S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Speed Skating Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 17th, 2014, 09:05 PM   #61
slowsk8
Senior Member
 
slowsk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tukwila, just south of Seattle
Posts: 1,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterdog View Post
Mort may get a bit off track sometimes BUT....Mort made the trip to Michigan (from WV) to skate at my local rink last year....and he entered a local race the next day. I'll just say he is a beast on skates. He is a very strong and good skater. I was impressed.
Yes we have all read about it and I'm sure I would be impressed. Then I would say, get some training and good equipment and you could go far.
Do you really think he was so good to compete outside of a beginners league?
slowsk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2014, 10:42 PM   #62
skaterdog
Senior Member
 
skaterdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowsk8 View Post
Yes we have all read about it and I'm sure I would be impressed. Then I would say, get some training and good equipment and you could go far.
Do you really think he was so good to compete outside of a beginners league?
I'll just say Mort would do well if he listened to some of the advice he is getting. Speedskating is a humbling sport and you really have to learn from the skaters who have the experience. I think a lot of good skaters come into it thinking it's similar to fast session skating but don't appreciate the learning curve.
__________________
Brakeless Bozo
skaterdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2014, 06:00 AM   #63
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

I do not doubt that I could be faster in a lower cut inline boot because of flexibility, not to mention a bigger frame, larger wheels and a lot less weight. But to dismiss cuffs(or anything for that matter) completely, is wrong.


Where i can make use of my cuff the most is actually in the straights. Doesn't help much in rink speed skating with the exception of dodging kids and preloading a stride here and there. I will say an articulating cuff is worlds better than those overpriced garbage hockey skates. Lol I hate those things.

Thinking back to cuffs though the only time I load any forces on it for "racing" as it were is the inside portion of my shin. For you double pushers out there, as I begin a stride. Icant say for certain, but it seems like I can reach farther with a cuff than without one. Heck a small cresent shaped support on the inner side would do the same and add almost no weight, or restriction. The only time it woukd be used is a new stride as it would brace on the lower part of your shin. Heh, maybe I should make one, race with it and win. Couldnt be too hard,

Skaterdog, thanks for the reps. . Lol I was so fattened buy the time I got to race. I started the trip weighing 175-178, i raced at 192. Lol. All that food thats not available here in wv. Ethnic diversity and its cultural foods got me, I had to try it all.
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2014, 07:46 AM   #64
bhree
Amateur Potholes Dodger
 
bhree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 110
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdP View Post
The other thing to remember is that if you remove the plastic/carbon support (which I presume is what you've done?), then the cuff of your slalom boots will go soft pretty quickly under the extra pressure/bending. It's a quick way to ruin a boot so be careful (!) - I've seen a couple of people follow your line of reasoning and remove the support before.
With ankle support removed it seems I still have lateral support. It's lighter and I can bend more. The liner now without plastic cuff don't rub each other. I don't do slalom actually my skating involving stop and go, sprinting and dodging some objects on the street.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EdP View Post
Is there a trick that you're struggling with that makes you think that you could do with some extra movement round the cuff? (apart from trying to do a proper speed skating stride of course).
I have feeling that my lower legs is against the cuffs, and this cause faster fatigueness. With them removed I closely feeling like wearing sport shoes, don't know how the stress lessened and my legs can endure more distance. My road isn't smooth I envy street skaters on youtube.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Double push is easy in an abover ankle cuffed boot.
I dream of double push, but with freestyle boot can it happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I will say that I can use certian muscles in my hips more with my higher cuff because of the reduced strain on my ankles.
I think I had like this until I remove the ankle support cuffs.
bhree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 03:39 AM   #65
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhree View Post

I have feeling that my lower legs is against the cuffs, and this cause faster fatigueness. With them removed I closely feeling like wearing sport shoes, don't know how the stress lessened and my legs can endure more distance. My road isn't smooth I envy street skaters on youtube.
If your cuffs were resistive to your ankle movements then its easy to see why your not as tired over s long distance when you removed them. Theres also less weight.

