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Old January 25th, 2011, 09:38 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by inlina View Post
Interesting! This all comes down to F*T=m*v (impulse = momentum). Perhaps the next step is deployable micro-airbags in wrist guards.
Bah! who needs airbags, when you have small children to fall on ( oops )

Seriously though, I'm wondering if a whole bunch of layers of good old bubble wrap stuffed under the splints would be just as effective.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 09:43 AM   #122
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I regret not wearing wrist guards. My entire family is going to be wearing them right along with me. My husband has fallen a couple of times and hurt his wrist and after spending several thousand dollars (even with insurance) to pay for pins to be drilled into my arm to hold it together after a backwards skate fall, he's pretty well supportive of the idea.

I'm amazed at how many people fall the same way and get the same long lasting, extremely painful injuries and still don't wear the protective gear.

If i could just get used to the idea of wearing knee pads I'd wear them. I'm recovering from having back to back knee surgeries over the past 2 months where my knee caps were put back in line by cutting the thigh muscle and reattaching it. It's been a horribly painful recovery (the surgery was not due to injury but congenital defects needing to be surgically fixed) and I don't think i could withstand the pain of falling on the tender area.

I don't think I'll ever be able to skate the same way again after watching what was done to my knees during surgery. I can't justify messing them up by a bad skate fall.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 07:45 PM   #123
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2 years ago I had a bad fall on asphalt track and landed on my shoulder. I ended up with a torn tendon; could not even lift up my arm initially. There was no visible bruises on the shoulder. After 6 months of extremely painful weekly physiotherapy sessions, I finally recovered and started skating again.

Last week, I was hit by a cyclist from behind. The force sent both of us flying and we both laid on the asphalt track. This time the impact was even greater and my same shoulder (same spot) has visible bruises. Fortunately, apart from a little soreness on the shoulder area the next day, I did not suffer any injury.

The difference is that I was 25kg (55lbs) lighter this second time round. I weighted 98kg 2 years ago and only 73kg now. My lighter frame produces a smaller impact during the recent fall compared to the 1st incident. The debate on whether bone density has anything to do with how one falls is immaterial. You cannot change your bone structure but you certainly can change how much fat you have. So folks, shed some weight and get fit.

Oh did I mention I wore full protection both times (in fact every time I skate), i.e., helmet, wrist, elbow and knee guard.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 11:16 PM   #124
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As someone who's spent many years roadracing motorcycles and now races Formula 1 sidecars on the National circuit... I have spent quite a bit of time breakdancing down strips of asphalt at triple digit speeds.

In nearly every single instance save one I was able to pop up once I stopped sliding bow to the crowd, and moonwalk off the track unscathed thanks to the amazing amount of high-tech safety gear I was wearing at the time. 2500 dollar CE armored leathers, Carbon/Kevlar gauntlet length armored gloves, armored articulated boots, Neck to tailbone articulated hard-armor spine/rib/kidney protection, Carbon/Kevlar helmet with CE lining.

When I first started skating over a year ago one of the first things I knew this was something I was going to get serious about. So I bought good gear. And I wear it. Not just at practice, bouts, and scrims... But when I go to free skates I armor up as well. That means full knee/elbow/wrist gear, and throwing on my lid.

If there are no other derby people at the rink I might be the only person out there with a helmet on for the session. But the -only- time I've fallen and smacked the back of my head was at a free skate, lightly concussing myself in the process even with the helmet on.

