor and a rear axle centered under the heel. The shorter plate crew take that rear axle an inch(or sometimes more) off, and pushes it under the ankle bone joint.

This just seems like a "specialized" setup that is being used for a blanket purpose where the weakness(rearward stability or getting stood up) is being compromised for virtually no real gain. Even more so when I've seen casual skaters at a session lean back a little because of another wayward skater or a flailing limb from someone only to see the eat it because there was nothing to support them back there.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by dvw

Not everyone, just rufus. I know what he skates on now. He'll feel the difference.

Might be a moot point. As much as I love the fit of my Bonts, I CAN skate better, well, at least cut left or right without limitations, on inlines. I have just upped my fitness level, and got a pair of wireless headphones. I skated 5 good songs hard the other night, but in my enthusiasm, tweaked my left ankle. Gonna go inline to protect the ankle.

I got an insole that should mitigate my problems with my Sebas, and I'll FINALLY get the Alakis' properly heat molded. Think I'll try the Sebas first, fully rockered. I need a pair of small wheels for the Alaki. That boot really presses my calf forward. I need to be able to get back on the heel more, so I need to rocker that as well.