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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old July 21st, 2019, 06:36 AM   #41
jackbkwikn
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No.
Not Salty at all.
Just stateing the facts.
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Old July 21st, 2019, 01:40 PM   #42
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Looking at the world record times for roller skates compiled in '06, most of the records were made in the 60's, none after '06.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Roller-S...-Speed-Records

Obviously, Arius weren't available before '06, so now, let's watch Arius take some world record times, I'm sure Boen has many, and obviously Arius must be a superior plate, it should be a simple matter of racing, put up or ........
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Old July 21st, 2019, 03:35 PM   #43
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Looking at the world record times for roller skates compiled in '06, most of the records were made in the 60's, none after '06.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Roller-S...-Speed-Records

Obviously, Arius weren't available before '06, so now, let's watch Arius take some world record times, I'm sure Boen has many, and obviously Arius must be a superior plate, it should be a simple matter of racing, put up or ........
A fast skater is fast not because of gear, but because of physical prowess and form. Record times dont exactly reflect power transfer or speed potential. Also quad racing is still low on participation, even though it's been on the rise.
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Old July 21st, 2019, 11:16 PM   #44
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I agree with Mort on this 1.

It's not the gear but the Motor.
Fastest guy I know skates a footy boot and 60 dollar plastic bont plate .With crappy wheels.

Oh and ursle what you posted up is U.S national records.

I'm pretty sure all the current speed records have been replaced with inline records all but 1 .Short sprint like 100 m or so still held by an Italian guy from the 80s.
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Old July 21st, 2019, 11:32 PM   #45
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I agree with Mort on this 1.

It's not the gear but the Motor.
Fastest guy I know skates a footy boot and 60 dollar plastic bont plate .With crappy wheels.

Oh and ursle what you posted up is U.S national records.

I'm pretty sure all the current speed records have been replaced with inline records all but 1 .Short sprint like 100 m or so still held by an Italian guy from the 80s.
Right? A slow guy on the fastest gear ever is still going to be slow. He my be faster than he was on crap gear, but it wont be by much.

While I love the plate.. the way it's made is crap. The Arius in stock form needs work, I added .005 shims(2) between the plate and the truck. One above one below, then I had the plastic axis pin sleeves upgraded to press fit brass versions that are bonded to the truck, and the axis pins a very close tolerance to the bore in the sleeves.

Then I trimmed the cushions down and removed the stabilization pins to make edging behave correctly.

Good design with a hinge, poor implementation.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 02:31 PM   #46
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Arius can actully be cut with a simple small climbing rope.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=5DA9AEA3

And you cant set the action, and they have no pre compression, and you are metal on metal on metal .
Well, basically they sucks. But maybe for speed skating they could be good , cause having no real truck nor kingpin, they are damn light.

Yes, old design :
http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...3_996397965_n/

http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...9_959827672_n/

Boen were forged alloy, nothing like the "tincan and hate" powerdyne recipe.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 05:41 PM   #47
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Arius can actully be cut with a simple small climbing rope.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=5DA9AEA3

And you cant set the action, and they have no pre compression, and you are metal on metal on metal .
Well, basically they sucks. But maybe for speed skating they could be good , cause having no real truck nor kingpin, they are damn light.

Yes, old design :
http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...3_996397965_n/

http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...9_959827672_n/

Boen were forged alloy, nothing like the "tincan and hate" powerdyne recipe.
So you think a rope destroyed the plate? I don't think so... most likely not enough radius in the beams/flanges of the frame, causing stress cracks then failure. Arius plates have no real suspension so they endure more stress than you average plate, softer wheels help but still vibration can take it's toll.
I designed some plates years ago like the arius and looked into varius ways to dampen turning and truck action. I drew what your pics have, in one of my versions. It was the least desirable because of urethane compression/ displacement issues vs surface area. You can't put the most desirable truck action in place because of physical limitations vs component strength. I ended up drawing a very close finished drawing/print akin to the arius design. Still have the print too.
On a rink floor they hold up well with Mort's documented modifications. But outdoors is hard on any skate.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 09:07 PM   #48
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Arius can actully be cut with a simple small climbing rope.

https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=5DA9AEA3

And you cant set the action, and they have no pre compression, and you are metal on metal on metal .
Well, basically they sucks. But maybe for speed skating they could be good , cause having no real truck nor kingpin, they are damn light.

Yes, old design :
http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...3_996397965_n/

http://photos.yeure.eu/plogger/rolle...9_959827672_n/

Boen were forged alloy, nothing like the "tincan and hate" powerdyne recipe.
An added stress riser at a minimal thickness area where you inevitably caused abrasion and expect it to not damage anything?
No one else to my knowledge has ever broken the plate there. I hockey stop A LOT. I have destroyed many sets of 688 bearings, worn out trucks andplates, and never done that damage to the plate. That is 100% user error and a bad fitting boot.

I'll not defend the materials the plate is made of, I have had my plate tested and they are not the 6061 as originally advertised. Which is now just listed as "aircraft aluminum".
I have skated my plates outdoor on many occasions and put far more lateral forces on them in an indoor setting than anyone has outdoor for someone around the 180#(81kg) weight. No issues as you show.

