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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old January 24th, 2017, 06:01 PM   #21
Sir Aaron
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I'm buying new skates. I've decided on everything but the size...LOL.

The Dance and Ring frames are the same except one has a toe stop. The Energy, Mistral, Mariner's Cup, and Variant M are nearly identical except for the metal used. The Mariner's Cup and Variant come with rubber cushions and the Variant doesn't have click action. But they have the same degree kingpin online the Dance. The Matrix is kinda an oddity. The front and back are different. Not sure if it is the kingpin or just the cushions and hangar. The Matrix definitely has a lower geometry.

I met with a Roll Line rep from Italy once. He was reluctant to write the angles down for me. I keep asking SkatesUS because I can never remember. All I can remember is that most of the frames have the same geometry while the dance/ring are more aggressive. The other ones are all a bit unusual. John Bircham, who I spoke with extensively, uses the evo...but either he or Lorenzo broke it while we were in Orlando.

I use ceramic bones for figures. The longevity and free roll are superior to the regular bones. So I use regular for general use/all purpose and ceramic for dance and figures.
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Old January 26th, 2017, 08:33 AM   #22
BlondeWitch
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I spoke with a female skater who answered the phone at Roll Line. She told me that the Dance plate has a 30 degree angle.

I remember a post somewhere on this forum awhile ago where someone measured the angles of many of the Roll Line plates.

Sir Aaron, do you feel a difference skating dance with the bones ceramics vs. the regular bones swiss?
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Old January 26th, 2017, 05:50 PM   #23
Sir Aaron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlondeWitch View Post
I spoke with a female skater who answered the phone at Roll Line. She told me that the Dance plate has a 30 degree angle.

I remember a post somewhere on this forum awhile ago where someone measured the angles of many of the Roll Line plates.

Sir Aaron, do you feel a difference skating dance with the bones ceramics vs. the regular bones swiss?
I think SkatesUS told me that dance was 30 and most of the other frames were 15? I need to see if I can find my notes. The weird ones were the Spin, Matrix, Evo.

As to the bearings, yes, I feel a difference. Not at first, but over time. The ceramics seem to hold up better over time. That is they give me longer free roll (which I'm defining as the roll I get after a single push) than the regular after a great deal of usage. I have 12 pairs of skates between my family and in general, the ceramics tend to last much, much longer. I've also noticed on the figure skates I coach (I only help with figures), the ceramics tend to give a much longer roll. The difference seems quite stark as soon as the switch is made. So much so that I don't recommend them to new skaters since I think it can give bad habits.