I never go to the rink planning to fall, but it's nice to know that if it happens I'm dressed for it.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 04:07 AM   #125
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if your wearing the wrist guards that brace your wrist (eg. solid plastic on the front and the back). all it does is send all the force from the fall, through both bones just above the end of the bracing, and will break both of them with very high consistency. a small fracture of one bone at the wrist area is alot smaller problem than breaking both bones higher in the forearm. this wont happen on a lighter/slower fall, but if your skating at a decent pace etc, its going to really do damage. it has been posted before: http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...65&postcount=4

if you want to wear protection for your wrist, the best and safest style of padding u should grab is a 'slider', it is almost only a glove, that has a hard plastic pad where the palm and wrist join, and has lower friction, meaning it causes you to slide out, that was its just decellerating your fall.

after i broke my wrist the last time, the specialist actually said had i been wearing wrist guards, i'd of been in much more serious trouble. i didnt need pins, but had i been wearing wrist guards, pins would have likely not done all that much.

if your going to wear wrist protection, be VERY careful with the style of padding you choose. but that said, wrist injuries can be completely avoided very easily, just DONT THROW YOUR HANDS OUT FIRST WHEN YOU FALL!!! put your arm out and land more on your forearm or roll with your arms tucked in. hand first is always going to cause a problem, padding/protection or not.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 07:47 AM   #126
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Interesting testimonial on Hyper messageboard about Helmet safety, how one skater who was wearing one took a fall and still ended up very ill for about a month, and about the importance of using a good quality helmet that fits well.
Link: http://board.hyper-race.com/forums/t...osts=4&start=1
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Old January 26th, 2011, 09:20 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLace View Post
Bah! who needs airbags, when you have small children to fall on ( oops )

Seriously though, I'm wondering if a whole bunch of layers of good old bubble wrap stuffed under the splints would be just as effective.
Bubble wrap. That's freakin' genius! Underwear with a little insert for two layers of bubble wrap for tailbone protection. That would be cool. Funny looking, but good protection.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 09:29 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by online inline View Post
Interesting testimonial on Hyper messageboard about Helmet safety, how one skater who was wearing one took a fall and still ended up very ill for about a month, and about the importance of using a good quality helmet that fits well.
Link: http://board.hyper-race.com/forums/t...osts=4&start=1
Really? $150 for a helmet. Is that completely ridiculous, or am I out of touch? $30-$50 should do.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 09:56 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by online inline View Post
Interesting testimonial on Hyper messageboard about Helmet safety, how one skater who was wearing one took a fall and still ended up very ill for about a month, and about the importance of using a good quality helmet that fits well.
Link: http://board.hyper-race.com/forums/t...osts=4&start=1
Something to also remember is helmets are one-time-use items. You fall hard enough to wack your head good and solid that styrofoam insert has been compressed and won't provide shock protection in the event of another impact in that general area. 'Multi-Use' helmets should actually be called 'Novelty Hats' because they do not pass all impact protection testing.

Cut the strap on a helmet you've bounced off the floor and throw it in the trash. Or make a lamp out of it... Just don't wear it any longer. Go buy a new one, I'm on my 4th.

Even the expensive helmets top the charts at a whopping 50 bucks. Compared to the 800 dollars my roadracing helmets go for... Skate helmets are an inexpensive investment in me being able to tie my own shoes and feed myself.

Hell, if I thought I could get away with wearing a SNELL cert. Moto-X lid with a full chinbar while Reffing I would just to have the jaw/face protection since Refs don't wear mouthguards... But I can't figure out how I'd get my whistle to and from my mouth easy.
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Old January 26th, 2011, 02:22 PM   #130
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Bone density and bone structure are not the same thing.
Just sayin.....
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Old January 26th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #131
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Hi OnLine InLine
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Agree with Two Minute Mike.

Notice how the one poster to the link OnLine gave us was allowing the Styrofoam (Polymer - PolyStyrene) to be cracked or somehow not in the same condition as from the factory. Unless you have technical know how any mar, if seen visually, should be cause for alarm.

OK for the Sad Funnies (like a Dilbert cartoon): I mean you can't correct everyone even the most stupid unless you really see imminent danger. I mean you will get a bad Rap as a worry wart and then no one will talk to you.

Seen one family that I swear had more Duct Tape on their son's Helmet than Helmet: It was in doors and he wasn't really that dangerous so I gave it a bye.