Any aluminum is going to suffer wear from a cord rubbing against it. It shouldnt even be there. If you needed that it should have gone under the plate between the plate and boot, and had a cup fashioned around the heel of the boot.

The arius also has no dampening between the axles and the plates so it's much rougher outdoor.

You can set the firmness .. kinda... Gen1 trucks can be modified. One can use the stabilization pins, cut some off of them, or omit them entirely.

My current setup has them out, and the cushions are cut down.

I feel as if no one wants to make things better , they just want the same old slow ass kingpin design

I made fixes needed, got it figured out.
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Old July 30th, 2019, 10:49 PM   #49
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An added stress riser at a minimal thickness area where you inevitably caused abrasion and expect it to not damage anything?
No one else to my knowledge has ever broken the plate there. I hockey stop A LOT. I have destroyed many sets of 688 bearings, worn out trucks andplates, and never done that damage to the plate. That is 100% user error and a bad fitting boot.

I'll not defend the materials the plate is made of, I have had my plate tested and they are not the 6061 as originally advertised. Which is now just listed as "aircraft aluminum".
I have skated my plates outdoor on many occasions and put far more lateral forces on them in an indoor setting than anyone has outdoor for someone around the 180#(81kg) weight. No issues as you show.

Any aluminum is going to suffer wear from a cord rubbing against it. It shouldnt even be there. If you needed that it should have gone under the plate between the plate and boot, and had a cup fashioned around the heel of the boot.

The arius also has no dampening between the axles and the plates so it's much rougher outdoor.

You can set the firmness .. kinda... Gen1 trucks can be modified. One can use the stabilization pins, cut some off of them, or omit them entirely.

My current setup has them out, and the cushions are cut down.

I feel as if no one wants to make things better , they just want the same old slow ass kingpin design

I made fixes needed, got it figured out.
I'm kinda wondering if this modless plate might have the stiffest cushions installed. Yours being tuned would definitely soften impacts from side shocks as the trucks are rocked skating outdoors, stock would not. No way am I believing the strap broke the frame.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 12:06 AM   #50
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I'm kinda wondering if this modless plate might have the stiffest cushions installed. Yours being tuned would definitely soften impacts from side shocks as the trucks are rocked skating outdoors, stock would not. No way am I believing the strap broke the frame.
The frame is very hard and brittle, some scratching and etching from the cord started a wear spot, and consequently made it weak enough for the metal to begin to tear, that tear propagated, and we see the results.

While it did not break it, it created the condition which caused the failure
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Old July 31st, 2019, 05:08 AM   #51
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You could question endlessly how this happend. Truth is these plates are crap. The original design before powerdyne bought it was way stiffer and using 7075, probably for a reason.

Rethinking the old KP design is very interesting but so far no one came up with anything better, This is true not only for quad skates but for skateboarding too.

And this design has been used for more than a century now.

So if you think it's easy to do better, chances are you are wrong.

But still a very good challenge, and probably someday someone will come with something better. Hope so
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Old July 31st, 2019, 12:16 PM   #52
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You could question endlessly how this happend. Truth is these plates are crap. The original design before powerdyne bought it was way stiffer and using 7075, probably for a reason.

Rethinking the old KP design is very interesting but so far no one came up with anything better, This is true not only for quad skates but for skateboarding too.

And this design has been used for more than a century now.

So if you think it's easy to do better, chances are you are wrong.

But still a very good challenge, and probably someday someone will come with something better. Hope so
A lot of what happens to damage skate plates is misapplication. Too much weight for a particular plate, using lightweight speed plates in abusive application and incorrect tuning or over tightening of suspension. Lots of lightweight speed plates being used in derby resulting in lots of breakage. But people will buy what they want no matter if it is recommended or not.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 01:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by JorisKB View Post
You could question endlessly how this happened. Truth is these plates are crap. The original design before powerdyne bought it was way stiffer and using 7075, probably for a reason.

Rethinking the old KP design is very interesting but so far no one came up with anything better, This is true not only for quad skates but for skateboarding too.

And this design has been used for more than a century now.

So if you think it's easy to do better, chances are you are wrong.

But still a very good challenge, and probably someday someone will come with something better. Hope so
I'm waiting for anti-gravity devices, thinking the skateboard in back to the future.
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Old July 31st, 2019, 04:26 PM   #54
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I'm waiting for anti-gravity devices, thinking the skateboard in back to the future.
Thinking jupiter ascending
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Old August 1st, 2019, 05:10 PM   #55
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For a session/basic art skater, why would I want a short forward mount?
For traditional art disciplines, chances are good that you don't. While I am an advocate of shorter plates, they're not for everyone in every situation.

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Quad skates work better with more weight on the front wheels than back which dictates a slightly forward leaning athletic stance.
Depends on what you're doing. Old speed skaters trick, if you want to scrub off a little speed going into a corner, put a little weight on your toes. Need to run up on a guy a little, get your weight on your heels. Skates are slower with weight on the front axle. Works on ice blades too.

