S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Roller Derby Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Roller Derby Forum Discussions about banked-track and flat-track roller derby events, teams, skaters, and training methods.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 21st, 2011, 03:40 AM   #1
Rogzilla
Senior Member
 
Rogzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Morristown, NJ, USA
Posts: 708
Default Doug Glass weighs in on quad plates.

http://atomwheels.blogspot.com/2011/...d-present.html

Who wants to bet that these quad plates they're working on will be 19-degree ones? ;p
Rogzilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 03:46 AM   #2
Amefyst
Senior Member
 
Amefyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Oshawa, Ontario
Posts: 472
Default

I have to admit, it makes me question my love of da45s! But then I skate them and know why I love them.
Amefyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:10 AM   #3
rufusprime99
Ninja Naked Mole Rat
 
rufusprime99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: L.A., Ca
Posts: 5,874
Default

It seems like his timeline is off. First was xk-4 single action, then xk-4/magnum DOUBLE ACTION. Then he says, THEN in '85..... I thought DA45 was NEW around the END of 2009, not pre 1985.

He also states that certain plates were made with a longer wheelbase for stability in the turns. Really? A longer wheelbase gives stability on a straight, not in a turn.

I like this quote: "For roller derby it is imperative skaters are first and foremost stabilized on their skates."

Yeah, if you want to be the one BEING hit. Be stable, sit there and wait. If you want to be the one DOING the hitting, the hard leaning quick turning 45 plate is a better choice, IMHO.
__________________
Don't let people live in your head rent free. ~princessfluffhead~ BontQRL/InvaderDA45: Seba-FRX: Alkali CA9
rufusprime99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 06:18 AM   #4
Salamanda
Senior Member
 
Salamanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 2,382
Default

Hmm doesn't Atom have a quad plate in development? I wonder if it's going to be the 'optimal 19 degrees'. What other plates on the market are 19 degrees? And squirrelly action. Umm then tighten up the action or put on firmer cushions. See, no longer squirrelly..
__________________
"I guess there really is a fine line between gag ball and pacifier".
- Fresh Eddie Fresh 31/10/11-

Last edited by Salamanda; October 21st, 2011 at 06:54 AM. Reason: typo
Salamanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 06:26 AM   #5
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default

Next thing he'll try to convince us to spend $90-100 for a set of wheels with plastic hubs. Oh wait...
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:37 PM   #6
Gorilla
Senior Member
 
Gorilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburg, Kansas
Posts: 509
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufusprime99 View Post
It seems like his timeline is off........ I thought DA45 was NEW around the END of 2009, not pre 1985.
There were Imperial based speed designs in the mid-1980s. I don't remember them catching on.
Gorilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:46 PM   #7
Kennedy
Go fast, turn left
 
Kennedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Youngstown, Ohio, USA
Posts: 3,767
Default

Like I posted in the quad forum, but with less sarcasm....

Yes, speeds have increased over time. Reading the article, he correlates the increase of speed relative to the king pin angle and only the kingpin angle. He fails to comment about other areas of improvement over the years. Bearings got better, floor coatings dramatically improved, and lets not forget about all the huge improvements in skate wheels over the last few decades.
Kennedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:50 PM   #8
VioletBuckle
Most Ill
 
VioletBuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Memphis,TN
Posts: 191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poobah View Post
Next thing he'll try to convince us to spend $90-100 for a set of wheels with plastic hubs. Oh wait...
I was starting to think I was the only one who felt this way. I crush nylon hubs and pop the hubs out of the Atoms. For $10-$30 more, I can get a solid aluminum core or fanjets that are far superior.

I am intrigued by the idea of a 19 degree plate.
I've never been one to get on the da/45 train with everyone else. Fantastic for people who love them, but not for me.
I find them squirrely. I don't want my plate to do all of the work for me. I use my foot position, body, and excellent cushions/bushings to take care of the action I need. My feet, knees, shoulders, hips and toes are my steering wheel.

