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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old April 6th, 2018, 06:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by rufusprime99 View Post
I'll skate to that. Have been for 11 years now.
No ones debating that something bad going to happen to your skates because you don't use spacers. Of course they are fine.

The question is; are there any benefits? I think there are, but they are tiny at best.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 07:36 PM   #62
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YES! This is the point I have been trying to make. I don't even see a debate here, it just silly. It's like believing the earth is flat or just 6000 years old.

Obviously for spacers to work correctly all variables must line up, the shaft length, the wheels, the bearings, maybe the even the lack of a hard hub too.

I tried using other bearings with my Roll-Line skates, wheels and spacers, big fail, same result when using non-Roll_Line wheels.

The point is you can not buy generic spacers and expect them to work with different wheels, bearings (sometimes even the shaft lengths can be too short). The whole debate becomes an academic argument. There are no generic spacers (that will fit correctly). Period.

So the only question left is do spacers help on Roll-line setups, we already know they fit and are designed to work together. To be honest I don't know.
But they are currently the only skates in the world that consistently make them fit as intended.

Roll-Line setups don't turn on the shafts. No marks on the shafts, zero, nothing. This in itself is a VERY big deal. Just like a car or a bike you don't want the bearings turning on the shafts. Maybe "high end" bearings are pointless, but they are really pointless if they are turning on the shafts.
Yea, but the skate world has had that fvckin stupid "ABEC ratings don't matter" horse crap pushed down their throats for so long. When precision DOES in fact matter.

Rigjt now I have bearings in my skates that are inconsistent in width when the inner and outer races are compared to each other. A simple REAL ABEC1 bearing would NEVER have this issue.

The idea of it all is to bypass quality control, sell us an inferior product at a premium price. Garbage.

Also, good luck finding a quality bearing manufacture where bearings are start to finish made in the USA, and will make or supply to a specification a 688 608 or 627. Well may be if you buy 10000 of them.....

I'd love to make a skate comp that actualky dealt with precision parts. Such as axles made from stock with a trueness of less than 1/8th an inch deviation over 5 foot of length, and much close to .3142 so a real ABEC 3 could have that sought after fit none of us seem to get, but all want.

The excess play in 8mm parts reduces grip :/
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Old April 6th, 2018, 09:46 PM   #63
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Yea, but the skate world has had that fvckin stupid "ABEC ratings don't matter" horse crap pushed down their throats for so long. When precision DOES in fact matter.

Right now I have bearings in my skates that are inconsistent in width when the inner and outer races are compared to each other. A simple REAL ABEC1 bearing would NEVER have this issue.

The idea of it all is to bypass quality control, sell us an inferior product at a premium price. Garbage.

Also, good luck finding a quality bearing manufacture where bearings are start to finish made in the USA, and will make or supply to a specification a 688 608 or 627. Well may be if you buy 10000 of them.....

I'd love to make a skate comp that actualky dealt with precision parts. Such as axles made from stock with a trueness of less than 1/8th an inch deviation over 5 foot of length, and much close to .3142 so a real ABEC 3 could have that sought after fit none of us seem to get, but all want.

The excess play in 8mm parts reduces grip :/
"When precision DOES in fact matter."

I agree, precision DOES in fact matter to many of us. But in terms of skate profit and sales unless you're Roll-Line it probably does not pay off. More people are motivated my price and brand.

As for Roll-Line, I'm not sure how much value is there. Yes, the stupid things are built to very tight standards. But that's their "game", and you pay a high price for it! Roll-Line Italian bearing are $199.00 a set! I'll bet their cost is less then $20.00. The difference between Roll-Line and say Bones Reds or something on your actual skating performance is probably 99.9% negligible to zero. At some level we all know this (I think?). Maybe they last a little longer, yah... that's why I got them. Now I feel better (not really).

And you are right, a simple REAL ABEC1 bearing would never have this issue.

Seriously, I figure new shoe laces or a cup of coffee probably have greater impact on my skating game then spacers do. But it's fun to debate I guess.

But I agree, quality control is a problem, not just with skates, but with everything.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 10:10 PM   #64
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The point is, if you want precision you are going to pay a price for it. Setting up spacers on bearings is tedious, and if your tolerance is off be a minute amount, a tight tolerance bearing will die early. If you dont worry about the spacers, and leave them out, the bearings will find their own centers a most likely live longer... jmo.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 10:25 PM   #65
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"The bearings will find their own centers a most likely live longer..."

That sounds entirely possible, plausible to me. If my skates did not come with them I never would have considered them.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 02:04 AM   #66
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I don't use my spacers for anything but grip modulation.

