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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old May 1st, 2012, 01:10 AM   #41
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but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

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you need to get yourself a set of Boens somehow. Then you will know a true speed plate
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Old May 1st, 2012, 01:37 AM   #42
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you need to get yourself a set of Boens somehow. Then you will know a true speed plate

I'm building my new "outdoor Speed skate" (not my outdoor Recreational skate listed in my signature). But a separate outdoor speed build

R 595's and aussie Scott's (Bones Swiss Ceramics)


I narrowed down the plate to either;

1. Boen 'Star B1 WTS' (yes, I utilize a stop, I don't duck-run)

2. Paioli 'Professional' plate (or)

3. Paioli 'Pro Shark Steel' plate

Thought you might like that Boen choice
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Old May 1st, 2012, 02:27 AM   #43
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you need to get yourself a set of Boens somehow. Then you will know a true speed plate
Once the financial terrorism laws are enforced against J.P.Morgan-Chase, and they can no longer use their naked short selling scam to manipulate the paper prices of gold and silver, I will be definitely able to afford Boen plates. The junior minor stocks will mot remain artificially beat down forever.

However, until I confirm your strong opinion that Boens are best, by skating on a set of borrowed Boens, I will remain unconvinced of their superiority over my significantly lighter weight Laser Slider builds. I will certainly keep an open mind on the matter, however.

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Old May 1st, 2012, 08:21 AM   #44
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Please fill us in on all your speed skating experience Dillo, you sure seem to know a lot for someone who hasn't actually been involved in a race and only started to learn how to speed skate a year ago

Jack of all trades master of none me thinks.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 01:54 AM   #45
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Once the financial terrorism laws are enforced against J.P.Morgan-Chase, and they can no longer use their naked short selling scam to manipulate the paper prices of gold and silver, I will be definitely able to afford Boen plates. The junior minor stocks will mot remain artificially beat down forever.

However, until I confirm your strong opinion that Boens are best, by skating on a set of borrowed Boens, I will remain unconvinced of their superiority over my significantly lighter weight Laser Slider builds. I will certainly keep an open mind on the matter, however.

-Armadillo
Didn't really need an economics lecture.

So let me get this right. Numerous World Titles, World Records,won and set on Boens is not enough to convince you.

It is not always about the weight
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 05:02 AM   #46
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Didn't really need an economics lecture.

So let me get this right. Numerous World Titles, World Records,won and set on Boens is not enough to convince you.

It is not always about the weight
You guys just got done telling me it is the skater that wins the races not the skate gear. So, I guess my infatuation with Sliders (and yours with Boens) doesn't really matter all that much anyway. Its the skater skills, training, and race savvy the really makes the most difference, right?

So I will stick to my lighter-than-Boen weight plastic plate skates for now, at least until I can test some Boens without actually having to buy them.

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Old May 2nd, 2012, 05:58 AM   #47
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You guys just got done telling me it is the skater that wins the races not the skate gear. So, I guess my infatuation with Sliders (and yours with Boens) doesn't really matter all that much anyway. Its the skater skills, training, and race savvy the really makes the most difference, right?

So I will stick to my lighter-than-Boen weight plastic plate skates for now, at least until I can test some Boens without actually having to buy them.

-Armadillo
I was saying a skater is not going to perform as well on a skate he/she is not comfortable with.

But having said that, I wonder how many World Title holders have used a Slider.

Go and try a set if you like. But geez, if you put your super duper cushion upgrade on them I will cry.
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Old May 2nd, 2012, 11:51 PM   #48
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I was saying a skater is not going to perform as well on a skate he/she is not comfortable with.

But having said that, I wonder how many World Title holders have used a Slider.

Go and try a set if you like. But geez, if you put your super duper cushion upgrade on them I will cry.
No world record holder ever had a chance to try a set of Slider skates built the way I build them. If they did, things might change in that regard.

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Old May 3rd, 2012, 12:39 AM   #49
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Just a quick reality check
The Magnum is an S/A45, not a D/A 45, and the trucks(to make it a D/A45 from an S/A45) cobbled into the magnum are arbitrary, so if the avenger is a coin flip of the magnum... that's two strikes.