I look at the da/45 as an automatic shifting transmission...vs a da/10-15 which is to me more like a manual or stick shift transmission.
Personally I think a race car driver gets more control out of a vehicle with manual transmission vs robot car automatic. I think this is why I favor the Roll Lines over the Snyder da/45. I feel like my my body action controls the skate more than the skate is controlling my movements and body.

Then again I plan on buying the new SG Avenger in magnesium so I may eat my words here in a couple of months.

I would like to try this 19 degree plate. I like to try everything.

I'm hoping it will have a little more action than a 10-15 degree kingpin, but not nearly as much twitchiness of the da/45. I will say the da/45 Snyders are quite lovely and I may love them if I spent the big bucks and learned to tune them. Still a bit twitchy for me.

I don't like the idea of a longer plate. Longer plates are supposedly great for large oval or long outdoor track, but long plates do not equate to more agility and less skate lock scenarios in derby.

Interested to see what Atom has in store, however
VioletBuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 03:02 PM   #9
Fresh Eddie Fresh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VioletBuckle View Post
I was starting to think I was the only one who felt this way. I crush nylon hubs and pop the hubs out of the Atoms. For $10-$30 more, I can get a solid aluminum core or fanjets that are far superior.

I am intrigued by the idea of a 19 degree plate.
I've never been one to get on the da/45 train with everyone else. Fantastic for people who love them, but not for me.
I find them squirrely. I don't want my plate to do all of the work for me. I use my foot position, body, and excellent cushions/bushings to take care of the action I need. My feet, knees, shoulders, hips and toes are my steering wheel.

I would like to try this 19 degree plate. I like to try everything.

I'm hoping it will have a little more action than a 10-15 degree kingpin, but not nearly as much twitchiness of the da/45. I will say the da/45 Snyders are quite lovely and I may love them if I spent the big bucks and learned to tune them. Still a bit twitchy for me.

I don't like the idea of a longer plate. Longer plates are supposedly great for large oval or long outdoor track, but long plates do not equate to more agility and less skate lock scenarios in derby.

Interested to see what Atom has in store, however
If your DA45s are too twitchy, try some harder cushions... When I first got my XK4s, inception they were not twitchy enough, and going one step softer solved that... One or two steps harder for you might do the trick.
Fresh Eddie Fresh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 03:16 PM   #10
VioletBuckle
Most Ill
 
VioletBuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Memphis,TN
Posts: 191
Default

FreshEddie-

That may be the problem. Although I have found in past that harder cushions hurt my ankles and knees. The da/45s also have this snap back that I don't like the feeling of.

I have tried several brands and they all just feel like they are fighting the general way in which I like to skate.
IDK. Maybe they just aren't compatible with my style?

When I purchase the Mag Avengers I will be sure to mount them forward and and pick up at least three sets of cushions for playing with action
VioletBuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 03:33 PM   #11
elemental
I Whistle at Derby Girls
 
elemental's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: youngstown
Posts: 1,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VioletBuckle View Post

I look at the da/45 as an automatic shifting transmission...vs a da/10-15 which is to me more like a manual or stick shift transmission.
Personally I think a race car driver gets more control out of a vehicle with manual transmission vs robot car automatic. I think this is why I favor the Roll Lines over the Snyder da/45. I feel like my my body action controls the skate more than the skate is controlling my movements and body.
i would have dissagree wholy with this statement. with da45 you have to use MORE control of and with your body because the imputs you give are amplified with the action. the same imputs are needed, only if you give more than you need, you could get bit. i find 10-15 way to stable for my style of skating. but hey, if you like it who am i.

if your da 10-15 is a stick than da45 is a dog box.

as for the above article. it is just atom paying for advertising, which they definitly know how to do.
elemental is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:14 PM   #12
HK47
Roll Player
 
HK47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere near London
Posts: 4,311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elemental View Post
if your da 10-15 is a stick than da45 is a dog box.
Only quieter
__________________
"You guys better git some HEAD TRANSPLANTS QUICK! " ~ Okie
HK47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:15 PM   #13
Reserector
ameteur debunker
 
Reserector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Laurel, MS
Posts: 1,715
Default

Y'all do realize that you are allowed to comment on that web page, right? Why not take advantage of that opportunity and let him know how you feel instead of bickering about it here? Just saying...
Here is my comment in case you missed it below the article.


