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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old February 24th, 2018, 09:52 PM   #21
fierocious1
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Do ppl actually toghten the axel nut all the way to the bearing now days? This is something i have never seen nor heard of from back when i skated alot and at many dif rinks. Everyone who was a “good skater” (those that could spin an do tricks etc) always left play in the wheel. Since no one used toe stops for anything functional, we’d essentially slide or drag our wheels sideways to stop and/or change direction on a dime even at speed. Worked like a charm but doesnt work if the wheels have no play. We all knew it was supposedly hard on the bearings but i font know of a single person ever that didnt get years of bearing life even from cheapys (myself included) so long as they maintained them regularly.
I just found the spacer discussion interesting as i was unaware anyone actually tightened their wheels enough for it to katter as i was brought up leaving them intensionally loose (and still do to this day with no issue)
Nearly all the older skates I tore down in the last few weeks used bearing spacers. They dont use locknuts at all. The torque put on the nut locks them in place so they dont come loose. The spacers are necessary to maintain the torque. Using nylock nuts changed things to where the torquing down of the nuts is not necessary anymore.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 04:20 AM   #22
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Smile I think it is important to put some dates to this discussion

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Do ppl actually toghten the axel nut all the way to the bearing now days? This is something i have never seen nor heard of from back when i skated alot and at many dif rinks.
When I started skating, the year was around 1967. In 1972 plastic coating floors was instituted. At this time a new type of wheel had to be incorporated to handle the new type of plastic coating being used on the skating surface.

The first type of wheel to be manufactured to skate on this newly plastic coated floors was the "ExCaliber". They were white and the bearing inserts were machined aluminum. The person associated with the machining process was Jim Heater. The size of the wheel was revolutionary. It was a 62 mm wheel.

To make the process of installing wheels on the axles easier, they started using nylon nuts to hold the wheels on the axels. They still used the spacers between the bearings.

To answer Abyss' question, using a nut to lock down the wheels hard against the bearings is an exception and not the rule.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani

P.S. My question is the variance in bearing thickness a contributing factor for determining the width of spacers used when trying to lock down the bearings hard against the spacers. Thanks.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 07:54 AM   #23
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what i do...on outdoor skating...

i always use spacers....
i screw my lock nut completely until the wheel can't turn and i unscrew it until the wheel turn freely...a minimum gap for the wheel to turn freely.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 07:54 PM   #24
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what i do...on outdoor skating...

i always use spacers....
i screw my lock nut completely until the wheel can't turn and i unscrew it until the wheel turn freely...a minimum gap for the wheel to turn freely.
So, basically you put spacers in but you do not use them.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #25
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Exactly... And when you tighten a wheel until it no longer spins, do you ever think of why? You are pushing the inner race hard against the ball bearings in their unmovable outer race (the one supported by the wheel hub lip), until they cannot spin. The you release the inner race by backing off. Basically, it sounds like the spacer length isn't right in that case.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 09:58 PM   #26
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maybe but that's what works better for me.
since 20 years i skate, you suppose i tried many things to obtain more of my skates.

i tried washers and worked on spacers ...sanded them witg small grain paper but the results in term of performance were less than simple use of spacers and the method i use....
my wheels perform better with an approximative spacer and a gap setted by the hand feeling.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 10:15 PM   #27
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the problem with our bearings is that they don't roll straight in the same direction..?you apply force with your weight and legs etc...wheels hubs and urethane deform the alignment...there are fewers force in many directions.

it's a little bit te same on front car wheels...you always screw the center bearings pack nut to zero lash and unscrew it...usually 1/4 of turn....your wheel must turn freely. the consesuence of too small gap is heat and destruction of bearings.

theorically zero lash works but the problem is that we dont talk about a perfect strong and balanced wheel of metal for example that turn with no exterior force on a perfect axle...

so for me you unscrew the nut until your wheel turn freely and longer time as possible by hand and you're near the best gap....

another thing i personnaly consider is that a new bearing out of package usually doesn't works at its top...it needs a breakin period...and always extract the grease and use oil. ...

again....i don't say people must do what i do ...it's just my experience on outdoor skating since 20 years....maybe it's different on a rink...we don't have rinks in my country.
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Old February 25th, 2018, 11:12 PM   #28
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the problem with our bearings is that they don't roll straight in the same direction..?you apply force with your weight and legs etc...wheels hubs and urethane deform the alignment...there are fewers force in many directions.

