S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Quad Roller Skating Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 6th, 2017, 01:36 AM   #1
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,197
Default a theory..

skating my da45 skates and making very little adjustment to them has benefits over a long period of time. after recovering from a broken foot I had to skate a while to get back up to my old level of skating. I started with the new plates I machined but using sg da 45 trucks. as we know you can make a plate but you are still primarily bound by truck design/parameters. meaning you can adjust the suspension but must stay close to the correct angles or you will have really twitchy plate or you can have a plate that will not turn quick enough. you must stay between these two ends of the adjustment range. In this area of adjustment you can play a bit. now when I came back from injury, I skated a little more conservative and set the plates up for that, meaning no really low skating. I did not want to damage my foot again. Setting the plates for this meant that the plate lean angles were not as extreme as I normally would have. In the last couple of I have been skating lower and much more aggressively. As a result I have been having some kickback at the end of the push/stroke.

So my theory is that the different skate plates out there play in the different ends of this caster range. That is why some people like one plate over another, it depends on where in the range the caster falls or is designed into the plate. How low the skater is during their push and how long their stroke on the floor I believe has a direct bearing on which plate a person will choose if tuning is what they do. Otherwise they just go out and spend money... on what they said.

I know that I had trouble liking any plates in the past that were of the non-da45 type.. I skated lower and could not get the ill handling out that comes in at the end of the stroke. I did everything I could think of to remove the kickback that sometimes occurs from the front trucks when you lift the skate off the floor. It can almost spin a person around when it happens. The lower I skated the worse it could get and catch you off guard. I found that this could be tuned out with DA45. The problem is that when you tune one thing out, you can tune something you need out as well. You don't need the kickback, but you do need a plate that resists your push so you will have a footing to push against. Speed depends on the resistance of the skate so you can go faster and accelerate.

The DA45s can tune this part, remove the kickback at a low skating stance/longer stroke without giving up the resistance you need to have to accelerate.

Most speed plates of the non-da45 type are much more of a "fixed or stable caster setting". Common skates, like rink quads are usually very tight, but the fact is because of design, no matter how tight the trucks are caster is fixed and negligible caster deviation is the result of the design of these plates.
The DA45 plates caster can be manipulated in several ways, sort of like a multiple angle adjustments through the plate lean input vs output angle. However, it takes TIME to get what you want out of your DA45 plates. What suits me might not suit anyone else.

Anyway last weekend I decided to remove one thin shim from my front trucks only(the rear trucks were not shimmed). I felt that since the kickback had been getting more pronounced, it was time to tame it down a bit. No other changes were made, just removal of one washer, kickback gone, but I still had the resistance needed(like climbing stairs, resistance). Two things contributed to the change, the grip in the rink has increased(better traction, more aggression) and my foot is fully healed and lets me skate much faster again.

ON the opposite side of this is that DA45 tuning is can be more complex. DA45s can be harder to tune and you must understand that using different cushion hardnesses above and below the truck can affect overall how well the plates work.


PS, we need something to argue over... LOL Way to quiet in here lately!!
fierocious1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2017, 09:04 AM   #2
quantoo
Senior Member
 
quantoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,697
Default i dont go that far into it ferociuos ,but

I just run white khiros top and bottom and my skates are doing what i want.
Im certain if i took the time and some of your advise i could improve the handling of 45's ,its a bad case of i dont know what im missing out on.
I do agree that non 45's dont agree with me.But the only other thing i really want is lightness.Im not going out of my way to spend more on skates till i get my other slow nmoving projects finished.
quantoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #3
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantoo View Post
I just run white khiros top and bottom and my skates are doing what i want.
Im certain if i took the time and some of your advise i could improve the handling of 45's ,its a bad case of i dont know what im missing out on.
I do agree that non 45's dont agree with me.But the only other thing i really want is lightness.Im not going out of my way to spend more on skates till i get my other slow nmoving projects finished.


If you want lightness and da45, get an arius.