Doug Glass wrote: "19 degree doesn’t over-react; it remains under you and responds on demand."
I found that the most redeeming factor of the 45º is that it can be kept under you BECAUSE is reacts quickly.

Based on his very opinionated article, I wonder if he has ever skated any other style besides speed. Speed skating involves high speeds on a large oval. Roller derby has neither of those.

Maybe a compromise plate is overdue, though. Who's to say that a 20º to 30º plate wouldn't be a better fit for some skaters. With the populatity of roller derby, we just might see some plate development.
__________________
http://southernskater.com
Reserector is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:25 PM   #14
elemental
I Whistle at Derby Girls
 
elemental's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: youngstown
Posts: 1,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HK47 View Post
Only quieter
i officially have a derby crush on you now.....because of that comment
elemental is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:35 PM   #15
HK47
Roll Player
 
HK47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Somewhere near London
Posts: 4,311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elemental View Post
i officially have a derby crush on you now.....because of that comment
What can I say, I like to go fast
__________________
"You guys better git some HEAD TRANSPLANTS QUICK! " ~ Okie
HK47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:45 PM   #16
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,034
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reserector View Post
Y'all do realize that you are allowed to comment on that web page, right? Why not take advantage of that opportunity and let him know how you feel instead of bickering about it here? Just saying...

Because they cannot edit or delete what we say here??

Here is my comment in case you missed it below the article.

Doug Glass wrote: "19 degree doesn’t over-react; it remains under you and responds on demand."
I found that the most redeeming factor of the 45º is that it can be kept under you BECAUSE is reacts quickly.

Based on his very opinionated article, I wonder if he has ever skated any other style besides speed. Speed skating involves high speeds on a large oval. Roller derby has neither of those.

Doesn't matter. They are selling something.. If Atom put as much effort into getting their R&D before releasing something, as they do their propaganda we would really have something...

Maybe a compromise plate is overdue, though. Who's to say that a 20º to 30º plate wouldn't be a better fit for some skaters.

UH the 45s are actually 30 degrees.. it's a misnomer left over from the old days.. Roll Line Novitas are 20 degrees like the Ring... BUT they are expensive and have a tuning issue I don't like..as in the clicker at zero is still preloading the action quite a bit...

With the popularity of roller derby, we just might see some plate development.
You are absolutely right.. We might at that...
__________________
If you are willing to compromise on results, by all means, compromise on equipment. If you think you can get by, you most likely will...Just get by.
Doc Sk8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:52 PM   #17
Gle8
I'm Contrary. Moo.
 
Gle8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philly
Posts: 2,427
Default

The difference between a 45 degree (or 30 degree) and a 10-15 degree can be stated simply as follows:

You can make a 45 act like a 10.
You cannot make a 10 act like a 45.

So if you are buying one plate, which should it be?*



*Disclaimer: I, like many, have different skates for different applications. So I regularly skate 45, 19, 15, 10, 5, etc. However, the above statement still holds true.
__________________
-I count points.
Gle8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 04:59 PM   #18
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,034
Default Please delete

OOPS
__________________
If you are willing to compromise on results, by all means, compromise on equipment. If you think you can get by, you most likely will...Just get by.

Last edited by Doc Sk8; October 21st, 2011 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Double post
Doc Sk8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 05:11 PM   #19
xlracer
Senior Member
 
xlracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,135
Default Hey Doc

I read the article from Doug yesterday. I agree with you I think he is basing most of his opinion on speed skating rather that derby. That was the initial reason and rational behind the idea of the DA45 when you nad I first talked about it.
I do think a 20 degree truck would be a great addition to the market. The most responsive plate I have every been on that was also very stable was the Ultimate Dominator I got from you about 3 years ago. I think it was about 20 degrees and it was so nice to skate on.
xlracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2011, 07:01 PM   #20
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
Default What the angles mean - Understanding why DA45 is slower

I find it amazing how so many so called experts, even those with championship skills pontificate about what are the design & performance advantages or disadvantages of a given plate (or class of plates), without ever explaining WHY? Terms like "stability and "squirrely" do not give much indication of what is really happening with the plate dynamics, and why/how performance is affected.

