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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old June 20th, 2016, 05:39 AM   #1
larryoracing
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Smile How to do a Boeckl Jump, by Larry Otani


I have been thinking about performing a Boeckl jump.

Skating/going forward, it takes off from a right inside edge/foot, dragging the left inside wheel/left skate behind and jumping up into the air, rotating 1 revolution up into the air facing fwd/straight ahead and preparing for the landing on the last, quick ½ revolution coming down for the landing and kicking the left leg forward on the landing/landing on the ROB foot/edge/skating backwards.

1) How to prepare for the jump; jumping off skates?

I really like the “Derrick”/Joe (you tube video) on how to perform 360 Rotation Jump on skates, but let’s do them off skates first…OK?

Tricks or keys to learning this jump.


You must have a strong RIF edge/skate/takeoff edge. You must have a strong ROB/Edge/Skating backward/landing edge.

How to you get those strong RIF edges and strong ROB edges?


1) I spend a lot of time practicing steps and turns of Artistic Roller Skating dances. I would say have spent the last 5 days, 2-3 hours a day on basic dance edges when I practice, just trying to get back into the thick of things, artistic roller skating.

A) When you start to do a Mohawk turn in a dance, you start with the RIF edge/same edge as the starting edge on a boeckl.

B) When you do the Collegiate Dance all the Boys Edges going down the straightaway are LIF and RIF edges. I was thinking about that today and started practicing those edges and the Collegiate Dance steps.


C) ROB /LOB edges can be practiced down the straightaway skating backwards. I practice these edges all the time. If you can’t skate a strong LOB or ROB edge how do you ever expect to land a Jump on Roller skates, especially when the rotations start getting bigger like the Boeckl (1.5 revolutions)/Proficiency test #6 for Freestyle?

2) It’s really key to the jump, to jump straight up, while rotating. Do not try to just cock this jump CCW and spin the heck out of it. You will fall flat on your face. Again the key is to jump up and and around. Let the rotation take care of itself.


a) With your left arm forward and you right arm back, facing forward jump straight up and not around, but up and around. There is a difference.

It’s really important to look straight ahead and jump with the intent of staying facing forward as you jump as hard as you can straight up and rotate around. Why?



The key to this jump is the “check” rotation stop of the jump at 1 revolution facing forward.


Note: When you jump up it is imperative to imagine a shaft going through the center of your head and out the bottom side of you buttocks..lol! This is the rotation axis. If you jump a little off axis it makes it really hard to check this jump, kind of like a three turn in the sky, you kind of do a RIF three turn in the sky and land on the ROB edge skating backwards, with the left leg forward.

If you were on a figure circle and doing a RIF Three turn, Left arm forward and Right arm back, you would to the three turn and pivot over an axis going right through the center of your body.

After the three turn your left arm would still be in front of you and your right arm behind you, but now you are on the ROB edge. Same thing applies when you do the Boeckl jump. It’s exactly the same thing.

So, imaging yourself on a figure circle, with Left Arm forward and right arm back, start the three, bring the arms in and the do the three turn and let the arms back out. That is the “check” motion of the last half revolution of the Boeckl/ROB landing of the Boeckl jump

1) The first 360, the Derrick/Joe ( you tube video) 360 on both skates skating forward is the first 360 of the Boeckl jump.

2) The last ½ revolution it the “check motion” , facing forward is RIF three turn in the sky to ROB landing edge out of the sky…lol! That's why I say it emperative to jump this jump facing forward and trying to face forward during the initial jump upwards. The last 1/2 revolution is the check motion staring forward and landing backwards/RIF three turn in the sky to ROB landing.

In about 3 minutes I could almost do a full 1.5 revolution Boeckl jump without skates on the carpet, but off skates you always land on the Right skate without fear of falling. So that's why it's safe and smart to jump off skates first to get the feel for the jump, then go to skates if you fear not...lol!

Someone pointed out to do this with a Wall on one side of you and some kind of barrier on the other side of you. This forces you to jump up and not around. If you jump “around” you will get off axis and crash into the wall or barrier. The wall and barrier sub-consciously, forces one to jump up and around for fear of crashing into a wall if you try to jump around only, without jumping up first. It easy to get off axis when you are only concentrating on getting around quickly...LOL! It works. I did that also.

So, really the key is excellent strong, strong axis through the center of your body while rotating, starting facing forward and ending facing forwards, for the last 1/2 check motion/RIF three to ROB landing. This is what I concentrate on when I practice this jump off skates. This makes the three turn in the sky a snap/a secret to completing the last ½ revolution of this jump. This last ½ revolution happens quickly and if you are not in perfect position, like doing a RIF three to ROB on a figure circle you will not learn this jump. It just so hard and suddle at the same time.