The first strike is a pressed KP
I use the standard D/A 45 kit on my Magnums, it is a true fit for it as well as the Invaders, XK4 and some others too. No press pin though. There is a point that I keep seeing missed during all the discussions here. Cushions are one thing and Pivot Angle is another. One sets up primarily the plates reaction, the other slows it to make it controllable(cushions and kingpin angle actually). If you are talented and work your way through it, a D/A 45 can perform as good or better than just about any plate out there. An out of the box D/A 45 plate needs attention unless the skater skates on rock hard cushions tightened down so tight nothing moves...the absolute stupidest thing to do with any plate. I see this all the time, people not taking advantage of what the plate is designed for, turning and tuning to your liking.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 02:13 AM   #50
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I use the standard D/A 45 kit on my Magnums, it is a true fit for it as well as the Invaders, XK4 and some others too. No press pin though. There is a point that I keep seeing missed during all the discussions here. Cushions are one thing and Pivot Angle is another. One sets up primarily the plates reaction, the other slows it to make it controllable(cushions and kingpin angle actually). If you are talented and work your way through it, a D/A 45 can perform as good or better than just about any plate out there. An out of the box D/A 45 plate needs attention unless the skater skates on rock hard cushions tightened down so tight nothing moves...the absolute stupidest thing to do with any plate. I see this all the time, people not taking advantage of what the plate is designed for, turning and tuning to your liking.
Bravo!

Well said. Plain and simple and to the point. Your last sentence was KEY. Thus is why I really emphasize 'bushing configuration' (and I know that's still just a small part) but it's a well overlooked area of Tuning your entire skate to your liking and your skating advantage.


____________________________________

in regards to previous statements in this thread....

Some want to speak about stability and the fact that the 30* KP angle in the very well designed(IMO) DA45 chasis are not optimal for stability. And I say (in agreement) that yes, lesser angles on the KP will present a skater with a bit more stability while at high speeds, and that the 30* angled KP (D/A)will allow for a much better turning radius.... but people are not considering where the majority of racing is taking place

Important fact:
I've speed skated/raced competitively for years and I would have to say from experience that the majority of races are taking place on oval short track (indoor skate rinks) and maybe at times larger ovals (such as in warehouses) or on Hockey courts (in or outdoor). Speed skaters are skating 'ovals' or more oblong configurations; and when does a Speed Skater ever get to a 'speed' where 'instability' at speeds are a major issue??? NEVER. Not unless we're being pulled by an automobile at 40 miles per hour.

Unless it's someone who does time-trials or races on straight-a-ways; (which is not nearly as common); a speed skater is rarely in a 'straight' long enough, or at speeds nearly high enough to make even mediocre skate chasis "shake rattle and roll". Speed skaters are 'almost' always in a constant 'cross over'. And moreover, when the skater is in a cross over while turning, the inside skate (left skate - going counter clockwise) is almost in a constant flex-turn while skating the diamond. So now tell me how the 30* KP in a DA45 based plate (or any plate with a high angled KP) doesn't benefit the skater much more than the more upright angled KP's (10*, 12*, 15*, 17*, etc)??

It does. It makes perfect mechanical sense and perfect physical sense, and by my own experience, it makes for an amazing feature on a speed skate! (IMO)
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 04:11 AM   #51
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Bravo!

Well said. Plain and simple and to the point. Your last sentence was KEY. Thus is why I really emphasize 'bushing configuration' (and I know that's still just a small part) but it's a well overlooked area of Tuning your entire skate to your liking and your skating advantage.


____________________________________

in regards to previous statements in this thread....

Some want to speak about stability and the fact that the 30* KP angle in the very well designed(IMO) DA45 chasis are not optimal for stability. And I say (in agreement) that yes, lesser angles on the KP will present a skater with a bit more stability while at high speeds, and that the 30* angled KP (D/A)will allow for a much better turning radius.... but people are not considering where the majority of racing is taking place

Important fact:
I've speed skated/raced competitively for years and I would have to say from experience that the majority of races are taking place on oval short track (indoor skate rinks) and maybe at times larger ovals (such as in warehouses) or on Hockey courts (in or outdoor). Speed skaters are skating 'ovals' or more oblong configurations; and when does a Speed Skater ever get to a 'speed' where 'instability' at speeds are a major issue??? NEVER. Not unless we're being pulled by an automobile at 40 miles per hour.