Its hard to learn new techniques on rough ground where grip and roll is unpredictable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bhree View Post
I dream of double push, but with freestyle boot can it happen?
Sure can. I can do it in any skate, be it quads, inline speed, Rec skates, hockey skates or slaloms style skates.
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 08:49 AM   #66
Letme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Slovenia (Europe)
Posts: 1,452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Sure can. I can do it in any skate, be it quads, inline speed, Rec skates, hockey skates or slaloms style skates.
I will just write this then I'm out because this is really a newbie telling newbie what to do.
Without ankle movement you cannot do a proper DP - maximum you will get out is weight transfer. Double push = classical push (with weight transfer) + ankle and knee push, not just classical push with more carve in for better weight transfer. And quads? What exactly does bend there to snap you out on inside push?
__________________
My speed roller skating club can be found on http://www.rklj.si
Bont distributor for South-East Europe. Online shop can be found on http://www.bont.si
Letme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 11:15 AM   #67
bhree
Amateur Potholes Dodger
 
bhree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 110
Default

Yes, they're also lighter. I have more freedom to put the wheels on any edge depend on the surface condition.

I have some smoother places to practice jumps, cross over turn, braking or any short distance technique, but DP requires longer track that's not available. But I try on them sometimes.

It's cool to DP on any skates, I'm still afraid of falling, imagining hit a small stone during underpush. As I remember when trying DP I also feel less fatigue, now I don't do often just classic push as correct as possible on outside edge may be with little toe flick
bhree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 05:28 PM   #68
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letme View Post
I will just write this then I'm out because this is really a newbie telling newbie what to do.
Without ankle movement you cannot do a proper DP - maximum you will get out is weight transfer. Double push = classical push (with weight transfer) + ankle and knee push, not just classical push with more carve in for better weight transfer. And quads? What exactly does bend there to snap you out on inside push?
In a quad your action does most of the work but you still have to us pressures correctly in a rec skate which uses smaler wheels you dont need near as much lean, and its much easier to accomplish.

It seems to me that your right man. 1/2,the people who are on this forum who give advise think they can skate...
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 11:20 PM   #69
kufman
Senior Member
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,159
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letme View Post
I will just write this then I'm out because this is really a newbie telling newbie what to do.
Without ankle movement you cannot do a proper DP - maximum you will get out is weight transfer. Double push = classical push (with weight transfer) + ankle and knee push, not just classical push with more carve in for better weight transfer. And quads? What exactly does bend there to snap you out on inside push?
I will have to disagree with this. You can do a reasonably good double push on just about any type of skate. You don't need to flex your ankle to do a double push. It is more about how you transfer your weight in relation to where you legs are.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #70
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by kufman View Post
I will have to disagree with this. You can do a reasonably good double push on just about any type of skate. You don't need to flex your ankle to do a double push. It is more about how you transfer your weight in relation to where you legs are.
+1
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 04:42 AM   #71
jhnsk8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kufman View Post
I will have to disagree with this. You can do a reasonably good double push on just about any type of skate. You don't need to flex your ankle to do a double push. It is more about how you transfer your weight in relation to where you legs are.
Ankle flex is bad form as it causes unnecessary friction which slows one down. The reason is that it disrupts the optimum alignment needed for complete weight transfer.

Richard Nett is doing and has done a lot of damage by leaving that double push video on his site up advocating ankle flex. I wasted YEARS doing what is advocated there with very little to show for it and the unlearning has been tedious to say the least. But also a revelation. I'm getting increasing comments on how much my form has improved since I have abandoned it.

If you have ankle flex you're not pushing through the middle of the frame! It is BAD FORM. Some flex is inevitable because our ankles are not made of titanium and boot support is limited even under the best of circumstances. Don't worry too much about a little bit of flex.

I've substituted deliberate ankle flex for developing a wide range of gears with full weight transfer. With ankle flex I hit a wall and I have discovered a door in the wall that was obscured by dogma.
jhnsk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 05:40 AM   #72
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

Depends on the direction of flex(left/right or front/back) and how much flex.