You can also pay Bones $100 to rebuild the Swiss bearings which I've done.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 06:26 AM   #24
RlrSk8r
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Hey BlondeWitch
I've listened to people talking about plates for years and have tried so many of them.
I sk8d on Snyder Supers for a while and then Imperials but since I was selling Atlas at the time (pro shop/sporting goods store) my (then) wife suggested I sk8 on Atlas. I tried them and while they were ok, I decided to go back to my old Snyder Imperials. I've sk8d on them for over 30 years. Also they are mounted WRONG. Well, wrong for anybody else, but they were right for me, bcuz I experimented with many things and settled on a mounting that is 1/4" off center. I'm sure neither you nor anybody else could sk8 on them bcuz they are so radically mounted.
Also, my sk8s started life as a size 12 Super. They had 4 broken hangers, which I removed and replaced with Imperial hangers with nylon pivot pin cups. I cut the back end off the plate to make them into a size 6. (Go ahead and call me strange)
I got many comments on my "old" sk8s and several years ago a fella came up to me as I came off the floor at regionals. He asked what sk8 I was on - Imperials.
He exclaimed "Oh, that's O-O-O-OLD OBSOLETE sixty's technology. You NEED to get something modern".
So I asked him, "If I get some of those new-fangled rollERline plates, will that make me sk8 better ?!?"
PRICELESS LOOK on his face, he said, "Forget I said anything about it. I can't beat you, anyhow !" He turned and walked away and didn't speak to me for the next couple years. I've won 3 national (dance) championships and lost count of how many silver and bronze medals at the nationals, all on those (OLD OBSOLETE 60's technology) Franken-Imperials.
The Imperial is the high performance sports car of dance sk8s. The rollERline has TRIED to copy the performance/feel of it. Yes, it comes close.
Just close....
Also, I had manufactured a set of light weight imperial plates - thin aluminum plate, titanium axles and king pins, aluminum lock nuts, no jump bar (it's steel), no toe stop, and while it functioned just like the heavy-weight Imperial, the reduced weight of it translated into just a bit more floor speed - the lighter the assembly, the faster you can move your foot to PUSH. I had this combination under the RISPORT boot, which was 3 or 4 ounces lighter than the Reidell I'd been using. The advantage of overall weight reduction helps. However, the wheels are HEAVY (someone needs to make a wheel with a BIG light-weight plastic hub and a very thin tire. The tire is the heavy component of the wheel), the bearings are heavy so use those small bearings [which, by the way, are not all that durable], and the leather boots are heavy, too. So the combination of the light Edea/Risport boot and rollERline plate is a reasonable improvement. However, the total weight of the assembly is only about 6 or 8 ounces lighter, total. Overall, not much, when you consider one sk8 weighs close to 4 Lbs. The wheels/bearings need to be lightened a LOT !
Well, last year at the nationals I broke down and got a set of those new-fangled rollER line dance plates (at the urging of my dance partner) and, while they are OK, I'd rather be on my (OLD OBSOLETE 60's technology) Imperials.
People talk about "LOW Center of Gravity". Look at how close the wheels are to the plate (and the nuts holding the plate on the screws) and think about how far you can tilt the plate before it hits the wheels. (I've had grooves from the screws in my wheels in some of the experiments I've done in the past. I KNOW how far one can press an edge and still clear the hardware)
The Imperial sits only about 1/10 inch higher than that rollERline plate. Not enough for the average sk8r to feel.
There are those who claim one plate doesn't give them the "stability/feel" of other plates. I suggest they haven't used them long enough to adjust to the cushion sets they have.
.
And the Atlas was THE biggest marketing scam ever perpetrated on the sk8ing community. Yes, it was faster to respond to an edge change, but with a simple change of the locking nut and cushions on the Snyder Super, it could have performed as well as the Atlas. I'm also amazed that Charlie Snyder never went to the NYLON PIVOT PIN CUP, as Atlas used.
You can put a Snyder truck on the Atlas and put an Atlas truck on a Snyder Super. Not many people realize that. They are the same design. The only difference is that the Super has a 15* king pin while the Atlas measured out to 17*. Yes, that would make it a bit more responsive. But then, on the figure circles, correcting your misteaks faster would also translate into MAKING misteaks FASTER, too. (pay me now, or pay me later, so to speak)
While I have a set of dance plates, I haven't measured the angle of the king pin.
Yet.
Nor have I checked the overall dimensions of the truck to see if it's similar to the Super/Atlas.
Not that I really care, since I'm torn between it and the Imperial. I'd like to go back to my Imperial, just for sh8s and grins.
.
As Rick said, adjust your cushions and "get used to them" ! I sk8 on a set of soft urethane cushions adjusted so LOOSE that the trucks dangle/wobble. When I push on the sk8, I don't want it pushing back/resisting me. It should go WHERE I WANT !
Today's equipment is good enough that not many people can REALLY tell the difference between 'this sk8' and "that one". If they say they dislike one, ax them WHY. MAKE them describe WTF it is they don't like. Most of the time they will not be able to articulate EXACTLY why/what they dislike about a particular platform.
Wheels are a totally different subject - ROLL, TIGHT, WEAR, etc.
I've sk8d on Bones 101's and then 103's since they first came out. They are good, but when the floor is a bit slick, I use the 40 caliber Complicatedxxxx Oops, 40 hardness white Komplex Bolero. Not only do they roll well, they are TIGHT !
Yes, equipment means something, but it's not everything. YOU have to do the work.
I sk8 on a set of wheels for 3 and 4 years and do not round the edges off or put flats on them. That's bcuz I don't DRAG THEM TO SLOW DOWN ! Watch people and listen to them complain how they get FLAT spots on their (soft/bad/defective) wheels. You will see that they drag them to slow down. They will say that they DON't do that. Call them out every time you see them doing it. I've done that many times in the past. It pisses them off. I even had one 70-year old fart claim flats bcuz he pushed SO HARD and wanted me to replace his wheel bcuz it was bad. YEAH, Ri-i-i-ight.
What counts is that YOU learn how to do the FUNDAMENTAL BASICS and then stick to what is right, and feels good to you.
Then practice til you can do it right.
.
Some people practice so they can get it right.
.
Champions practice til they CAN'T DO IT WRONG !
.
Now go practice some more....
.
Not "5 minutes" and then BS, for half hour with someone who happens along.
PRACTICE for a half hour.
.
And then practice for ANOTHER HALF HOUR !
Wear yourself out !
NO BS ! You've paid a lotta $$$$ to sk8 on the floor. GET YOUR MONEY'S WORTH ! BS at the cafe AFTER you remove your sk8s.
.
BTW, I always sk8 my dances with one big stop and I only/always use it to STOP. It never gets in my way. I make sure of that.
.
.
One other thing - your boot must FIT your foot ! But that's another completely different story which I could spend much time on and most people wouldn't be interested in WTF I know about boot fit. Even CUSTOM BOOTS don't fit your foot properly. I've had several and always had to make custom orthotics to finalize the fit. Can you say "EXCESS VOLUME" inside the boot ? MANY years of making and fitting MY custom orthotics to MY foot to allow the foot to control my boot/plate.