Seen a good Derby Gal Duct Tape her Helmet: Now I got the Tape for her from another skater on adult night yet I really thought she was going to use it for her feet. Oh Well, I learned to ask next time.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old January 27th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
if your wearing the wrist guards that brace your wrist (eg. solid plastic on the front and the back). all it does is send all the force from the fall, through both bones just above the end of the bracing, and will break both of them with very high consistency.
This is just not true. The anecdote you posted was a malnourished girl who was vert skating. Look at all the broken wrists that have been posted about in various threads. Most of them would have been prevented by wearing wrist guards.
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Old January 27th, 2011, 01:45 AM   #133
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The ultradistal radius (i.e. the very end bit of the radius), is significantly weaker than the 33% point. Therefore shifting the force up to the 33% point is a major win, because the 33% point can take a lot more force.

Also the force is transmitted up a flexible splint, which mean it's distributed over a greater area, assuming competent design.

This goes doubly for those with any oesteporosis/oesteopenia. The ultradistal radius (together with the lumber spine) are the first places that density is lost from. In age, hormonal AND malnourishment based oesteoporosis. And if anyone here is playing the "be razor thin" game, be warned, that density can disappear *fast*, like in only a handful of years, even if one is still young. But, from my research, the 33% point generally keeps it's density fine.

BTW, For a while Domme Sharpe Merck paid for free DEXA scans for uninsured first timers. They probably still do. If you are curious to see how bad things are ...
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Old January 27th, 2011, 03:46 AM   #134
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Hi BlackLace,

I will read up top a bit yet would love to have you supply a link for this 33% point you discuss.

Now I shattered the one in my left wrist and as you know it grows back with some side spurs as it regroups.

What are the consequences, warnings, protections for older women past menopause that have to deal with the bone tip at the hip which as you write is losing density/fracture strength.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old January 27th, 2011, 04:58 AM   #135
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Still digging for my reference for that. was a cadaver study, related to airbag deployment IIRC. However, the fact that Smith and Colles fractures out number the other types of forearm fractures, gives an indication of where the weak point typically is.

You broke your radius at the 33% point or at the very end? With or without a wrist guard? Was it a backward or forward fall? A FOOSH, or a direct impact on something?
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Old January 27th, 2011, 05:05 AM   #136
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Hi MANY_SkatingDave,

Quote:
What are the consequences, warnings, protections for older women past menopause that have to deal with the bone tip at the hip
1) Consequences - easier breakage from less force applied to any affected bones.

2) No warnings - till breakage, unless you've been tracking the Bone Density thru testing - and that will not tell you just what force it will take for breakage, only that it will be easier for breakage.

3) Only protections are proper padding, and consistant medical treatment for the oesteporosis/oesteopenia and proper exersizing for increased bone strength.

My mother, and other's in my family have gone thru this mess, and it's a BITCH !!

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Old January 27th, 2011, 05:46 AM   #137
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I'm post menopausal, but not elderly (I'm 38). Been menopausal since I was 30. My personal research on oesteopenia/oesteoporosis would lead me to recommend for the post menopausal:

1) Estrogen

Must have sufficient estrogen, or there's unbounded bone loss. In real amounts too. The typical pissy little 1mg pills of estradiol are *useless* if your ovaries aren't making any the stuff themselves. Even 2 mg/day is too low to regrow bones. You need to have at least near puberty levels. And estradiol has a really short half life - around 12 hours. So you need to take it at least twice per day, or else you'll be running low by the time 24hrs rolls around.

Suggestions: (pick only one of these):
- 4mg of estradiol, taken as 2 doses (each of 2mg) per day.
- Oral contraceptive, with ethinyl estradiol (EE), 2 per day. Discard the 7 sugar pills if desired. EE has a long half life, so that's fine to take it once per day. Clots can be a problem on birth control, so watch out for that.
- Transdermal estradiol patches. No idea of doses, but again, make sure it's generous.

If your ovaries haven't given up entirely yet, then cut down the doses accordingly. E2 level blood tests would seem prudent. (but EE won't show up on an E2 test)

2) Vitamin D

At least 1000IU/day.