it's a little bit te same on front car wheels...you always screw the center bearings pack nut to zero lash and unscrew it...usually 1/4 of turn....your wheel must turn freely. the consesuence of too small gap is heat and destruction of bearings.

theorically zero lash works but the problem is that we dont talk about a perfect strong and balanced wheel of metal for example that turn with no exterior force on a perfect axle...

so for me you unscrew the nut until your wheel turn freely and longer time as possible by hand and you're near the best gap....

another thing i personnaly consider is that a new bearing out of package usually doesn't works at its top...it needs a breakin period...and always extract the grease and use oil. ...

again....i don't say people must do what i do ...it's just my experience on outdoor skating since 20 years....maybe it's different on a rink...we don't have rinks in my country.
One turn out from zero is how I set my gap. Always. Bearing roll great and last a long long time.
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Old February 26th, 2018, 03:59 PM   #29
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people always says that is not because a wheel has a long lasting that at the'end you have more performances but in fact yes because if the wheel is braking by something in the air....on the floor it will be worst.

1 turn seems ok for me...if you said 2 ...i was afraid...i would say between 1/2 and 1 is ok...but each axle, wheel, bearingd and spacer are all different....so ...a minimum gap with no wheel that brakes in the air is the best condition for me.
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Old February 27th, 2018, 12:49 AM   #30
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So much info in here is incorrect already. Lol

@ maltoch
If someone is using spacers in a wheel and they aren't super tight on the axle OR locked in place By a torqued down axle nut. You're litterally wasting your time installing them.

Pure urethane wheels(or any wheel without a Alu insert) dobt need spacers at all. They don't align anything. The outer races will move sligjtly with the hub as it seat and insects the bearings under load. The only thing you are doing is holding the inner races still while the wheel flexes, which actually causes more binding than not in this case. If you want the best roll keep the nuts a little more loose.

fierocious1 is correct on the old skates.

They originally did not use self locking nuts. So they stick spacers in there and used cheaper nuts to lock the assembly down so the nuts wouldn't come off.

Spacers, when used correctly, can modulate grip indoors. Increasing it with them engaged, or when the nuts are backed off 1/4 turn its the same as running without them.

The more slop in the axle to bearing fit, the more apparent this is.
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Old February 27th, 2018, 07:54 AM   #31
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Spacers, when used correctly, can modulate grip indoors. Increasing it with them engaged.
That's sounding a whole lot like 'magic' you're attributing to those tiny metal tubes.
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Old February 27th, 2018, 01:00 PM   #32
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That's sounding a whole lot like 'magic' you're attributing to those tiny metal tubes.
Nothing magicial about it.

With the right sized spacer in the middle and speed washers on both sides of the bearings the locknut can be locked, then, there's no "modulation" so to speak, there's no vibration, no side to side movement, the wheel will hook up better on an indoor floor, it's simply science.
BTW, spacers can be plastic, less weight, more filling

Spacers are useful if you're a competing figure skater, more exact turns for figures.
Spacers are useful if you're an outdoor longboard downhill racer, less "modulation" less loss of speed to friction.
Of course you want to use Bones Ceramic Bearings and Bones Speed Creme for ultimate roll

Or you may as well leave the locknuts backed out a turn and use throw away bearings, sloppyness is exactly like godliness, neither are magic
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Old February 27th, 2018, 05:02 PM   #33
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While there is really only a off/on setting with spacers where they dampen vibrations like wheel chatter and make a more solid setup, or lock nut backed off where they act as if they weren't there.

There is a point where you can just barely have them engaged which would cause slight drag on setups without them properly set up, and they still allow some wheel vibrations, but not completely dampened as if you had the lock nut torqued a bit more. This is why I say modulation, because theres more than 1 potential effect.

Although this largely has to do with how the axles are made, as well as the wheels hubs and bearings My axles have a dip by the threads, which allows significant play between the outer bearings and the axles on my Royal Assassins. Some wheels do not have as wide of a bearing seat, so wheels that use .270 bearing spacing and 608s sit on the full OD where the outer bearing on those assassins sits right at the dip. For the fanjet hubs I have there is really only a on/off setting, but for the assassins its more like off, half way, and locked down. All of which produce different feels on the floor , traction, and turning.

