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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old April 25th, 2018, 02:04 AM   #101
okie
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Default A Nickle. 5 cent piece

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
I like this guy's opinion, (Rockin-Ron) I suspect Rat Vision is under the influence of some advertiser or supplier, the crush test is to vague, and NASA has different results, I think I'll stick with NASA test figures.


We here’s what I’ve learned. I am a bearing engineer of almost 20 years dealing with miniature bearings for skate, aircraft, aerospace, and NASA applications dealing with all aspects of design, and ABEC specification. More recently my nephew and I started our own High Tech Bearing Company six months ago, Ok enough ********. The ABEC is the allowable tolerance. The ABEC 1 tolerance for the bore of a 608 bearing is .3150″ +.0000 / -.0003″.==== that means the Bore could be anywhere from .3147-.3150″ (8MM). ==== ABEC 7 is .3150 +.0000 / -.0002. (.3148-.3150) What does all this mean??? The Abec tolerance is all but INSIGNIFICANT in a skate application. Skateboard Truck Axels are not manufactured to the same tight tolerances as the Bearing. And the O.D. of the Bearing goes in a flexible urathane wheel. This eliminates any possible advantage of the Abec tolerance would give to assure accurate fit. The Abec is the DIMENTIONAL TOLERANCES. The Abec tolerance does cover out of roundness and for this reason I would use ABEC 3 or better. Almost any bearing with the country of origin on the bearing except for china will be Abec 3 or better. Back in the 80’s they had to sort bearing lots to get the Abec 3 and Abec 7 Bearings. Todays modern machines make to Abec 3 or better even if they are marketed as abec 1. They will have an Abec 3 price and a Abec 1 price to give you a choise, but it will be the same Abec 3 bearing. ANY BEARINGS FROM CHINA WILL NOT BE BETTER THAN ABEC 1. China will put “ABEC 7” or “FUCK YOU” on the bearing if you order 5000 or more!! No laws in China against that. You cant mis-mark the bearings in the other bearing manufacturing Countries. Bearings with a Metal Ball Cage have a 40,000 RPM Rating. Plastic Cage = 100,000-150,000 RPM.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT. 1) The Manufacturer. All Chinese bearings are crap. All those weird name brands are ****. Top of the Line bearing manufactuers make 608’s with the proper Raceway Curvature, cages and internal clearances. WIB, GMN, GRW and NMB manufacture the best bearings in the world for skateboard. For those of you not fimiliar with these names, WIB makes all the bearings for “Bones” All Bones bearings marked “Swiss” are manufacturered by WIB Miniature Bearing in Switzerland for Bones. GMN and GRW make all the German Bearings no matter what name may be marketet on the shield. Plastic or non-metalic ball cage will make more way more difference in speed than any ABEC change.
OPTIMAL BEARING: I have used everything in the world, Ceramics manufactured just for my SkateBoard, Abec 9, Bearings Manufacturered by every bearing company in the world. I have access to over 400 Lubricants in my field.
WHAT DO I SKATE ON ???
The best bearing by design right now is the Super Swiss 6 by Bones with SpeedCream. The Bearing had several advantages. 1) It is manufactured by WIB Bearing. 2) They are made with a tight Raceway curvature to avoid “Excess Axial Play” 3) They are supplied with a Re-enforced plastic cage rated at 150,000 RPM 4)Laberinth Non-Contacting Rubber Seals to keep out dirt. This is the obtimum design for free rotation and keeping out contamination.
Ceramic Ball Bearings are only good if they come with Plastic or Phenolic Ball Cages. As a Hardcore skater skating 4-5 days a week. Super Swiss 6 with Speed cream cant be beat. Fuc* the Abec rating. The Abec rating is designed so that the bearing has manufacturing consistancy in order to manufacture mating parts to simular tolerances. (Re: Precision Shafting and Housings.)
Ron