Unless it's someone who does time-trials or races on straight-a-ways; (which is not nearly as common); a speed skater is rarely in a 'straight' long enough, or at speeds nearly high enough to make even mediocre skate chasis "shake rattle and roll". Speed skaters are 'almost' always in a constant 'cross over'. And moreover, when the skater is in a cross over while turning, the inside skate (left skate - going counter clockwise) is almost in a constant flex-turn while skating the diamond. So now tell me how the 30* KP in a DA45 based plate (or any plate with a high angled KP) doesn't benefit the skater much more than the more upright angled KP's (10*, 12*, 15*, 17*, etc)??

It does. It makes perfect mechanical sense and perfect physical sense, and by my own experience, it makes for an amazing feature on a speed skate! (IMO)
You gloss over the key aspect of stability on a skates, regardless of speed.

All speed skaters in motion are continuously adjusting their focus of weight onto their plates, and are typically rolling with only one foot down the majority of the time. Placement of the skaters focus of weight onto the skate needs to be precise in order to follow the optimum track. The better skaters are usually the most accurate at maintaining the proper focus of their weight over their skates and nailing the most efficient track line around the oval, but no one is perfect.

This is where skate stability factors into the equation. Since speed skaters are continuously making slight errors in placement of the focus of their weight onto their skate (plate lean), the plates having the highest level of turn response (like DA45) plates are going to experience the largest amount of path deviation away from the optimum track. Even if the amplitude of this kind of path deviation is slight, it still steals energy.
With a less turn responsive plate setup, the same degree of error in focus of weight placement (plate lean) will not trigger as much path deviation from the optimum line, and thus less energy gets wasted. This is how greater action stability yields a slight speed advantage.

I suspect most speed skaters have never skated on a shallow action speed plate where the action has been tweaked and freed up to the point where there is minimal resistance to truck turning until the widest limit of the truck swing range. Having the shallower action speed plate tuned this way, and I do not mean by making it all wobbly loose near neutral either, makes it very easy to hold the turn arcs without much foot effort at all, just like with a DA45, but without as much tracking errors for the same level of focus of weight errors.

If your steep kingpin plate turns freely throughout the full truck swing range, then a DA45 plate will not yield any significant arc tracking turning advantage at the level of turning sharpness required to negotiate the curves of the speed track oval. The DA45 plate will, however, more greatly amplify your focus of weight errors (plate lean) giving a wider tracking error with detrimental loss of speed.

Small errors being more amplified by a steeper (DA45) action is exactly what what plate twitchiness is all about, and, the faster you go, the further the deviation away from optimum track will be. It remains an issue at slower speeds too, just not as much of one.

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Old May 3rd, 2012, 05:36 AM   #52
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You gloss over the key aspect of stability on a skates, regardless of speed.

All speed skaters in motion are continuously adjusting their focus of weight onto their plates, and are typically rolling with only one foot down the majority of the time. Placement of the skaters focus of weight onto the skate needs to be precise in order to follow the optimum track. The better skaters are usually the most accurate at maintaining the proper focus of their weight over their skates and nailing the most efficient track line around the oval, but no one is perfect.

This is where skate stability factors into the equation. Since speed skaters are continuously making slight errors in placement of the focus of their weight onto their skate (plate lean), the skaters that have the highest level of turn response (like DA45) plates are going to experience the largest amount of path deviation away from the optimum track. Even if the amplitude of this kind of path deviation is slight, it still steals energy.
With a less turn responsive plate setup, the same degree of error in focus of weight placement (plate lean) will not trigger as much path deviation from the optimum line, and thus less energy gets wasted. This is how greater action stability yields a slight speed advantage.

I suspect most speed skaters have never skated on a shallow action speed plate where the action has been tweaked and freed up to the point where there is minimal resistance to truck turning until the widest limit of the truck swing range. Having the shallower action speed plate tuned this way, and I do not mean by making it all wobbly loose near neutral either, makes it very easy to hold the turn arcs without much foot effort at all, just like with a DA45, but without as much tracking errors for the same level of focus of weight errors.