Platinum version then special request gen 1 cushions instead of the split style cushions. Soft ones at that.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2017, 03:36 PM   #4
amohrfeld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 182
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
PS, we need something to argue over... LOL Way to quiet in here lately!!
Agreed.

I finally mounted my Snyder Royals. So I can actually talk about something other than my cobbled together plates.

I assume you are talking about the front left-most wheel. I don't think there is any way to remove all the resistance out of this wheel when crossing. I'll still argue that going to a longer cushion will help reduce the bottom-out effect. My "groove" plates should be done in a few weeks so I can test this theory.. sort of - I made other changes also.

My current complaint with stock DA45 plates is wheel wobble when doing dance moves. Really hoping my cushion strategy dampens the movement more.
amohrfeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2017, 10:43 PM   #5
quantoo
Senior Member
 
quantoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,697
Default They would'nt suit me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
If you want lightness and da45, get an arius.

Platinum version then special request gen 1 cushions instead of the split style cushions. Soft ones at that.
Theres something about not being able to turn a nut and adjust pretention that i wouldnt pay money for .
I have skated with somebody on arius and he was still sorting out the cushions.
He said they are really turny but you feel every little bump through your feet and he gets sore feet if hes not on inlines.He got them free and cut the toe stops off.
They are unique compared to todays other offerings i am impressed by the look of the arius.And i can see how they could be a fun plate ,but if skate for 3 and 1/2 hours im goin to feel pain at my age.
quantoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2017, 12:18 AM   #6
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantoo View Post
Theres something about not being able to turn a nut and adjust pretention that i wouldnt pay money for .
I have skated with somebody on arius and he was still sorting out the cushions.
He said they are really turny but you feel every little bump through your feet and he gets sore feet if hes not on inlines.He got them free and cut the toe stops off.
They are unique compared to todays other offerings i am impressed by the look of the arius.And i can see how they could be a fun plate ,but if skate for 3 and 1/2 hours im goin to feel pain at my age.
rigid suspension, as in no cushions used to dampen will "toughen" your feet up... lol. Da45s are not quite that rigid but still you feel every crack...
fierocious1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2017, 04:24 AM   #7
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
Agreed.

I finally mounted my Snyder Royals. So I can actually talk about something other than my cobbled together plates.

I assume you are talking about the front left-most wheel. I don't think there is any way to remove all the resistance out of this wheel when crossing. I'll still argue that going to a longer cushion will help reduce the bottom-out effect. My "groove" plates should be done in a few weeks so I can test this theory.. sort of - I made other changes also.

My current complaint with stock DA45 plates is wheel wobble when doing dance moves. Really hoping my cushion strategy dampens the movement more.
I assume you are talking about the front left-most wheel. I don't think there is any way to remove all the resistance out of this wheel when crossing. I'll still argue that going to a longer cushion will help reduce the bottom-out effect. My "groove" plates should be done in a few weeks so I can test this theory.. sort of - I made other changes also.

Yes, the left front truck does this. Last weekend I removed a shim and did not get to skate very long on them before leaving the rink. I need app 1/2 that amount of shim or a little less. It completely removed the kick back of the front truck but I could use a little more resistance, testing will reveal just how close I am with thin shimming washers. It is very very close to ideal. Funny thing about shimming, No matter what you reasonably on tightening up the cushions, the shims still make a difference. When you do your crossover, the plate moves out with no hook at the end of the stroke at a low stance. Speed was very good and I only got in a couple of fast laps. Hard enough in the turns that I know I have a bearing going out on the left skate now, feels like a flat spotted wheel but the wheels are perfect. Feels like old times again.. I like it that I can just crank it up in the turns and lean over and just keep on crossing over steadily gaining speed. It gets me into trouble sometimes in this small rink.
The longer cushion setup, I love it. Makes for awesome traction on generally looser floors. I have a very hard time doing any sliding on my wheels/skates. Too dangerous. IF I had harder cushions, I might be able to pull it off.
fierocious1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2017, 05:00 PM   #8
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
If you want lightness and da45, get an arius. Platinum version then special request gen 1 cushions instead of the split style cushions. Soft ones at that.
Hell will freeze before an Arius ever sk8s like a properly set up DA45 of any flavor. Why?? The very feature that makes it so appealing to sk8rs that don't want to goof with their sk8s is it's down fall. When the Arius action is in the neutral position (centered and going straight) there is NO preload on the suspension. All the sk8rs weight is on the axis pin and not the cushions. I have Royals, Dance Imperials, Avengers DA45, converted Xk4s and white Magnums. I even have a RD Elite Axis w/ no $hit actual 45 degree king pins. I cannot get my Arius w/ the gen 2 trucks and gen 1 cushions to behave like my DA45s. Yes this combination of new truck and old cushions greatly improves the behavior of the Arius, but a DA45 it ain't. The Arius action still ramps up too quickly and still chokes up way too soon. Having the weight of the sk8r directly linked to the truck may be beneficial for some as it allows all the push to go to the trucks. But I'm not feeling it...