But the better grip comes from more vibration dampening, and as a side effect at least on my axles, it keeps the wheel track straight and true, which reduces friction both with the way the wheels camber out, and how the bearings are kept on the same horizontal plane, instead of dipping down into the bevel where the threads are cut.

For my particular setup, the difference between locked down and 1/16th inch lateral play is HUGE.

In a plate/truck where the axle stuck has a 22mm straight shaft or no deviation in OD for at least 22 mm, the difference would be a bit less. Tho ugh you would still have a noticeable difference in the way tue skate would plow, t stop and hockey stop. That is IF you are a competent enough skater to do such skills on the fly at will. Most people cannot, so their perspective on the subject is going to be fundamentally flawed.

Like a car and a driver, if they cannot push a vehicle to its absolute limits, then how good is their actual perception of said vehicle? How informed of a conclusion coukd they draw from small changes? People will take offense to that, but the fact is, if they aren't in the top 90 to 95%, their take on many skate related perfomance modifications don't carry a lot of weight. Well at least to me, I'd rather find out for myself

Past all of that, even if they are a truely competent skater with astronomical skills... They may not be analytical enough to accurately give good feedback.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 02:14 AM   #67
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No ones debating that something bad going to happen to your skates because you don't use spacers. Of course they are fine.

The question is; are there any benefits? I think there are, but they are tiny at best.
Yeah. The benefit is likely small. I both applaud, but also poke a bit of fun at folks that want to squeeze the nth degree of performance out of a skate.

My inlines have spacers. But it makes more sense there. The relative thin frame needs the internal support of the spacer, so that the nuts can be sufficiently tightened down.
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Old April 7th, 2018, 01:16 PM   #68
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Default well done, very informative

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Yep, lots of stories, no pix!

A search of the forum yields little except tales, anecdotes and speculation about durability by many. I note that both Doc and DVW have and are running micros with no problem.




I don't buy that.

I've been skating the piss out of a set of Bont 167 bearings in Paco hubs for over two years now. Roll great! Very consistent from wheel to wheel. I've never even attempted to clean or lube since there is no indication they might need such fiddling.

As it relates to this discussion spacers between micro bearings would be very difficult to pull off. One of the reasons I think spacers are a fools errand has to do with the difficulty of getting the balls centered in the races. As long as there is some float they self center and roll smooth. Once you use spacers and lock the inner races down it's almost guaranteed that the balls won't be centered in the races. Spacers would certainly be a good way to destroy a micro bearing since the tolerance is much smaller.

As a test I compared side to side movement between a Bont 167 and a Bones Swiss 627 bearing. I fit a 1/4x20 bolt and nut through the center of the bearing and chucked the bearing in a lathe. A dial indicator was placed touching the center of the bolt head. A piece of 1/2" aluminum rod was threaded to the other end of the bolt with the rod through the lathe headstock. This way I could apply axial force to the inner race while rotating the bearing.



The upshot was I could displace a 627 inner race by over .004" while a 167 couldn't be moved by a full thousandth (.001"). I'd say there is no doubt these smaller bearings are considerably more precise and as such less inclined to tolerate installation abuse or misalignment during use.

So while it may be "common knowledge" that micro bearings can't hold up to quad use I'd put that right where most opinions of that sort live, in the land of bigfoot.

.
This R+D thats been going on lately by skateloggers is a great thing .
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Old April 7th, 2018, 02:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by wired View Post
Yep, lots of stories, no pix!

A search of the forum yields little except tales, anecdotes and speculation about durability by many. I note that both Doc and DVW have and are running micros with no problem.




I don't buy that.

I've been skating the piss out of a set of Bont 167 bearings in Paco hubs for over two years now. Roll great! Very consistent from wheel to wheel. I've never even attempted to clean or lube since there is no indication they might need such fiddling.

As it relates to this discussion spacers between micro bearings would be very difficult to pull off. One of the reasons I think spacers are a fools errand has to do with the difficulty of getting the balls centered in the races. As long as there is some float they self center and roll smooth. Once you use spacers and lock the inner races down it's almost guaranteed that the balls won't be centered in the races. Spacers would certainly be a good way to destroy a micro bearing since the tolerance is much smaller.

As a test I compared side to side movement between a Bont 167 and a Bones Swiss 627 bearing. I fit a 1/4x20 bolt and nut through the center of the bearing and chucked the bearing in a lathe. A dial indicator was placed touching the center of the bolt head. A piece of 1/2" aluminum rod was threaded to the other end of the bolt with the rod through the lathe headstock. This way I could apply axial force to the inner race while rotating the bearing.