If your steep kingpin plate turns freely throughout the full truck swing range, then a DA45 plate will not yield any significant arc tracking turning advantage at the level of turning sharpness required to negotiate the curves of the speed track oval. The DA45 plate will, however, more greatly amplify your focus of weight errors (plate lean) giving a wider tracking error with detrimental loss of speed. NOT TRUE AT ALL... IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW YOU HAVE YOUR SKATE ADJUSTED AND TUNED.

Small errors being more amplified by a steeper (DA45) action is exactly what what plate twitchiness is all about, and, the faster you go, the further the deviation away from optimum track will be. It remains an issue at slower speeds too, just not as much of one.

-Armadillo
Well, Ill make it more simple:

1.) you're glossing over a key aspect - Human Nature. I have over two decades in competitive speed skating and I can't recall one time where I had a "constant" conscious thought about 'balance' (which is the focus of weight onto the plates). The only time I even remotely acknowledge the human ability and need for balance (weight focus, weight transfer, etc) is when I was slipping or pushing myself past the plane of balance. Other than that, when a skater is racing, the notion of balance is 100% natural and subconscious.

2.) Even more simply, this: A.) My main indoor race build consists of a beautifully engineered SG Avenger DA45 Skate plate. This plate has a 30* KP angle. It has a shortened nose (optimal for forward mounts, although I chose not to utilize that type of adjustment in my build); it has a three plane arch as its main feature for reinforcement, which makes it very stiff and very stable (pure Physics); it is light weight and extremely responsive. All the characteristics of what a good speed plate should be.

B.) the plate I no longer skate is the PowerDyne Reactor - a very renowned speed plate, and a very well engineered piece of skate gear, It too is fast, responsive, not as stiff as the Avenger, but still very stiff, and it is extremely well built.

3.) I'm not here to say that the Reactor is not a great speed plate (we all know or agree that it is, very much so... I think we all agree) but the reason I bring it up is this: The Reactor utilizes a 10* KP angle on its chasis.
The Avenger utilizes a 30* KP angle on its chasis.

I get around the tips of the diamond(tops of the oval) quicker, smoother, with more control and less effort than I did with the Reactor, PERIOD. All skaters who actually speed skate know that 99% of all moves and advancements during a race are made at those two points (the tops of the oval). I win more races on the Avenger than I did on the Reactor. All of this said for this:

Moral of the story: the Avenger is a Speed plate. Great to be utilized for other disciplines as well, especially Roller Derby. But it is by all characteristics, a speed plate.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 02:50 PM   #53
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I don't think anyone at a racers level would have their cushion setup looser than they would be comfortable with......
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 08:28 PM   #54
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Maneuverability is good. I will say that I haven't been skating that long and I don't have the balance of someone who has been speed skating for several years. That being said, what is recommended, a 10-15* plate of the DA45 where it may take me longer to get the feel for it.

Also, what do you get the maximum push off of, a stiffer plate or the DA45?

I am skating 12.5 seconds laps after a few months, but I want to get to sub 11.5 in the next year. Right now I am on nylon plates that came on my R3 boots. It is a dangerously unstable setup for a 200 lb man that wasn't that bad until I got to this type of speed in the corners.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 10:01 PM   #55
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Well, Ill make it more simple:

1.) you're glossing over a key aspect - Human Nature. I have over two decades in competitive speed skating and I can't recall one time where I had a "constant" conscious thought about 'balance' (which is the focus of weight onto the plates). The only time I even remotely acknowledge the human ability and need for balance (weight focus, weight transfer, etc) is when I was slipping or pushing myself past the plane of balance. Other than that, when a skater is racing, the notion of balance is 100% natural and subconscious.

2.) Even more simply, this: A.) My main indoor race build consists of a beautifully engineered SG Avenger DA45 Skate plate. This plate has a 30* KP angle. It has a shortened nose (optimal for forward mounts, although I chose not to utilize that type of adjustment in my build); it has a three plane arch as its main feature for reinforcement, which makes it very stiff and very stable (pure Physics); it is light weight and extremely responsive. All the characteristics of what a good speed plate should be.