Look, of all the folks on this forum, I'm certain I have way more time sk8ing on and tinkering w/ DA45s than any other member. Remember, I was the first sk8r to even get the DA45 trucks to play with. I had been rolling my OG Royals for 8 or 9 years before that... I know how these things feel and how they behave. One of the Riedell sponsored sk8rs said that Arius does not compare to a DA45. She should know. I had her on DA45s before she got hooked up w/ Riedell and she was forced to switch to a Reactor.. If you dig back in the forum, I even had to modify her Reactors to get more action for her. That thread was a whole lot of arguing, if arguing is where you want to be.

One other thing to think about w/ SG DA45s and the Axis. It is possible to crank them over so hard they are stopped by contact of the hole in the yoke w/ the king pin. Look @ your trucks and see if there is deformation in the oval hole in the yoke. It may be contributing to issues you are having @ the extreme. In fact, the Riedell sk8r I mentioned?? You should have seen how she deformed the holes in her trucks. I still have 'em in the spares box. Maybe I'll get around to taking a pic one of these days..
__________________
If you are willing to compromise on results, by all means, compromise on equipment. If you think you can get by, you most likely will...Just get by.
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2017, 05:37 PM   #9
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Hell will freeze before an Arius ever sk8s like a properly set up DA45 of any flavor. Why?? The very feature that makes it so appealing to sk8rs that don't want to goof with their sk8s is it's down fall. When the Arius action is in the neutral position (centered and going straight) there is NO preload on the suspension. All the sk8rs weight is on the axis pin and not the cushions. I have Royals, Dance Imperials, Avengers DA45, converted Xk4s and white Magnums. I even have a RD Elite Axis w/ no $hit actual 45 degree king pins. I cannot get my Arius w/ the gen 2 trucks and gen 1 cushions to behave like my DA45s. Yes this combination of new truck and old cushions greatly improves the behavior of the Arius, but a DA45 it ain't. The Arius action still ramps up too quickly and still chokes up way too soon. Having the weight of the sk8r directly linked to the truck may be beneficial for some as it allows all the push to go to the trucks. But I'm not feeling it...

Look, of all the folks on this forum, I'm certain I have way more time sk8ing on and tinkering w/ DA45s than any other member. Remember, I was the first sk8r to even get the DA45 trucks to play with. I had been rolling my OG Royals for 8 or 9 years before that... I know how these things feel and how they behave. One of the Riedell sponsored sk8rs said that Arius does not compare to a DA45. She should know. I had her on DA45s before she got hooked up w/ Riedell and she was forced to switch to a Reactor.. If you dig back in the forum, I even had to modify her Reactors to get more action for her. That thread was a whole lot of arguing, if arguing is where you want to be.