Oh Yeah
… one more note on why the Super swiss 6 has lower starting and running torque (This is Known as Speed to us skateboarders)
All 608’s are made with 7 ball compliment. The Super Swiss 6 is the ONLY 608 manufactured with a 6 ball compliment. The Balls all bigger, can take higher load (Impact), Have less ball surphase touching the raceway with 6 balls instead of 7 which lowers the running torque of the bearing making the bearing get to full speed quicker. I am sure within the next year you will start seeing more 6 ball designs, but right now its WIB(Bones) that makes ’em…At all possible, stick with German or Swiss with Plastic or non-metalic ball cages. Any bearing with a steel cage will be slower no matter where it’s made. Grease is just an oil with a thickener, the thickener in the grease will slow down your bearing and running just oil will attract contaminates from far away and not provide proper protection. Use the Good-old Speed Cream in the skate shops. By buying German or Swiss what is important is you will know the bearing is manufactuered by a very high quality bearing manufacturer who does the final raceway polishing what the chinese dont, and who it is. There are so many names and marketing stratagies going on with Chinese Bearings, you will get lost in it all. At my old Company we brought in Chinese Bearings for .12 Each. We had the Stamping machines to Mark the Shields. We did PIG,GIRL,SPEED DEMONS, and several others. All were from the same manufacturing lot with different color/marked shields. Any of those weird brands are probably a .12-.18 cent bearing made by the millions with no quality control and several key manufacturing processes left out in order to sell the U.S. for .12 cents.
Bearings marked “Thailand” = NMB
Bearings marked “German” = GMN or GRW
Bearings marked “Swiss” = WIB Bearing
Someone mentioned to me SKF Bearings. SKF Bearings are manufactured in almost every country in the world. SKF no longer manufacturers miniature bearings and hasen’t for over 10 years, SKF Contracts out their miniature bearings to the Miniature Bearing Manufactuers. Last year it was IKS and NTN. Could be someone different next year. SKF Specialises in Large Bearings. Don’t use SKF….
. . . . . .
Yes, the Bones-Chinese[Reds] are in the same class as the other Chinese Bearings. Bones China are may be a little better than the other China or unmarked brands as far as consitancy since they probably been using the same China trading Company for years, but still is a .12-.14 cent bearing.
. . . . . . .
On your third question the smaller balls tend to brinell the bearing races easier than the larger ball will. A brinelled race will have little indends from the balls impact, basically destroying the bearing. Thicker races will make the bearing a little stronger from the standpoint of cracking the races, but that should be a rarity. But Brinelling the bearing is more common than cracking races..Should be…
As far as Bearing failure, Brinneling is one reason, Lack of proper lubrication is #1 cause for bearing failure because once you run metal on metal and balls and raceways get scored, everything will wear and fail quickly.

As far as Oust Bearings…Its another Marketing Stategy. Look, it comes down to everything I said in these bearing post as far as the bearings configuration. Notice the low end Oust MOC5 is “Carbon Steel Cage” with standard non-contacting rubber seals. Their Rolls royce is the MOC9. Here is their desciption of the Seal “The Moc 9 Buna Non-Contact Seal is set into a U-channel design in the inner and outer races to keep all foreign particles out of the ball area. It also stops any oil leakage that might occur on a standard bearing seal.” THIS IS THE LABYRINTH INNER RING and seal weve been discussing that the Bones-Swiss, Black Hole Bearings have. The MOC9 also comes with a non-metalic cage….thats what makes it quicker than the MOC5. No matter what brand you like, 1) get bearings with a non-metalic cage 2) Buy the bearings with the Labyring inner ring and seal design,no matter what they may call it. Your bearings will outlast a dozen sets of the old style shielded bearings.
. . . . . . .
The Swiss and German manufacturers make their 608 with a tighter raceway curvature as well (harder to mfr.) than the Chinese. This eliminates a lot of excess axial play(end play)in the bearing.
. . . . . . .
….As far as installing, VERY good question indeed. You can ruin a bearing installing it before it turns even once on your axel. The Rule is “Only apply preasure to the ring being mounted.” To put the bearing in your wheel, some people put the bearing on the axel, unside down and press the wheel on the bearing. BAD ! The pressure against the balls can brinnell the raceway if hit with too much force. Since the Outer Ring is being mounted in the Wheel you need to apply preasure to the outer ring only! Not the inner ring. I use an Old bearing that I disassembled and have the outer ring only, put it against the outer ring of the bearing being mounted, and a small block of wood and rubber mallet. As far as removing them, another good reason not to re-use the bearings. The same rule applied to dis-assembly if the bearing is to be salvaged. However, there is no way of removing the bearing using the outer ring. Even the bearing pullers must remove the bearing by pulling on the inner ring. Brinelling will not happen everytime you mis-mount the bearings, but the degree of damage can be so slight, you may not notice. Yes, I use a bearing puller when removing bearings, however, bearing pullers were desighed for alot bigger, more durable bearings. Using a Bearing Puller on a Miniature can and will cause at least microscopic damage almost every time. Remember: Only apply pressure to the ring being mounted. Alot of people ruin their bearings before they even start!!!





Yes, the Bones-Chinese[Reds] are in the same class as the other Chinese Bearings. Bones China are may be a little better than the other China or unmarked brands as far as consitancy since they probably been using the same China trading Company for years, but still is a .12-.14 cent bearing.
. . . . . . .

High hardness. The hardness of ceramic materials runs from about Rc75 to 80, compared to about Rc 58 to 64 for steel.

High compressive strength. The compressive strength of ceramic materials is about 5 to 7 times that of steel.