B.) the plate I no longer skate is the PowerDyne Reactor - a very renowned speed plate, and a very well engineered piece of skate gear, It too is fast, responsive, not as stiff as the Avenger, but still very stiff, and it is extremely well built.

3.) I'm not here to say that the Reactor is not a great speed plate (we all know or agree that it is, very much so... I think we all agree) but the reason I bring it up is this: The Reactor utilizes a 10* KP angle on its chasis.
The Avenger utilizes a 30* KP angle on its chasis.

I get around the tips of the diamond(tops of the oval) quicker, smoother, with more control and less effort than I did with the Reactor, PERIOD. All skaters who actually speed skate know that 99% of all moves and advancements during a race are made at those two points (the tops of the oval). I win more races on the Avenger than I did on the Reactor. All of this said for this:

Moral of the story: the Avenger is a Speed plate. Great to be utilized for other disciplines as well, especially Roller Derby. But it is by all characteristics, a speed plate.
Just because you do not think about the process by which your are maintaining your balance to direct the line of your rolling track does not mean that it is not happening. No matter how sharp your skills are, your foot is still oscillating somewhat as it targets your focus of weight where it needs to be to steer an optimally smooth line around the track. The more responsively your plate turns, the further your errors deviate from the optimal track. Nobody is perfect at this, and it is because of the geometry of the DA45 suspension that errors are more amplified.

You continue to compare apples to oranges and you also conflate two different plate suspension concepts. Turning responsiveness is mainly related to amount of degrees of plate turn for a given amount of degrees of plate lean, and this is dictated by GEOMETRY, not cushions.
It is an angular displacement ratio of plate lean to truck swing

Ease of turning is different concept, one that is more affected by the interaction of the cushions with the parts of the plate that they touch. The foot force necessary to make the trucks swing from plate lean is what this mainly affects. While the plate's geometry does also somewhat impact the amount leverage that the foot lean force has for squishing the cushions, other factors like the firmness and resilience of the cushions, combined with the level mechanical constraint placed on the cushions affect the ease of turning of a plate to a greater extend than the geometry does.

I doubt that you have ever skated on a Reactor with a similar level of ease of turning as an Avenger. If you had, I suspect your assessments of the two as to which is the better speed plate would be reversed.

-Armadillo
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 10:10 PM   #56
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Default Stiff is the key

A stiff plate is going to transfer more power to the floor, the less everything under the foot moves the more energy you will put to the floor. But you don't need to have the truck tightened down so far that they don't move. you have to find the happy spot for YOUR trucks to be at, and from experience, that is nearly impossible to get skating on a plastic plate.

I can't for the life of me get my back truck (45) to get my power to the floor like my front truck (5). It just deflects to much and eats my push, but it sure does turn nice on the derby track . this is just my opinion.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 10:45 PM   #57
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You could always try the Lazer X-Tech. Inexpensive and works great.
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 10:57 PM   #58
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Maneuverability is good. I will say that I haven't been skating that long and I don't have the balance of someone who has been speed skating for several years. That being said, what is recommended, a 10-15* plate of the DA45 where it may take me longer to get the feel for it.

Also, what do you get the maximum push off of, a stiffer plate or the DA45?

I am skating 12.5 seconds laps after a few months, but I want to get to sub 11.5 in the next year. Right now I am on nylon plates that came on my R3 boots. It is a dangerously unstable setup for a 200 lb man that wasn't that bad until I got to this type of speed in the corners.
As I just posted to SwisherTone, do not assume that the DA5/10/15 suspensions have to be "stiffer" because they do not have to be.

By fully optimizing the shallower action (steeper kingpin) plate suspensions, their stiffness (resistance to turning) can be reduced to the DA45 level. This does not mean that they will turn as far or as fast as a DA45 will at the same amount of plate lean angle, but it does mean that the foot force needed to swing the trucks through the full range of their travel can be similar to the foot force needed with a DA45 plate.

As far as plate design affecting the power levels of the strokes goes, this is a far more tricky analysis. Many things can affect how much power comes out of your stroke.

If you can't keep all four wheels down on the floor and your weight nearly evenly distributed across them, then slipping can steal stroke power. Without a plate having excellent freedom of action throughout the full range of the truck swing, wheels lifting from the floor at full stroke extension is a big issue. The DA45 is usually considered better for handling this issue, but that is only by comparison to the typically way too-stiff and choked up DA/10/15 actions that most people are familiar with. Once they are fully optimized, the DA45 plates have little advantage.

