S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Speed Skating Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old September 19th, 2014, 11:49 PM   #61
ese002
Senior Member
 
ese002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Roadrunner View Post
There you go! Good information kufman and the prices are very reasonable. This type system could work and it's reusable, moving some of the expense from the race promoters to the racer. This also could lower the entry fees. For those not wanting to be timed they don't need to pay for the timing option. .
If you can't rely on virtually everyone being timed, then most of the value of timing is lost.

While it might lower the entry fees, it would raise the cost per racer the first year. Many will balk and not buy one. Those that do buy one will find their results have much less meaning then they expected.

In the second year, this information will be out and hardly anyone will bring a chip except those who bought one the first year and never removed it from the skate bag after the first year's race.

There is some advantage in allowing racer owned tags. They can be more optimally attached, perhaps even embedded in other sports gear. This is probably why it happens in RC racing. Attaching and securing a timing chip to a small vehicles with widely varying shapes is a PIA. Better to find a suitable device for your vehicle, secure it and be done with it then scramble to attach something new at each race.

But skate races aren't like this. The chip is going to go on before the race and come off afterwards anyway. Further, most skaters are only going to one or two races a year so owning and keeping track of a timing chip just means an extra burden to the racer.

Last edited by ese002; September 20th, 2014 at 12:53 AM. Reason: typo
ese002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2014, 07:47 PM   #62
AZ Roadrunner
Senior Member
 
AZ Roadrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ese002 View Post
If you can't rely on virtually everyone being timed, then most of the value of timing is lost.

While it might lower the entry fees, it would raise the cost per racer the first year. Many will balk and not buy one. Those that do buy one will find their results have much less meaning then they expected.

In the second year, this information will be out and hardly anyone will bring a chip except those who bought one the first year and never removed it from the skate bag after the first year's race.

There is some advantage in allowing racer owned tags. They can be more optimally attached, perhaps even embedded in other sports gear. This is probably why it happens in RC racing. Attaching and securing a timing chip to a small vehicles with widely varying shapes is a PIA. Better to find a suitable device for your vehicle, secure it and be done with it then scramble to attach something new at each race.

But skate races aren't like this. The chip is going to go on before the race and come off afterwards anyway. Further, most skaters are only going to one or two races a year so owning and keeping track of a timing chip just means an extra burden to the racer.
All valid points. I'm not sure everyone would agree but you have valid points. Which now brings me to the reason many races have gone away and are no longer. How can we as racers (Who these races are for) help make it more profitable, easier, and worthwhile for promoters to promote and hold more races. If we the racer can't even take care of the simple things like a timing chip then what future does this (our) sport have.

I have told the story of my area (Phoenix) where once we had many races every year. We now have none, in the 5th largest metro area in the country. What happened was the racers and several key race teams complained at every event about every little thing. Soon, one by one the race promoters no longer allowed skaters. In Phoenix there are bike races, several each weekend, but no skate races.

We must be open to changes and new ideas to grow, or keep what races we have. Change, adapt or die is the saying. Don't allow the little things to defeat us.
__________________
Pinnacle Stealth boots, 3 X 125 EO frames. Chandler, AZ
AZ Roadrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2014, 08:47 PM   #63
ese002
Senior Member
 
ese002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Roadrunner View Post
All valid points. I'm not sure everyone would agree but you have valid points. Which now brings me to the reason many races have gone away and are no longer. How can we as racers (Who these races are for) help make it more profitable, easier, and worthwhile for promoters to promote and hold more races. If we the racer can't even take care of the simple things like a timing chip then what future does this (our) sport have.
We lose races for very basic reasons: increased cost to close roads, reduced attendance, and organizer fatigue.

I don't think timing chips are really a factor. We use the same devices as running events and I don't think this is going to change. If there is a way to do it cheaper, you can bet there is a running race somewhere that does it.

Smaller skate races don't have timing chips but they still have timing. It is done visually by volunteers at the finish line. This is the way Napa has always done it and A2A done it this way for all but a year or two of it's 31 year history.
ese002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2014, 02:59 PM   #64
JimmyB
Pinnacle Footwear Expert
 
JimmyB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Georgia USA
Posts: 1,154
Default

it sounds to me that we need a timing company that is close/in the industry...

give all skating races good pricing, and if all races are on the same system, then we can keep a log of all skaters.

so... how much is a good timing system? LOL
__________________
Jimmy Blair II
www.pinnacleracing.com www.facebook.com/PinnacleFootwear
Pinnacle Elite/LSR/TLTF/Twincam
JimmyB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2014, 05:32 PM   #65
bnumerick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 468
Default

I actually know a skater in Indianapolis that built one from scratch. I think he spent, at the time, $300 in parts on it. He brings it out to some of the smaller races we go to, with about 50 skaters, and it's been 100% accurate with results. The real reason you know a skater made it is it even counts laps for you on tracks as small as 100m! lol
bnumerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2014, 07:21 PM   #66
Letme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Slovenia (Europe)
Posts: 1,452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyB View Post
it sounds to me that we need a timing company that is close/in the industry...