Cheers, and hope you sk8 well.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 11:31 AM   #25
rwsz
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good post and to the point, get a well fitted boot and about any plate will do as long as it is adjusted for you and mounted for u, i mostly mounted skates 1/4 off the center front stitch and that worked well for everybody i did it for. some people like loose trucks and i seem them so tight for freestyle skaters u couldnt move them with your hand lol. the action can be quick and cause mistakes as you say.
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Old May 1st, 2017, 02:48 PM   #26
RlrSk8r
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Rick
I mounted my plates 1\4" off both front and rear to take full advantage of the weight distribution. It worked for me and I got some interesting comments on them.
For a halloween party I had to put on someone else's white figure sk8s as part of my costume. Hard cushions that were SO TIGHT that the sk8 would only sk8 a FLAT ! Her theory was that reduced subcurves. Well, yeah. Flawed theory, IMO. My cushions were so loose that, if I could do them, I'd have been able to sk8 loops yet I was able to sk8 a pure edge with no subcurves on the big circles. Tho I never took a placement at nationals, every time I went, I made finals in the adult events.
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Old May 2nd, 2017, 11:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RlrSk8r View Post
Rick
I mounted my plates 1\4" off both front and rear to take full advantage of the weight distribution. It worked for me and I got some interesting comments on them.
For a halloween party I had to put on someone else's white figure sk8s as part of my costume. Hard cushions that were SO TIGHT that the sk8 would only sk8 a FLAT ! Her theory was that reduced subcurves. Well, yeah. Flawed theory, IMO. My cushions were so loose that, if I could do them, I'd have been able to sk8 loops yet I was able to sk8 a pure edge with no subcurves on the big circles. Tho I never took a placement at nationals, every time I went, I made finals in the adult events.
even the back, now that is different but i guess it made the inside edges easier. i never seen the back other then dead center but i have seen it forward a bit. a lot of figure skaters tighten their cushions and loosen them for loops though. whatever works lol. always fun to make finals even if u dont place. u get to skate again.
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 02:55 AM   #28
RlrSk8r
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[QUOTE=rwsz;725579]
[SNIP] made the inside edges easier.

Rick, YOU GET IT ! (But, then you've been around long enough to know many of the tricks and advantages) Where's most of the weight ?
This has worked for me for quite a few years. Watch (too) many of the sk8rs and you see they do good OF but sk8 flats (or, at least flatter) when they go onto the other foot.

[SNIP] a lot of figure skaters tighten their cushions and loosen them for loops

No reason to tighten them for long figs if you have an exercize program for figs. But most people are simply too lazy to do something like that. It isn't that hard. Nor time consuming.
I can't begin to count the number of people who commented on how loose (they'd see) my trucks were but they also marveled at how pure an edge I sk8d on them, doing esquire figures, back when the sk8rs were staged at the rail before being judged. They'd see me flexing my trucks as I waited to compete.

[SNIP] always fun to make finals even if u dont place. u get to skate again

AGAIN !
That's why I never wanted to sk8 GOLDEN. You pay the same entry fee but you ONLY GET TO SK8 TWO dances - I want my money's worth !
(entry for GOLDEN should be 2\3 of the other entries; after all, we're on FIXED INCOMES !) And, now they won't let me sk8 against people young enough to be my sons. They told me I have to sk8 GOLDEN, now.
I say they have their heads up

in the "wrong place".
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 11:04 AM   #29
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today and a number of years back skaters have had different skates for figures and loops and even dance. most of them had 2 to 3 pairs. my son had only freestyle and used them for everything but he only competed in singles. he hasnt skated since 2006. but he used the same plate and cushions and wheels with toe stops in to mess around with figures and dance.

many times he only skated once at a meet or twice when he moved up with short and long programs. i know what u mean by getting your moneys worth for the meet and the travel and cost involved. have fun
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 05:44 PM   #30
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Hi Rick,
I only skated on one pair of skates for all my competitions. 220 boot and Super Deluxe plates and I had my trucks tight. I could move them with my hand but not easily. I never adjusted them between events or practice. Nice thing about it was that I always knew how much pressure to apply and how much to lean at all times. Worked well for me.
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