Since silicon nitride ball bearings are harder than metal, this reduces contact with the bearing track. This results in 80% less friction, 3 to 10 times longer lifetime, 80% higher speed, 60% less weight, the ability to operate with lubrication starvation, higher corrosion resistance and higher operation temperature, as compared to traditional metal bearings.[20] Silicon nitride balls weigh 79% less than tungsten carbide balls. Silicon nitride ball bearings can be found in high end automotive bearings, industrial bearings, wind turbines, motorsports, bicycles, rollerblades and skateboards. Silicon nitride bearings are especially useful in applications where corrosion, electric or magnetic fields prohibit the use of metals. For example, in tidal flow meters, where seawater attack is a problem, or in electric field seekers.[12]


From Rat Vision, notice that nothing is specific, but everything is vauge, and the crush test say's the steel bearing crushed at 22,000 pounds, but the machine only has a 20,000 pound capability, every other study by engineers and NASA disagrees, I think Rat Vision is either taken out of context or just false, BTW, can't find the test on the Oust bearings anywhere, the bearings that Rat Vision "Tested"


Pressure Test

In Rat Vision's testing of ball bearing strength, a PHI laboratory press, model P210H-X1824, was used. Ceramic and steel bearings were tested for compression strength. The types of bearings tested are as follows:

The P210H-X1824 is rated to 2000 pounds of pressure.

1. Ceramic bearings: The ceramic bearings tested were the top-of-the-line product from a very well-known bearing manufacturer located in the USA.

What manufacturer and exactly what bearing ball.

2. Three separate brands of steel bearings, made in China, which are sold by American companies and found in most skate shops.

3. One steel bearing product manufactured in the USA.

No mention that it was supposedly an Oust bearing

The results are shown in pounds of compression:

"Top of the line" ceramic bearing shattered at ..................................8800
"Swiss made" steel bearing made in China split at ............................7200
The most popular steel bearing made in China failed at ...................7800
A semi-popular steel bearing made in China failed at ......................7700
The American made steel bearing failed at ....................................22,000

Rat Vision's findings show the steel bearings manufactured in the USA are far and away the strongest of the bearings tested. We should note that perhaps not all American made bearings will fail at around 22,000lbs. Our test proves that Swiss made and ceramic balls are not superior than steel.


Seems to be conjecture

So, in summation, steel cages...bad.
Steel balls gall, meld to steel cages, and rust...bad
Bones speed creme when cold is grease like, you can see it, when warmed up is slick, you can feel it...good.
Hybrid Cerbec Silicon Nitride bearings with exact precision tracks...good.
Stainless steel tracks or ball bearings are softer than steel...bad.
A NICKLE is 22MM od,this allows you to place the Nickel on top of your bearing and either pull in with a C clamp or tap in if needed.

5 cents worth. But: Beware the Buffalo/Indian head.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 04:16 AM   #102
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Default World's worst skate bearing vs Role-Lines Best!

I was at the dollar store today and they had one of those spinner things and I knoticed it had 8mm "skate bearings" in it (well, same size anyway).
So I gave them a buck plus tax and went home with 4 bearings.

So just out of curiosity I installed one on a skate wheel (not my Roll-lines, they use 7mm) and gave it a good spin!

Let me tell you that 25 cent bearing spun faster and WAY, WAY longer then any slate bearing I have ever seen! I'm really surprised, but I guess I should not be, that bearing was selected to spin easy.

My point other then just having fun is that how long your wheel spins on your skate past a few seconds means nothing whatsoever about it's ablity to perform on the floor and take a beating to boot.

I think because the spinner bearing is very loose inside, it spins a lot longer, but it was very noisy. My Role-Line bearing don't spin anywhere near as long but I can't hear anything spinning them
between my fingers, not a sound. On a skate wheel still enormously quieter.

I thought about mounting a full set of spinner bearing for kicks, but they might not take the load and make a mess on the floor, I'll bet they would be
noisy as hell though.

Anyway, I got my bucks worth of entertainment!

Spinner bearing is on the right.

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Old April 27th, 2018, 10:29 AM   #103
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Default

Most likely nothing special about the spinner bearings. The company bought tons of them in their order as cheap as they could. I would bet they are some of the same cheap bearings found in skates but having a much lighter lube to allow the spin.
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Old April 27th, 2018, 07:19 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
Most likely nothing special about the spinner bearings. The company bought tons of them in their order as cheap as they could. I would bet they are some of the same cheap bearings found in skates but having a much lighter lube to allow the spin.
I'm not an expert on this subject for sure, but I think the spinner bearing spins better because it's loose, you can feel the center part that goes over a shaft has play, hence the rattle sound.