3) Magnesium

Without magnesium, you body can't utilise Vit D. And half the western world is apparently deficient in magnesium. It's hard to get in sufficient quantities in diet, largely due to phytic acid in food messing up the absorption.

You need *lots* of magnesium. At least 200mg/day elemental, 300mg would be better. Multivitamins don't have magnesium in this quantity typically, because the pills would be too big to swallow.

Typical obvious symptoms of magnesium deficiency are a) muscle cramps b) nervous adrenaline feeling c) constipation d) high blood pressure.

Work up to 300mg, because initially this will *really* fix item c.

Any form except the oxide or carbonate will work. The sulphate form (aka epsom salts) is particularly cheap, if you are a tight budget.

4) Calcium

Older folks need to take a soluble form, like the citrate, younger folks with good amounts of stomach acid, can get away with the cheaper carbonate form taken with meals. 1000mg elemental/day is the most you want to take generally, due to possible heart issues on bigger doses. Split into multiple doses over the day.

5) Load bearing exercises.

Essential. You don't get bone density increases without it*. Sorry. You need serious force applied to a bone to have any bone growth stimulation. Walking or skating won't cut it, even running is marginal. Barefoot rope jumping is recommended. You need 3G's of impact before the bones will even notice it.

For wrists, it's trickier. Tossing around a couple of 2 lbs hand weights isn't going to cut it. You need to be applying your whole body weight through the bones to put enough force on them. i.e. lift yourself of the ground. Stand between a couple of stools and lift yourself, or use an inside corner of a kitchen counter if you have one. Apply the most force that you joints will tolerate.

This is why gymnasts and powerlifters have kick-ass wrist bone density.

For older folk, arthritis/joint pain may make the application of enough force/impact problematic. Sorry, don't know what to suggest if that's the limiting factor.

There's also indication that one needs to vary the exercises, i.e. doing exactly the same thing over and over isn't as effective as applying forces in many different directions.

* unless you "cheat" and take something like fosamax.
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Old January 27th, 2011, 05:56 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLace View Post
I'm post menopausal, but not elderly (I'm 38). Been menopausal since I was 30. My personal research on oesteopenia/oesteoporosis would lead me to recommend, for the post menopausal.

1) Estrogen

Must have sufficient estrogen, or there's unbounded bone loss. In real amounts too. The typical pissy little 1mg pills of estradiol are *useless* if your ovaries aren't making any the stuff themselves. Even 2 mg/day is too low to regrow bones. You need to have at least near puberty levels. And estradiol has a really short half life - around 12 hours. So you need to take it at least twice per day, or else you'll be running low by the time 24hrs rolls around.

Suggestions: (pick only one of these):
- 4mg of estradiol, taken as 2 doses (each of 2mg) per day.
- Oral contraceptive, with ethinyl estradiol (EE), 2 per day. Discard the 7 sugar pills if desired. EE has a long half life, so that's fine to take it once per day. Clots can be a problem on birth control, so watch out for that.
- Transdermal estradiol patches. No idea of doses, but again, make sure it's generous.

If your ovaries haven't given up entirely yet, then cut down the doses accordingly. E2 level blood tests would seem prudent. (but EE won't show an E2 test)

2) Vitamin D

At least 1000IU/day.

3) Magnesium

Without magnesium, you body can't utilise Vit D. And half the western world is apparently deficient in magnesium. It's hard to get in sufficient quantities in diet, largely due to phytic acid in food messing up the absorption.

You need *lots* of magnesium. At least 200mg/day elemental, 300mg would be better. Multivitamins don't have magnesium in this quantity typically, because the pills would be too big to swallow.

Typical obvious symptoms of magnesium deficiency are a) muscle cramps b) nervous adrenaline feeling c) constipation d) high blood pressure.

Work up to 300mg, because initially this will *really* fix item c.

Any form except the oxide or carbonate will work. The sulphate form (aka epsom salts) is particularly cheap, if you are a tight budget.