give all skating races good pricing, and if all races are on the same system, then we can keep a log of all skaters.

so... how much is a good timing system? LOL
25k -Jaguar Timing system would be perfect as far as my research goes. Otherwise major races around here use ChampionChip (so you basically have 1 chip for Linz Marathon as well as Berlin Marathon - and if you'd run also for Ljubljana Marathon, since they dont have skating)
__________________
My speed roller skating club can be found on http://www.rklj.si
Bont distributor for South-East Europe. Online shop can be found on http://www.bont.si
Letme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2014, 01:43 AM   #67
WJCIV
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: London
Posts: 1,077
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnumerick View Post
I actually know a skater in Indianapolis that built one from scratch. I think he spent, at the time, $300 in parts on it. He brings it out to some of the smaller races we go to, with about 50 skaters, and it's been 100% accurate with results. The real reason you know a skater made it is it even counts laps for you on tracks as small as 100m! lol
When I was looking at things a few months back, it seemed reasonable to stay under $1000 on the sensor gear if three things held. You had to use active RFID, which is more expensive per chip. You could get everyone to skate within a couple meters of the sensor. That's actually easier on indoor tracks, which have narrow straightaways. And you made your own software. I don't know how accurate such a system would be for determining placement, especially since detection of vicinity is a sphere, whereas a line is a line, and the presence of other people (which are in some sense really complex bags of water) can change the detection radius slightly.

Rollerdome in Fort Wayne has a pretty good system. I think Brian (the coach) told me they got it via a service learning project at a local college. That means the plans should be available and reproduceable, since documentation is usually a big part of those courses and they typically aren't worried about proprietary rights. It is aimed at indoor skating, so I don't know how well it would work outdoors.
__________________
You don't improve by training until it hurts; you improve by training after it hurts.

I love the phrase "I quit". It beats more of my opponents than I do.
WJCIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2014, 10:21 PM   #68
shesk8
Senior Member
 
shesk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA
Posts: 1,037
Default

wm_b,
This looks more like a waiver for a participant appearing in photographs or motion pictures rather than allowing them or granting permission for NSIM Inc to use any photograph or motion picture created by a participant. Whether or not this waiver covers the use of my photographs or motion pictures they still obtained it illegally. Furthermore, my video is not just video, it also contains original content in the form of text and data overlay that is my design and original work.
My main issue is that they used an illegally obtained, degraded version of my work for public performance without permission. All of this could have been avoided very easily but instead they chose to steal it which offends me.

Unfortunately, as a participant, and by signing their release waiver, yes you indeed gave the race, it's organizers, and affiliates permission to use "any and all" video/pictures of this race, no matter where or how they obtained it... sux, but it is written with deliberate ambiguity just for that purpose. Now, let's say you just by happen-chance found yourself along side the road during the event and shot some footage and posted it as a non-participant, different story. And, darn straight, it's yours and should be protected. Beyond my opinion pertaining to waivers/rights suggest you talk to legal council who can guide you better on the matter.

Transferable/re-usable/seasonal race chips would be great under perfect conditions. But, with few races it is not terribly economical for most skates,and secondly, it single sources to only a select few companies, and that means they can and will control the pricing. Most events seek out multiple bids for timing, or use local sourced companies. It's great idea (in a prefect world) yet limiting at the same time. With ever-continually changing technologies if a starker dropped $150(estimating purpose only) for a seasonal race chip, and it becomes obsolete within a year, it was wasted $. But, in areas where weekly time trials/races occur, it's a great idea. Then again there is still the inevitable human-factor to toss into the equation, that of lost or defunct chips... nothing's perfect. So, the cost added to entry fees to have a company handle the timing should be reasonable (but, don't' expect race organizers to disclose that portion of your every fee to you). and, imo, responsibility defaults back onto the timing company (if results are messed up) as well as to organizers who select and oversee the timing company. I am sorry, but if you run a race timing company and cannot get results correct, may be time to seek other career options.
__________________
From Salt Lake City where ice meets inline...
Email: sales@theskatenowshop.com
www.theskatenowshop.com
shesk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2014, 10:44 PM   #69
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

here is a look at how the various men's times look. For pro/elite I just kept everyone together. If wanted I could do another plot with pro open removed.
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati

Last edited by bjvircks; September 23rd, 2014 at 03:25 AM.
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 24th, 2014, 05:49 PM   #70
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,003
Default

That is a great chart, BJVircks. Thanks.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2014, 01:58 PM   #71
bleedingedge
Junior Member
 
bleedingedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midlothian, Va
Posts: 22
Default

bjvircks, how did you determine who was in which wave? Bib number or chip/start time? I only ask because I noticed a lot of bibs not starting with their waves (bumping up)....
bleedingedge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 25th, 2014, 03:24 PM   #72
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

at the time I used bib numbers... knowing full well I'd get (slightly) flawed results. since this plot was created I have done a little case by case looking into start time and found the expected wave jumping (just as I've found in past years). This checking effort is difficult and time consuming. I also captured the 'registration verification' data which did list wave placement (as of date of posting) and crossed that info with timing results/bib #. There appears to be a few people that legitimately have numbers that do not align with wave... but I cannot be sure.