The upshot was I could displace a 627 inner race by over .004" while a 167 couldn't be moved by a full thousandth (.001"). I'd say there is no doubt these smaller bearings are considerably more precise and as such less inclined to tolerate installation abuse or misalignment during use.

So while it may be "common knowledge" that micro bearings can't hold up to quad use I'd put that right where most opinions of that sort live, in the land of bigfoot.

.
Using these measurements, a setup will become much more precise without using spacers and by using the smaller bearings. Tighter tolerance bearings without binding from being locked down with spacers. You dont make a fitting of spacers issue. Thanks for taking the time to measure the bearings.

According to your findings
1. Tightest tolerance would be 167s plus spacers... most tedius due to extremely tight tolerances
2. Tight tolerance minus spacers. 167s no spacers. Easy setup, 1/2 turn out from snug. Self centering of bearings from vertical loading and vibration during skating.
3. Ok tolerance. 627s plus spacers.Tedius setup with spacers but looser than number 1.
4. Loose tolerance. 627s no spacers. 1/2 turn out from snug. Easy setup, long bearing life.


IMO, I like the second setup. But prefer the 4th. The tolerances in number 4 allow the wheels and bearings accomodate floor irregularities, the wheels dont have to do it all. This allows you to use harder wheels on less smooth floors.
On perfect floors, IMO, number 2 would be my pick.

#2 = less hassles, more precise, even more precise than 627s with spacers.

Again thanks for the measurements.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 07:35 AM   #70
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Jim park and maybe even Doc I believe were at Neville when my kid blew up a 688 micro Lewis. It happens. Same with 608/627, but the larger bearings don't fail under skating loads nearly as often. When they do its usually a cage failure more than a ball/raceways failure. Though I've seen raceways turn to dust before. Guessing it was poor materials on the inner race that wore away.

I'm not sure what the internal clearance is spec'd to be for the Bont 167, , though the Bones is pretty darn loose. I'm not surprised at the measurement taken. The only bearings that tend to be looser are FAFNIR with c7 stamped on them, and old Hartford golds(least the set I have is WAY loose)
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Old April 13th, 2018, 05:42 PM   #71
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I would have yo buy some small bearing wheels to see how well they work. I have a new set of 167s, been holding onto them for a while. Originally came with my bont inlines. They have plastic spacers to retrofit, not impressed with them.
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Old April 14th, 2018, 01:56 AM   #72
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Default The reason spacers exist

Fierocious gave my some really old wheels last weekend. On the Premier wheels, both bearings loaded from the back side. So the spacer sets the position of the back bearing.

On the other old wheels (no markings) the ID was machined very deep for the backside bearings. A spacer is required to put the back bearing into the correct position.

Today's wheels are much different. The bearings bottom-out against the hub. Hence spacers are not needed.

While the current wheel design is more convenient and cheaper, it is actually a step backwards in performance.

But this explains why spacers even exist in the sport. Even though today they are used incorrectly - just thrown between the bearings without being tight.

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Old April 14th, 2018, 03:22 AM   #73
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Yeah. The benefit is likely small. I both applaud, but also poke a bit of fun at folks that want to squeeze the nth degree of performance out of a skate.

My inlines have spacers. But it makes more sense there. The relative thin frame needs the internal support of the spacer, so that the nuts can be sufficiently tightened down.
"poke a bit of fun at folks that want to squeeze the nth degree of performance out of a skate."

I agree, it's rather silly. You name it, we debate it! I have not seen a big debate on waxed and unwaxed laces yet, but I'm sure it's coming soon!
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Old April 14th, 2018, 07:44 AM   #74
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[B]I agree, it's rather silly. You name it, we debate it! I have not seen a big debate on waxed and unwaxed laces yet, but I'm sure it's coming soon!
WAX ON!
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Old April 14th, 2018, 08:41 AM   #75
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Old April 14th, 2018, 01:00 PM   #76
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Old April 15th, 2018, 11:04 PM   #77
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I wreck micro bearings but main because my axles aren't great for the wheels I use, so I get something out of things like setting up spacers.

Also the way I skate benefits from certain things that others who don't skate as hard would never notice, or would not help them, and in some cases, may even be problematic(too much grip).

Bearings can modulate grip too. Qube 8balls vs bones reds for example, drastically different in the way they allow a wheel to vibrate and slide. So one needs to know the conditions of the equipments use and other variables, mainly the skaters use and skill levels play into this, so a correct setup is more controllable.