I dont watch other peoples videos myself. If your skating right, you'll feel the difference. What many people fail to grasp is how in a rolling environment you must be smooth, and transition seamlessly. This requires ankle flex, not too much, nor too little. Being rigid is a great way to waste energy.
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 03:27 PM   #73
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhnsk8 View Post
Ankle flex is bad form as it causes unnecessary friction which slows one down. The reason is that it disrupts the optimum alignment needed for complete weight transfer.

Richard Nett is doing and has done a lot of damage by leaving that double push video on his site up advocating ankle flex. I wasted YEARS doing what is advocated there with very little to show for it and the unlearning has been tedious to say the least. But also a revelation. I'm getting increasing comments on how much my form has improved since I have abandoned it.

If you have ankle flex you're not pushing through the middle of the frame! It is BAD FORM. Some flex is inevitable because our ankles are not made of titanium and boot support is limited even under the best of circumstances. Don't worry too much about a little bit of flex.

I've substituted deliberate ankle flex for developing a wide range of gears with full weight transfer. With ankle flex I hit a wall and I have discovered a door in the wall that was obscured by dogma.
I never thought that Nett's point with the video was to encourage ankle flex, but to demonstrate the feeling of inside and outside edges. In order to translate force into the ground, your under push needs to act like your regular push, in the sense that your foot, ankle, and leg need to be in a straight line. Kufman can correct me, but I think this is what he is getting at. I think Eddy Matzger uses a lot of toe drive to steer his carve, but if you look at where the force is applied in his underpush, it doesn't involve any side to side ankle flex.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #74
skaterdog
Senior Member
 
skaterdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theDonnybrook View Post
I never thought that Nett's point with the video was to encourage ankle flex, but to demonstrate the feeling of inside and outside edges. In order to translate force into the ground, your under push needs to act like your regular push, in the sense that your foot, ankle, and leg need to be in a straight line. Kufman can correct me, but I think this is what he is getting at. I think Eddy Matzger uses a lot of toe drive to steer his carve, but if you look at where the force is applied in his underpush, it doesn't involve any side to side ankle flex.
Nett encourages ankle flex. Just read some of the garbage he writes in his "reviews". Remember, this is the guy that at one point kept saying the max size on wheels will be 84mm...those "big wheels" will never work. This after they had been working for a long time.
__________________
Brakeless Bozo
skaterdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #75
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skaterdog View Post
Nett encourages ankle flex. Just read some of the garbage he writes in his "reviews". Remember, this is the guy that at one point kept saying the max size on wheels will be 84mm...those "big wheels" will never work. This after they had been working for a long time.
Noted. I didn't start learning this until after moving to 110mm wheels. I missed the subtext. In that sense, I don't necessarily agree with the need for ankle flex.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 07:09 PM   #76
jhnsk8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Depends on the direction of flex(left/right or front/back) and how much flex.

I dont watch other peoples videos myself. If your skating right, you'll feel the difference. What many people fail to grasp is how in a rolling environment you must be smooth, and transition seamlessly. This requires ankle flex, not too much, nor too little. Being rigid is a great way to waste energy.
Font/back flex is GOOD, so you can keep your knees over your toes when sitting low with less restriction from the boot, which is usually the primary reason cited for use of low cut boots.

Left/right flex is generally very bad for pushing. It creates friction only for the sake of friction. It is useful mostly for slaloming, when you >want< friction to slow down.

Your comments about smoothness and not being rigid are very well taken. Mantia has said that he likes to "keep my ankles nice and firm", which doesn't mean rigid. Since muscular ankle control is by the long tendons connected to the calf of the leg, this is limited and being straight up and down on the ankles is mostly about proper balance - something Matzger has always emphasized.
jhnsk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #77
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

I agree with you about the lowcut vs high cuffed boots as the primary reason for using lower boots.

I think you may be on the borderline of confusing friction with torque/pressure.

Btw, this "friction" inside a boot doesn't slow your inertia on skates unless your transitioning it to the ground by cutting your wheels against a direction of travel in a resistive manner. You can pump and carve through slalom cones or just doing the manuvers with the only reall loss of speed il be that your covering a lot of ground in the same forward distance because of the legwork.