4) Calcium

Older folks need to take a soluble form, like the citrate, younger folks with good amounts of stomach acid, can get away with the cheaper carbonate form taken with meals. 1000mg elemental/day is the most you want to take generally, due to possible heart issues on bigger doses. Split into multiple doses over the day.

5) Load bearing exercises.

Essential. You don't get bone density increases without it*. Sorry. You need serious force applied to a bone to have any bone growth stimulation. Walking or skating won't cut it, even running is marginal. Barefoot rope jumping is recommended. You need 3G's of impact before the bones will even notice it.

For wrists, it's trickier. But tossing around a couple of 2 lbs hand weights isn't going to cut it. You need to be applying your whole body weight through them to put enough force on them. I.e. lift yourself of the ground. Stand between a couple of stools and lift yourself, or use an inside corner of a kitchen counter if you have one. Apply the most force that you joints will tolerate.

This is why gymnasts and powerlifters have kick-ass wrist bone density.

For older folk, arthritis/joint pain may make the application of enough force/impact problematic. Sorry, don't know what to suggest if that's the limiting factor.

There's also indication that one needs to vary the exercises, i.e. doing exactly the same thing over and over isn't as effective as applying forces in many different directions.

* unless you "cheat" and take something like fosamax.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have been on estrogen since i was 15. I'm on a higher dose now at 30 than i was at 15. But what really messed up my bone density was being on steroids for a long time. Prednisone robs your bones of calcium. I broke a couple of bones when i was a kid like the normal kid injuries you are used to seeing. But it was embarrassing to walk around with a full arm cast at 29 years old. I've broken several bones since turning 25 than i ever did before 25. Women are at much higher risk of bone breaking during normal skating sessions without the proper gear. I've seen so many of them have to leave a session their first time skating since childhood because they weren't wearing any wrist guards. I feel like carrying an extra couple of pair to let people borrow who look the most prone to bone breakage when they are putting on those rental skates....
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Old January 27th, 2011, 03:31 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
if your wearing the wrist guards that brace your wrist (eg. solid plastic on the front and the back). all it does is send all the force from the fall, through both bones just above the end of the bracing, and will break both of them with very high consistency. a small fracture of one bone at the wrist area is alot smaller problem than breaking both bones higher in the forearm. this wont happen on a lighter/slower fall, but if your skating at a decent pace etc, its going to really do damage. it has been posted before: http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...65&postcount=4

if you want to wear protection for your wrist, the best and safest style of padding u should grab is a 'slider', it is almost only a glove, that has a hard plastic pad where the palm and wrist join, and has lower friction, meaning it causes you to slide out, that was its just decellerating your fall.

after i broke my wrist the last time, the specialist actually said had i been wearing wrist guards, i'd of been in much more serious trouble. i didnt need pins, but had i been wearing wrist guards, pins would have likely not done all that much.

if your going to wear wrist protection, be VERY careful with the style of padding you choose. but that said, wrist injuries can be completely avoided very easily, just DONT THROW YOUR HANDS OUT FIRST WHEN YOU FALL!!! put your arm out and land more on your forearm or roll with your arms tucked in. hand first is always going to cause a problem, padding/protection or not.
Fallen many times and never broken my wrist despite not being clever enough to plan the angle of fall, could it be the bad hard splint type guards that save me?
Was your specialist a skater ? I think I trust my guards more than his words.
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Old January 27th, 2011, 04:13 PM   #140
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Hi BlackLace,

Nice rundown.

My wife has been on the estrogen for more than 20 yrs now. She still has the oesteopenia, and I can't get her to exersize properly. So I have her pad up the few times a year I can get her on skates. At least she has given up the Horse Riding where she used to fall/get thrown during her Stadium Jumping Competitions.

Quote:
* unless you "cheat" and take something like fosamax.
She tried that for a couple years but had too many side effects to continue using it.

RedHeadRoller,

Quote:
Women are at much higher risk of bone breaking during normal skating sessions without the proper gear. I've seen so many of them have to leave a session their first time skating since childhood because they weren't wearing any wrist guards.
I see this all too frequently, plus the tail bone and ankle injuries.

Harold
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