A stronger and more experienced skater can usually create a setup with more grip and retain the same amount of slide control, letting them skate harder and faster, and work to further sharpen high end stuff.

So it all depends. Lol
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Old April 16th, 2018, 12:55 AM   #78
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Default So many variables

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I wreck micro bearings but main because my axles aren't great for the wheels I use, so I get something out of things like setting up spacers.

Also the way I skate benefits from certain things that others who don't skate as hard would never notice, or would not help them, and in some cases, may even be problematic(too much grip).

Bearings can modulate grip too. Qube 8balls vs bones reds for example, drastically different in the way they allow a wheel to vibrate and slide. So one needs to know the conditions of the equipments use and other variables, mainly the skaters use and skill levels play into this, so a correct setup is more controllable.

A stronger and more experienced skater can usually create a setup with more grip and retain the same amount of slide control, letting them skate harder and faster, and work to further sharpen high end stuff.

So it all depends. Lol
Determination... or lack of to tune a skate for a specific rink floor and to a skaters preferences has a lot to do with it. Different floors, different conditions equals different setup. Conditions do change, a savvy tuner will have a backup plan if it does change. I applaud anyone making a serious effrt to learn tuning. It can be time consuming but the rewards are nice.
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Old April 16th, 2018, 02:29 AM   #79
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Determination... or lack of to tune a skate for a specific rink floor and to a skaters preferences has a lot to do with it. Different floors, different conditions equals different setup. Conditions do change, a savvy tuner will have a backup plan if it does change. I applaud anyone making a serious effrt to learn tuning. It can be time consuming but the rewards are nice.
No tuning needed for my skates. Well, I already did it if you want to put it one way.

I got shims on mine to take out the slop, protect the baseplate, brass press fit axis pin sleeves instead of the plastics, super precise. I sliced off some thickness of the urethane on the butterfly cusjions to give less ramp up resistance, and this also keeps them from messing with the shims during truck installations. This works great with the gen 1 cushions, since they have stabilization pins the cushions can't deflect off to one side or the other of the truck.

They are set up in a way where grip threshold runs a good line with the way they turn. All other modulation that people typicaly fiddle with in a traditional KP setup, i can do myself via skating adjustments or loosen/tighten the axle nuts to change grip characteristics. Even setting individual wheels to have more or less grip with a 1/4 turn.

Typically the grip of the setup I use is over the top for most skaters.

Thought dusty floors are always going to be an issue, but a softer wheel usually won't help much. Maybe if I was using a harder wheel , like a VFH assassin, I would want to switch down to my 95As. Most of my wheels are bald lol so dusty sucks for me. Nothing but a wheel with better ability to deal with the dirt would help.

Although on ultra grippy floors like Roller jam a VFH might be nicer. NOT that I need more slip tho. It's more like, I need throttled down, cause otherwise I'll push too hard with all that grip and totally wreck my feet lol
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Old April 16th, 2018, 02:58 AM   #80
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No tuning needed for my skates. Well, I already did it if you want to put it one way.

I got shims on mine to take out the slop, protect the baseplate, brass press fit axis pin sleeves instead of the plastics, super precise. I sliced off some thickness of the urethane on the butterfly cusjions to give less ramp up resistance, and this also keeps them from messing with the shims during truck installations. This works great with the gen 1 cushions, since they have stabilization pins the cushions can't deflect off to one side or the other of the truck.

They are set up in a way where grip threshold runs a good line with the way they turn. All other modulation that people typicaly fiddle with in a traditional KP setup, i can do myself via skating adjustments or loosen/tighten the axle nuts to change grip characteristics. Even setting individual wheels to have more or less grip with a 1/4 turn.

Typically the grip of the setup I use is over the top for most skaters.

Thought dusty floors are always going to be an issue, but a softer wheel usually won't help much. Maybe if I was using a harder wheel , like a VFH assassin, I would want to switch down to my 95As. Most of my wheels are bald lol so dusty sucks for me. Nothing but a wheel with better ability to deal with the dirt would help.

Although on ultra grippy floors like Roller jam a VFH might be nicer. NOT that I need more slip tho. It's more like, I need throttled down, cause otherwise I'll push too hard with all that grip and totally wreck my feet lol
My feet and ankles are usually painful to use when getting out from the ride home. Wrecked is a pretty good word for them, no blisters just worked hard.

My setup is done too. I may change the compression of the cushions a little depending on conditions but thats it. Got to work on my outdoor wheels in a few days. Cut down the 85s
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