I want the absolute MOST friction possible when speaking about any footwear. Why? Because fricion is not slide/slip. It is the resistance to it. Breaking friction makes you lose the power you have invested.

A speed coach I know also said that they dont want any extra friction in their boots. What they really mean to say is they want more friction, to prevent slip, which wastes power before you even get it to the ground.

Friction doesn't exactly waste energy. It depends on where it is, how much you have, and how much you need. Too much friction could possibly waste power, as in too soft a wheel.
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2014, 06:58 AM   #78
jhnsk8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I agree with you about the lowcut vs high cuffed boots as the primary reason for using lower boots.

I think you may be on the borderline of confusing friction with torque/pressure.

Btw, this "friction" inside a boot doesn't slow your inertia on skates unless your transitioning it to the ground by cutting your wheels against a direction of travel in a resistive manner. You can pump and carve through slalom cones or just doing the manuvers with the only reall loss of speed il be that your covering a lot of ground in the same forward distance because of the legwork.

I want the absolute MOST friction possible when speaking about any footwear. Why? Because fricion is not slide/slip. It is the resistance to it. Breaking friction makes you lose the power you have invested.

A speed coach I know also said that they dont want any extra friction in their boots. What they really mean to say is they want more friction, to prevent slip, which wastes power before you even get it to the ground.

Friction doesn't exactly waste energy. It depends on where it is, how much you have, and how much you need. Too much friction could possibly waste power, as in too soft a wheel.
I meant unnecessary friction of the <wheels> during the push. IOW, forcing the skate to go in a direction it doesn't want to go by fighting the smooth roll, mistaking the pressure involved with that as power.

I agree the friction in boots you describe is very desirable.

Sorry I wasn't clear.
jhnsk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2014, 08:42 AM   #79
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,597
Default

Its cool, we all are roots of confusion on occasion. I know I have been. Lol

Yea for skating smoothness is power, speed, and endurance.
Mort is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2014, 02:24 AM   #80
MANY_SkatingDave
Skating = Tear RIFF ic
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Massachusetts: N. Central & NE
Posts: 4,654
Default Don't Give Up on The Newbie Experts, they are learning.

Hi Letme,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Letme View Post
I will just write this then I'm out because this is really a newbie telling newbie what to do.
Without ankle movement you cannot do a proper DP - maximum you will get out is weight transfer. Double push = classical push (with weight transfer) + ankle and knee push, not just classical push with more carve in for better weight transfer. And quads? What exactly does bend there to snap you out on inside push?
I agree, leave for now and let them hash it out.

I love that video you posted for Mort to learn, yet as you should know in Slovak country and the surrounding region learning is tough for even educated people. I have roots to the area you live which is kind of neat. One in old Ruthenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia). I also went looking for a French guy on a machine doing the Double Push in a timing experiment, yet could not find the video. To be honest I think that video that you posted, that I have seen before, went over Mort's head. It did not fit Mort's argument, yet Mort will adapt.

Don't Give UP. Sometimes on this forum you just have to state your case, and knowledge, give a good video like you gave, and the let those that are not at the same knowledge level slowly learn.

And yes GET MAD, yet come back. I HATE losing Experts..

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave

Edit-01: An example of Mort learning. He once wrote and was supported by another that NO One could ever know the difference in their speed by changing to a better quality or speed bearing. Crappy bearings, bones swiss, ceramic were all the same. He was blasted pretty hard by many, yet MA/NY Dave says take it in stride for a guy learning. Sometimes Guys learn by fighting.
__________________
InDoor Quads: Witch Doctor Wheels, Bones Swiss/Qube-Gold Bearings, Older RollerBlade Wrist Guards -| InDoor Clothes: Cargo Shorts, Sweat Towel

Last edited by MANY_SkatingDave; January 23rd, 2014 at 03:02 AM. Reason: A Learning Style Example
MANY_SkatingDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.