For example, the number one potential design advantage "feature" of the DA45 plate, especially those that place the front axle very near to right below the center of the pivot ball, is that the pivot carries nearly ALL the skaters weight, and very little gets onto the cushions.

With most shallower action skates, no matter how loose you set the action with them in your hands, once you step into those skates and place your weight on them, the compression of the cushions get an immediate kick upward to a higher level. This means that the force needed to work the action also goes higher as well.

The flip side of this aspect of the DA45 geometry is that at the neutral position, it offers LESS available leverage to compress the cushions and initiate the turning action. However, because the DA45 gives the LEAST amount of skater-weight cushion pre-compression, this lack of leverage is not so big of an issue, and once the axle begins to swing away from being almost directly below the pivot pin, the plates available turning leverage for cushion compression and axle swing ramps up quickly.

In addition to this effect, we also have the fact that the DA45 action geometry produces further axle swing with less plate lean. As to this "feature", the analogy with cars is more like a race car having a steering setup that goes from full left to full right with only 180 degrees of steering wheel rotation.

So knowing how these aspects of the DA45 plate's design function, the question remains as to how favorably do they impact the needs of a quad speed skater. Well, those of us who skate speed know that ALL the best speed skater skate LOW -- VERY LOW. Most coaches emphasize this as being the number one requirement for improving your speed -- get lower! Why this is so critical is that the width of your power stroke is limited by how far your hips are away from the floor. The more horizontal you can get your stroke the longer and stronger your stroke can be.

So, knowing that the maximum horizontal power stroke is going to give you the most speed, how do the DA45 plate's features described above impact a skater with their leg going very horizontal and trying to keep all four wheels down? Well, the first concern is the that the ankle must be bending considerably at the peak of the power stroke in order to optimally keep all the wheels equally pressed down onto the floor while negotiating the arc of the turn.

Do the DA45's "features" actually facilitate this process, or do they compromise this process. In my view they perform poorly compared to a less steep action plate (lower kingpin angle). When your ankle is at the maximum bend point while your leg is also in the maximum horizontal position, the DA45 is demanding that you DO NOT lean it over too much as you steer the arc of the curve. It is also reacting with maximum leverage against minimally compressed cushions, which means as you try to deliver the peak push of your power to the floor, you have to really work hard to avoid over-leaning the plate. This means you are trying to keep your ankle LESS BENT over when the leg wants it to bend MORE.

A shallower action (steep kingpin) plate works much better than a DA45 plate at this point in the stroke cycle. It allows the ankle to lean more while still maintaining the proper arc of the curve. This allows the power stroke to go further outward, In addition, for any given amount of ankle twitch, the shallower action produces less turn deviation to take you off your desired track. The better level of cushion leverage and greater level cushion compression developed with the shallower action (steep kingpin) plates, at the peak push point of a power stroke, also makes it a lot easier, as max power is being applied, to maintain the precision needed for sustaining the proper direction of your skate without as much mis-steering or over steering of the plate.

As to the longer plate being better for speed, there is more to think about than just your left-right turning/balance. There is also front-back balance and how it affects your roll. It is easier to maintain proper front-back balance to keep your weight evenly distributed across all four wheels on a longer wheel base. In addition, when you do deviate from your optimum front-back balance point, which inevitably will happen at different stages in the cycle of completing a lap, the longer wheelbase plate will steal less rolling energy as these front-back balance errors occur.

These are not the only reasons that the DA45 will rarely be the choice of elite speed skaters, but they are the main reasons.

-Armadillo

.
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.