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F short plates.
Not necessary.

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"Turning" ... yet to see anyone out corner me even when I had a 193mm wheelbase on a size 10 vanilla freestyle. My foot is 283mm in length.
"Turning" and "cornering" are two vastly different things.

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Imo if you need your plate to turn more, and you have to go to a short wheelbase to accomplish this.., maybe your skating form or athleticism is the problem?
Or maybe not. Maybe it's a pure style thing. Or maybe your particular level of athletic ability permits you to overpower shortcomings.

Or maybe it just doesn't suit you, and that's ok too.

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The primary factor in how a skater can turn is the skater, not some hack job bandaid fix of cutting down an inch of wheelbase for negligible results.
It's hardly a "hack job" any more than being choosy about what size underwear to buy.

The primary factor in how a skater can turn is the realization that there is no single primary factor.

The skater and the equipment, in concert and in component parts, is the formula. Change any one thing and you have tampered with the formula, and it may now not be correct.
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Old August 1st, 2019, 06:47 PM   #56
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Quad skates work better with more weight on the front wheels than back which dictates a slightly forward leaning athletic stance. Kind of like running. You can't run well on your heels.

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Depends on what you're doing. Old speed skaters trick, if you want to scrub off a little speed going into a corner, put a little weight on your toes. Need to run up on a guy a little, get your weight on your heels. Skates are slower with weight on the front axle. Works on ice blades too.
Interesting. I'll have to play with the toe heel thing.

But I don't think those two examples contradict the simple bio-mechanics of my point. To move, especially quickly, the human body will have a forward leaning stance. Having skates on does not change that mechanical fact.

Another mechanical fact is a distributed load rolls easier and therefore, unless other forces are at play, faster. So of course, "Skates are slower with weight on the front axle", just as they would be with weight on the rear axle.

It might be that I'm not understanding your descriptions of weight distribution. From pure physics it would seem that on quads unless the attached human's center of gravity is in front of the rear axle a rearward tilt is inevitable, usually resulting in a fall. If you accept this as fact then it sounds like you may talking about more evenly distributing weight when you say "Need to run up on a guy a little, get your weight on your heels." Otherwise I can't imagine a way a person running on their heels would ever be faster than a person on their toes, skates or not.


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"Turning" and "cornering" are two vastly different things.
Definitely!

I see many skaters that go around corners without turning! Everyone with solid truck skates does it, just as those with extremely hard cushions do and those that heven't figured out skates yet.

But why would you want to? I show a lot of skaters how to turn and without exception they are delighted in the results. Most want more turning, not less.


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Or maybe not. Maybe it's a pure style thing. Or maybe your particular level of athletic ability permits you to overpower shortcomings.
In Mort's case the latter is definitely true.

.
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Old August 9th, 2019, 10:27 PM   #57
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Interesting. I'll have to play with the toe heel thing.

You should. It's an eye-opener.



Quote:
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But I don't think those two examples contradict the simple bio-mechanics of my point. To move, especially quickly, the human body will have a forward leaning stance. Having skates on does not change that mechanical fact.


It's more getting your weight headed in the direction of motion. An abrupt side motion would not benefit from wight over your toes. Think of the way a motorcycle turns.



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when you say "Need to run up on a guy a little, get your weight on your heels." Otherwise I can't imagine a way a person running on their heels would ever be faster than a person on their toes, skates or not.


Think of it in more subtle terms. Get some speed up and get into a coasting tuck, like you're headed into a corner. Without changing your stance or balance at all, curl your toes upward in the boot firmly. You'll feel yourself gain a little speed. Likewise, press down with the ball of your foot, you'll feel some drag. It might take a few tries for you to get the technique, but once you get it, the light bulb will really come on.
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Old August 10th, 2019, 12:53 AM   #58
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Well, I know one real good way to demonstrate the advantage of toe up. Either actually up, or less pressure, pulling up.

I like hitting the the carpet heading to the water fountain toes up. I have Short Forward, so I can't just lean back. That'd be a disaster. I usually lead with my left foot, toe completely up, but just a little, right foot about a foot back while I try and lift the right toe.

Using that little scheme leaves me with more momentum, and less friction when I hit the carpet.
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Old August 10th, 2019, 01:42 PM   #59
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Think of it in more subtle terms. Get some speed up and get into a coasting tuck, like you're headed into a corner. Without changing your stance or balance at all, curl your toes upward in the boot firmly. You'll feel yourself gain a little speed. Likewise, press down with the ball of your foot, you'll feel some drag. It might take a few tries for you to get the technique, but once you get it, the light bulb will really come on.

Works on snow with skis also, well obviously if you weight the front of the ski while it's on edge you're going to make a very sharp turn obviously slowing down.
But, when you weight the rear of the skis either on edge or flat you get an immediate kick of speed, just dropping your butt low over and over will accelerate you, and it's not subtle.
To be fast in a course on skis you get as small as you can, move the least amount possible (except for constantly weighting the tails of the skis for acceleration) and of course, make clean carves.
Not to off topic

Alpine Snowboard also.
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