The other key factor affecting the level of power your stroke delivers according to the plate design, relates to the fact that the skaters who go fastest nearly always skate the lowest, and they direct the force vector of their push closer to horizontal, and consequently further laterally outward than other less speedy skaters do.

With this in mind the question should then focus on how do different plate designs and their performance characteristics impact a skaters ability to reach out to the widest point with their stroke, while keeping all four wheels down and still steering smoothly along the proper arc of travel for delivering optimum power onto the floor.

I assert that the DA5/10/15 speed plates are better able to facilitate a lower/wider power stroke. My basis for this is that to reach out wider with your stoke, while still keeping all four wheels down, requires a significant amount of ankle lean over. Since the DA5/10/15 plates allow more plate lean over with less turning, they allow the skater to keep their ankles more in line with their leg (less bent over) yet still hold the proper track with four wheels staying down.

With DA45 plates, as the stroke goes wide, the plate cannot be allowed to lean over as far or else the path of the arc turns inward too sharply & too soon. By having to bend the ankle more sharply in order keep the plate more upright to follow the proper arc, the DA45 plate design forces a compromise between keeping the stroke force vector low and nearer to the wheels, but with too much turning, versus holding the plate more upright to track the optimum arc, but then having a less horizontal stroke.

People with very strong and bendy angles may be able to pull this off with the DA45 plates, but even these people, IMO, will still be sacrificing some of their potential power by rolling with the DA45s

-Armadillo
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Old May 3rd, 2012, 11:10 PM   #59
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A stiff plate is going to transfer more power to the floor, the less everything under the foot moves the more energy you will put to the floor. But you don't need to have the truck tightened down so far that they don't move. you have to find the happy spot for YOUR trucks to be at, and from experience, that is nearly impossible to get skating on a plastic plate.

I can't for the life of me get my back truck (45) to get my power to the floor like my front truck (5). It just deflects to much and eats my push, but it sure does turn nice on the derby track . this is just my opinion.
If "stiff" makes your wheels come off the floor, then it will not be helping your power.

Tell a pole vaulter that a stiff aluminum pole, compared to a flexible fiberglass one, will give him more power to lift him higher over the bar.

He will be rolling his eyes at you. "Stiff" very often does not transfer power better than "flexible" and "resilient" can.

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Old May 3rd, 2012, 11:23 PM   #60
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Maneuverability is good. I will say that I haven't been skating that long and I don't have the balance of someone who has been speed skating for several years. That being said, what is recommended, a 10-15* plate of the DA45 where it may take me longer to get the feel for it.

Also, what do you get the maximum push off of, a stiffer plate or the DA45?

I am skating 12.5 seconds laps after a few months, but I want to get to sub 11.5 in the next year. Right now I am on nylon plates that came on my R3 boots. It is a dangerously unstable setup for a 200 lb man that wasn't that bad until I got to this type of speed in the corners.
Hey Yog.

The stiffness isn't coming from your trucks. The stiffness you want is in large majority coming from the plate (just as Hoss stated).

The trucks and their configuration, design, etc. is where you'e gonna get your stability from, in large majority. So when you say "which do you get a better push off from"... I will say that your entire chasis (Plate and trucks) play an all inclusive part in the rigidity of your skate, but you're getting the stiffness from the plate itself (99%). And yeah, while I think there are a good hand full of very well made Nylon plates (PD Thruster, NOVA plate, LASER speed plates, older Satellite plates), I would definitely say for a guy at 200lbs, you're getting wayyy to much flex... much more than you need or want. Get into an alloy frame and the difference will be night and day. For some one lighter in weight under 130-40 lbs, Nylons plates are a great plates to skate for competitive skating (IMO)

ANd then again, if you're playing Derby, at 200 lbs, sounds like you'd be in a Blockers position??? At that position, the 30* KP of a DA45 truck really isn't going to benefit you one way or the other. Movements as a Blocker don't require the quick and heavy sharp turning like a Jammer does, so really you're good (IMO) with just about any truck configuration out there
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