It is not designed to bear much weight vertically. I mean normally play in a bearing is bad and will increase wear dramatically and fail much sooner. But in this case it's desirable and spins with less friction because there is less contact. Plus it makes a cool sound!

The Roll-Line bearing on the other had was born to jump and is surrounded with a whole lot more steel and is fitted really tight. It feels a lot heavier in my hand (and it's smaller!) I always wondered why many high end skates have 7mm bearing and I think(?) it is because they can add another mm of steel to the outer bearing wall to withstand the enormous repeated weight of jump landings. But I don't know.

If anyone knows the answer and it something else let me know, as I have always been curious.

And you may be right, maybe they do put these on inexpensive skates. I just
did an image search for Bones Reds (or swiss) and it looks identical. I am not saying they are the same, but yeah, they sure look the same. I don't have a Bones on hand, but I doubt they have all that play.

Does anyone have a 7mm bearing that's not a Roll-line? I wonder if all the 7mm's are made with thicker walls or if it's just a Roll-Line specialty thing.
I'm betting all the 7mm's are designed that way.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 12:31 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netplaceus View Post
I always wondered why many high end skates have 7mm bearing and I think(?) it is because they can add another mm of steel to the outer bearing wall to withstand the enormous repeated weight of jump landings. But I don't know.

Does anyone have a 7mm bearing that's not a Roll-line? I wonder if all the 7mm's are made with thicker walls or if it's just a Roll-Line specialty thing.
I'm betting all the 7mm's are designed that way.
I have Bones ceramic 7mm, and the outer wall is not thicker. There has been lots of 7mm discussion over the years, but Doc summed it up perfectly
http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=16288
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Old April 28th, 2018, 04:40 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by jotson View Post
I have Bones ceramic 7mm, and the outer wall is not thicker. There has been lots of 7mm discussion over the years, but Doc summed it up perfectly
http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=16288
Thanks, I just read what Doc said, it rings true to me.
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Old April 28th, 2018, 08:03 AM   #107
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Default About them axles lol

Reguardless of materials used....

Axle OD to bearing ID fitment is important, it will play a large role in the performance characteristics of a skate. More play allows for more wheel wiggle, and vibration. This decreases grip, but makes slide modulation easier.

On the other hand, a very tight fitting axle OD to bearing ID will reduce the amount of play a wheel has, increasing grip over a looser fit. But this usually makes slide modulation a little harder.

Spacers can make a loose fitting setup preform like it was tighter than the best 7mm bearing/axle combo.

A friend of mine has a proline(7mm), was new to skating, and had my 97A RBT'S on, using Qube 8 ball 7mm bearings. This setup has VERY little play. This gave the skate an "all or nothing" feedback to him. Either it had loads of grip, or it would screech and slide out on him.

The solution to make learning slides easier was to use axle sleeves and put on 8mm bearings. Giving a bit of play, which encouraged more vibrations. This greatly accelerated his T stop, plow stop and hockey stop learning curves.

Most people never give this approach if setting a skate up a thought. Or even a chance. We now need to get him some 7mm bearings to take that play out, or at least reduce it.

There are now 2 or 3 options for bearings to select the best performance, a super loose Hartford gold 7mm bearing/FAFNIR c7 , a slightly tighter "bones reds" , or a very tight Qube 8 ball. Each will increase grip over what he is currently running.

For me at least,... Bearings are more about grip and slide modulation/vibration dampening than "roll". Rolling resistances are developed a number of ways, and the counter attack against them is not always the same bearing choice for every application.

Edit

Spinner bearings... don't use them in skates, even in a pinch. They will disentigrate FAST. The guy I spoke of in this post used one because we lost a bearing one day somehow. Well it died half way through that session. Didnt last 3 hours.
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Old April 29th, 2018, 08:08 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Bearings are more about grip and slide modulation/vibration dampening than "roll". Rolling resistances are developed a number of ways, and the counter attack against them is not always the same bearing choice for every application.
Very interesting post, these are aspects of a bearing that are not talked about much by the skate community or the manufacturers. I just might try a set of the Hartford Gold 7mm to see if there really is a appreciable difference in the way they feel. It makes sense it would. Interesting insight, point of view, thanks for the post.
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Old May 1st, 2018, 07:12 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by netplaceus View Post
Very interesting post, these are aspects of a bearing that are not talked about much by the skate community or the manufacturers. I just might try a set of the Hartford Gold 7mm to see if there really is a appreciable difference in the way they feel. It makes sense it would. Interesting insight, point of view, thanks for the post.
I don't know if they are all the same as the ones I have, the easiest way is get some cheap 8mm bones reds and some "axle sleeves". Many times the local rinks have sleeves, they're pretty cheap, or should be.
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