One thing I like to do is to offset each wave plotline to account for wave start offset to give an idea actual groupings at the finish line.


edit... I've recently been trying to figure out how a guy from Adv 3 got a 1:27 time... considering his splits
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2014, 03:07 AM   #73
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

I really like the way the Apostle Islands timing people post the race splits for everyone in a single document. for NSIM I'd like to see in a single output every individual's chipstart, splits, finish time. With the Apostle Island info (three lap race) I can see who starts strong but falls away, and when. Who stays consistent throughout, etc. With the NISM timer's general listing it is impossible to tell what wave someone actually started in. However, if you go to a specific skater's results you can get their start time and figure out what wave they were in.


Folks here have had a lot to say about ways to ease the burden on event organizers. Creating ad hoc timing solutions, from my perspective, is not the way to go. System integration, configuration management, hardware-software-firmware-wetware coordination, etc, etc, etc. are all difficult issues to bring together in a viable and consistent product. In saying this I'm not defending the NSIM timers... just saying it isn't as easy as it looks.
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2014, 03:28 AM   #74
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

hey Donnybrook... just between you and me... we've got to find a way to quit having consistently less than great results. I watched your NSIM'14 video. While it does not show when I made my fatal error in judgment, I did fill in the blanks a bit and now understand that my lack of fully understanding pack dynamics put me in a bad situation. Also... every year I've moved up a wave, and this means being around increasingly more sophisticated skaters each year.

Donnybrook... you've got to figure out how to keep your helmet/camera on straight! I keep leaning over as I watch your video, trying to get the horizon level!
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2014, 06:28 AM   #75
wm_b
Upgrade to matching shoes
 
wm_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shesk8 View Post
Unfortunately, as a participant, and by signing their release waiver, yes you indeed gave the race, it's organizers, and affiliates permission to use "any and all" video/pictures of this race, no matter where or how they obtained it... sux, but it is written with deliberate ambiguity just for that purpose. Now, let's say you just by happen-chance found yourself along side the road during the event and shot some footage and posted it as a non-participant, different story. And, darn straight, it's yours and should be protected. Beyond my opinion pertaining to waivers/rights suggest you talk to legal council who can guide you better on the matter.
Ambiguity is a double edged sword. There is a point where ambiguous clauses can cast a wide net and also catch nothing. I'm not going to take them to court over this matter but I will use it as moral justification to forego a hand-washing following a bathroom visit prior to an introduction to the race director next year.
wm_b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2014, 01:26 PM   #76
kufman
Senior Member
 
kufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,104
Default

Race footage gets used like this all the time. A couple years ago at nationals, they were playing some of my Youtube videos on the big screen in the auditorium. I was happy that they could be used to promote the sport.
kufman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th, 2014, 02:25 PM   #77
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

OK, wm_b... we get it... the organizers should have been better about the use of your work. Now grow up, get over it and move on.

I started this thread in the hopes it would be a warm, touchy-feely welcome to relative newcomers... not devolve into the all too common veteran's bitch session about a few things that didn't go absolutely 100% perfectly.
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 29th, 2014, 10:02 PM   #78
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,003
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjvircks View Post
Donnybrook... you've got to figure out how to keep your helmet/camera on straight! I keep leaning over as I watch your video, trying to get the horizon level!
Camera was on straight, so was the helmet, but as I was getting tired, my form in my upper body suffered and I have a tendency to list. Sorry about that. If it makes you feel any better, that is what I saw for the race, too. As for where things went wrong, for me, I showed up on race day with some kind of chest cold that, three weeks on, hasn't resolved. In addition to being physically compromised, I wasn't aggressive enough in the pack. For this race, you need to stay toward the middle/front of the pack. The back of those long lines has a tendency to result in those accordion movements, meaning the race turns into 26 miles of intervals. This effect is less so at the front of the pack, and easier to manage. My race from Wave A2 last year is a pretty good comparison. I stayed with the front, but probably pulled a little too much given the wind. We didn't have that accordion problem.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2014, 08:59 PM   #79
bleedingedge
Junior Member
 
bleedingedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Midlothian, Va
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjvircks View Post
at the time I used bib numbers... knowing full well I'd get (slightly) flawed results. ...
bjvircks, Try this. I split the divisions by chip start instead of bib. Turns out that after A1, there is a ton of wave jumping. By A3, there were only 20 of us? lol?
bleedingedge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 30th, 2014, 09:23 PM   #80
bjvircks
Major Trouble
 
bjvircks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Posts: 1,603
Default

so Scott... where did you come up with all the start times? Did you grab them one at a time or get a bulk listing? Once you've got those for everyone the rest is easy. Can even run offset calculations to determine exactly who was around you at the finish line, no matter what wave anyone was in. Can you also get the splits for everyone?
__________________
Quando omni flunkus, moritati
bjvircks is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.