It's not that things matter or not, it's HOW MUCH it matters in a given setup. Sometimes it's so minute, it's not noticed

Wish we would start holding skate manufacturers to ABEC type standards(dimensional issues, like that of my axles) where they produce repeatable and accurate tolerances for our skate gear(well the expensive stuff at least)
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Old February 28th, 2018, 05:17 AM   #34
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Pure urethane wheels(or any wheel without a Alu insert) dobt need spacers at all. They don't align anything. The outer races will move sligjtly with the hub as it seat and insects the bearings under load. The only thing you are doing is holding the inner races still while the wheel flexes, which actually causes more binding than not in this case. If you want the best roll keep the nuts a little more loose.
Sorry Mort, that's just not so. Quite the opposite. In a wheel with no hub structure, the bearings will bind with very little provocation unless they're tight against a spacer because there's nothing to keep them aimed the same direction. Why do you think there were bearing spacers in the first place?

Plastic and later aluminum inserts sought to hold the bearings in place without the need for a spacer. Most of the wood wheels I've encountered had spacers installed, except for the ones with the steel inserts.

The large aluminum hubs commonly associated with racing type wheels are just an extension of those "inserted" wheels. Go look at the original inserted Huggers, or the Rannalli Pro Line or even the Fan Jet Long Mile.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 02:41 PM   #35
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http://www.google.fr/search?q=inline...=1519832266520

with this kind of inline spacer , we could do something.....i didn't remember if i tried...

it's possible to use 608 bearings..and redrill the inside diameter to 7mm...stock it is 6mm...that means only 0,25mm of metal between the axle and bearing ...drill must be very straight.
it's ok for peoole with axles trucks of 7mm ...people with 8mm axles couldnt do it.

there is another problem....there is 10,25mm between the 2 breaings inserts.,,it could work on 70mm and more wheels...they use 10mm spacers....some 65mm wheels use 10mm spacers but most of them are 8mm.

don't know if it is a good idea buu czn be a challenge.
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Old February 28th, 2018, 11:33 PM   #36
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Sorry Mort, that's just not so. Quite the opposite. In a wheel with no hub structure, the bearings will bind with very little provocation unless they're tight against a spacer because there's nothing to keep them aimed the same direction. Why do you think there were bearing spacers in the first place?
The bearings won't bind up anymore without spacers man. The fact of assemblies like that are the less play they have the greater the friction is when subjected to misalignment. By locking the inner races down this limits the available wiggle room and can increase friction. Also the fact that the bearing seat widths are poor in the tolerance department. So the likelyhood of even getting 1 correctly matched to the spacing is very low.

The weight of the skater and the fit of the axle to bearing inner race will keep the the bearings straight I promise. Every time the wheel is subjected to a side load, there's going to be a binding force. A bearing spacer isn't going to change that loading, even more so when the hubs aren't fused to the outer races.

Remember that you're only locking the inner races in place, and the outer are still free to move about.


Bearing spacers were originally made because a self locking nuts were more expensive than just a threaded nut, or possibly less available. So to keep them on just torque it down. Commonly spacers were made just a bit wider than the bearing seats which helped keep them from binding when assembled.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 01:48 AM   #37
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Smile An interesting bit of trivia.

I have a learned a lot about spacers through all these multitudes of posts. Some opinions I agree with and some I do not. Some opinions are given as fact and I doubt that seriously that their posts are accurate or true or correct.

But one thing I have learned is Roll Line Wheels have some of the best accuracies when dealing with manufacturing tolerances. And their spacers are machined as well or better than anybody else's in the world.

Did you know when you buy a pair of "High End" Roll Line roller skates, they come with spacers and nylon lock nuts to hold the wheels onto the axels. They do not come with standard steel nuts, like in the good old days. In fact, I doubt you could buy a pair of roller skates today and have them come with steel nuts to hold on the roller skate wheels onto the axles.

When you buy Roll Line wheels they do not come with spacers. You have to purchase them separately at an extra cost. Spacers only come when you purchase Roll Line roller skates! Why?

So, what this tells me, is when you buy a very expensive Roll Line roller skate, they want you to use the spacers supplied, but they don't want you to lock down the wheels real tight. I believe this setup gives the serious competitor an advantage and it suggested and supplied by the manufacturer.