One other thing to think about w/ SG DA45s and the Axis. It is possible to crank them over so hard they are stopped by contact of the hole in the yoke w/ the king pin. Look @ your trucks and see if there is deformation in the oval hole in the yoke. It may be contributing to issues you are having @ the extreme. In fact, the Riedell sk8r I mentioned?? You should have seen how she deformed the holes in her trucks. I still have 'em in the spares box. Maybe I'll get around to taking a pic one of these days..
I guess I just like to tinker with them too much. I have found the clearance area on bottom of the truck that allows the truck to lean over with out crashing the lower cushion cup into the truck, to be not enough. It needs more material removed. All my SG DA45 were getting hit by the lower cone cups until I removed them. And yes damage to the kingpin slot is standard...
fierocious1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2017, 07:32 PM   #10
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,007
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
I guess I just like to tinker with them too much. I have found the clearance area on bottom of the truck that allows the truck to lean over with out crashing the lower cushion cup into the truck, to be not enough. It needs more material removed. All my SG DA45 were getting hit by the lower cone cups until I removed them.
I have not had much success convincing SG to fix that. Yepper, flat washers or no washers on the end of the cone.... Have not seen the truck rub that.

And yes damage to the kingpin slot is standard...
And running into the slot W/ the king pin would certainly "impact" suspension behavior.
__________________
If you are willing to compromise on results, by all means, compromise on equipment. If you think you can get by, you most likely will...Just get by.
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2017, 10:34 PM   #11
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantoo View Post
Theres something about not being able to turn a nut and adjust pretention that i wouldnt pay money for .
I have skated with somebody on arius and he was still sorting out the cushions.
He said they are really turny but you feel every little bump through your feet and he gets sore feet if hes not on inlines.He got them free and cut the toe stops off.
They are unique compared to todays other offerings i am impressed by the look of the arius.And i can see how they could be a fun plate ,but if skate for 3 and 1/2 hours im goin to feel pain at my age.
They are rather rough outdoor when encountering sidewalk or road cracks, and the way the enegy transfers into your feet. Since there is no cushioning aside from the wheel itself and your insole, pretty rough when hitting stuff.

What I like about them is the input/output feel. Theres less delay, and less slop. Even in my heavily worn axis pins/trucks. This is somethijg that kind of sucks about traditional kingpins, the softer the cushions you run, the more you have that unwanted deforming when lateral forces get applied.


I can relate to the "ramp up " issues, however I dont have those problems, maybe when age starts to catch up lol. As for now the only limiting factors I have for turning radius is grip if theres not enough, and you're going fast ... well

If you try to "tune" an arius, its limited, even with the split cushion designs. One would have to take things apart, grind/sand cushions down, reassemble, etc. Totally a PITA. Definitely not for someone who has a need to tinker to get that "right feel" for their occasions.

Although it sucked growing up, I had so many different skates, mostly junk, that making adjustments in my skating became super easy, so small differences from venue to venue or floor conditions dont have a lasting effect. Blessing in disguise.

Maybe sometime soon there will be small inserts in the truck housing one can change out to modify the compression limitations of the plate.

I love the plate, but its got several things that need improvements.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2017, 01:35 AM   #12
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
They are rather rough outdoor when encountering sidewalk or road cracks, and the way the enegy transfers into your feet. Since there is no cushioning aside from the wheel itself and your insole, pretty rough when hitting stuff.

What I like about them is the input/output feel. Theres less delay, and less slop. Even in my heavily worn axis pins/trucks. This is somethijg that kind of sucks about traditional kingpins, the softer the cushions you run, the more you have that unwanted deforming when lateral forces get applied.


I can relate to the "ramp up " issues, however I dont have those problems, maybe when age starts to catch up lol. As for now the only limiting factors I have for turning radius is grip if theres not enough, and you're going fast ... well

If you try to "tune" an arius, its limited, even with the split cushion designs. One would have to take things apart, grind/sand cushions down, reassemble, etc. Totally a PITA. Definitely not for someone who has a need to tinker to get that "right feel" for their occasions.

Although it sucked growing up, I had so many different skates, mostly junk, that making adjustments in my skating became super easy, so small differences from venue to venue or floor conditions dont have a lasting effect. Blessing in disguise.

Maybe sometime soon there will be small inserts in the truck housing one can change out to modify the compression limitations of the plate.

I love the plate, but its got several things that need improvements.
There is NO perfect plate. But almost everyone has a favorite.
fierocious1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.