And I assume Roll Line roller skates are some of the best in the world, their spacers unmatched and nylon lock nuts supplied provide enough force to hold the bearings and spacers in place.


Sincerely,

Larry O ...and I think only one other wheel mentioned in the posts recommends spacers and I'm sure this manufacturer expected you would you use nylon lock nuts and not standard steel nuts supplied, like in the good old days...lol!

So I feel if you are not using Roll Line wheels/Skates or that one other wheel manufacturer mentioned it really doesn't matter and would be a detriment because most wheels, spacers and skates are not manufactured to the high tolerances to use spacers and to get the added benefit if there was any benefit to begin with..lol?
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Old March 1st, 2018, 02:04 AM   #38
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The bearings won't bind up anymore without spacers man. The fact of assemblies like that are the less play they have the greater the friction is when subjected to misalignment. By locking the inner races down this limits the available wiggle room and can increase friction.
They absolutely will. It isn't about alignment and play as much as it is about managing side loading. Without some way of keeping a relationship between the two bearings, when side loads are present then there is increased friction.

PM me your address and I'll send you a set of Metaflex Easy Riders. Four wheels with spacers, four without. On the wheels with the spacers, crank em down snug. On the others, set em up how you like. Skate them and get back to me. Might be an eye opener.

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Also the fact that the bearing seat widths are poor in the tolerance department. So the likelyhood of even getting 1 correctly matched to the spacing is very low.
In a wheel with an insert or hub, that's quite true. That's why I don't mess with em for hubbed wheels.

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The weight of the skater and the fit of the axle to bearing inner race will keep the the bearings straight I promise. Every time the wheel is subjected to a side load, there's going to be a binding force. A bearing spacer isn't going to change that loading, even more so when the hubs aren't fused to the outer races.
Not when axial loads are present. Axial loads will be far greater than the radial load due to acceleration in the scientific sense, i.e. a change in velocity and direction (circular motion). With a spacer in place and tight, forces presented to one side of the wheel are transmitted to both bearings in essentially equal amounts. If that axial load is borne by one bearing more than the other, as in no spacer, the friction increases because one bearing is doing all the work.

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Remember that you're only locking the inner races in place, and the outer are still free to move about.
Go look up the tolerance specification of even a C7 rated bearing. It's far more insignificant than you might imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Bearing spacers were originally made because a self locking nuts were more expensive than just a threaded nut, or possibly less available. So to keep them on just torque it down. Commonly spacers were made just a bit wider than the bearing seats which helped keep them from binding when assembled.
Bearing spacers were made to keep wooden wheels from splitting. When wheels transitioned from wood to clay or vanathane or other composites, they continued to use them to provide the rigidity that the wood wheels provided. When urethene came along, it was far too soft to hold bearings accurately.

You're correct that nylock nuts were a later development. Prior to that, skates used a small 3/8" nut and D washer which was a holdover from looseball bearings.

And if you want to discuss bearing tolerance and binding, go roll a set of looseballs. The tolerance is far more loose than any precision bearing you'll find, and they roll like blessed thunder. Sound like it too.
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Old March 1st, 2018, 04:23 AM   #39
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Depending on the bearing seat widths it could be skewed for my plates, cause the axles straight shaft is too short. There's almost a full mms dip at the threads.
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Old March 28th, 2018, 10:45 PM   #40
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Depending on the bearing seat widths it could be skewed for my plates, cause the axles straight shaft is too short. There's almost a full mms dip at the threads.
Yes, I have experienced this too. I gave up on spacers (on most skates), tolerances are just too loose or unpredictable to be of much value.

However, so far my Roll-Line wheels I bought for my Roll-Line Energy plate all work great with the spacers they provided (they always come with spacers). I have never had this kind of success with spacers before. EVER!

I have 4 sets, all 4 sets were a perfect fit (don't know how much of this was luck). I am guessing Roll-Line has better luck with it because most (all?) of their wheels have hard hubs and the tolerances are just tighter. Everything was designed to work together. All my nuts are tight, wheels spin forever, no perceptible horizontal slack. I use a bench mounted bearing press.

What I like about the spacers is I can't see any rotation marks on my shafts. In other words the bearings are turning and not just turning on the shafts.

I have tried to use Roll-Line spacers on other non-Roll-Line wheels, it was a big fail. In my humble opinion the generic spacer is not likely to fit well, there are just too many uncontrolled variables.
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