Trying doing a RIF three ROB on the figure circle without standing perfectly straight up and down position while skating. You will fall off axis on the circle and have to put your free foot down to save your balance. Same thing happens while jumping the Boeckl. Now imagine this while rotating high in the air. If you don't have perfect "axis" position in the sky, you will crash and burn on this jump/hurt yourself. Ouch...LOL!

Sincerely,

Larry O and happy jumping. See you at the practice rink.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 09:38 AM   #2
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Hi Larry,
I found that the easiest way to get a boeckl is to learn the Loop jump. Get the loop perfect, by jumping them as many times in a combination. It will set your body posture. Once muscles and body are set then adding the extra half rotation is childs play.

Take off position. It can be taken off as a typical loop with the left foot (Free leg) in front and it looks like a standard loop take off except starting on an inner forward vs outer back edge. The other take off is similar to a salchow with the left leg/free leg behind/trailing and bring it straight in and up. This is my preferred method.

Next paragraph is a 2 step take off and it looks cool and feels cool, starting off on opposite foot and opposite lean then do a change of foot and edge and jump in smooth execution:

I prefer my entry to be left forward inside edge with the free foot (right foot) from back to front swing then bring the right foot back to square, change foot and do a stroke and change edge at the same time so you are standing on the right inside edge with the left foot behind and immediately bring the left leg in and up as you jump.
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Old June 20th, 2016, 10:17 AM   #3
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This shows both techniques. First was what I was describing as my favorite similar to a salchow, the second is the other variation similar to a loop take off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KTrL8Tjglg
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Old June 21st, 2016, 01:48 AM   #4
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Smile

Quote:
“Hi Larry,
I found that the easiest way to get a boeckl is to learn the Loop jump. Get the loop perfect, by jumping them as many times in a combination. It will set your body posture. Once muscles and body are set then adding the extra half rotation is childs play.”
Hey Jim, I can understand why you say that. If you look closely at Leroy Hick’s Double Boeckl (by the way I saw him skate that routine live in 1975) he is actually doing a kind of “hook double loop”. He kind of twist violently at take off ( approx ½ revolution) then with his back almost going forwards he throws the double loop. But let me tell you very few people ever performed this jump in competition. Most people just went for the Double Axel. I think Randy Vortman was the only other guy I saw throw the double Boeckl and I think at that time he was a sophomore man. Him and Dale Cartensen battled neck and neck all year long. Dale won Regionals and Nationals that year. Both were from Northern California.

It’s amazing Leroy’s name keeps popping up. I’m glad he made this video. He was the best “Singles Skater/Man” I ever saw skate, personally. But of course Jim Bray was more fun to watch…lol! And Natalie (a girl was in a class all to herself).

Quote:
“Next paragraph is a 2 step take off and it looks cool and feels cool, starting off on opposite foot and opposite lean then do a change of foot and edge and jump in smooth execution:”
Without a doubt. If you look at Robbie Wollard in 1958 it appears he is flying down the rink. How exciting. He sets up on the LIF edge, glides powerfully onto the RIF and pops that jump, beautifully which appears he retains all his take off speed during landing. That is hard to do! Also Robbie’s jump is more square at take off. He’s basically square to the line of travel at take off (his right shoulder never goes past the direction of travel), which makes his body not contorted during rotation. The “check” motion is clean and square/three turn in the sky so much easier and the axis of rotation straight up and down till/throughout the landing of the jump. It’s a beautiful jump. I would love to have seen this jump at speed.

These videos truly shows a
Quote:
“Lost Art Of roller skating Jumping”
. I doubt if anybody (girl or boy) in America throws the Double Boeckl.

Larry O and thanks Jim for the reply. I loved it.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 04:10 AM   #5
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Default My pleasure

Larry,
You're welcome! It was my pleasure.

I loved doing the Boeckl, but I don't know why I never did it in competition. It was freaking easy once the loop was learned but not all that common of a jump.

I can't wait till I can go back skating. My weight is still dropping but I have a ways to go. I won't go till I get my weight under 200 lbs and after I retire. By the time I retire I expect to be about 170 to 180 lbs. To date I have dropped 50 lbs. From 310 to 260. I was about 300 lbs when I did the mapes vid several years back. I know I can do all my single jumps and 1.5 jumps almost immediately and after a few hours I should be able to hit my double mapes and the rest of my doubles over several sessions as I regain my balance.

The Boeckl seems like a trademark jump I want to do. It will be fun to fly again.
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Old June 21st, 2016, 05:01 AM   #6
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Well Jim,

I truly hope we meet up in the future sometime. I’m a little bit heavy but not bad. I weighed myself today at work on a company scale used for ballasting Helium Balloons, one of my coworkers, who is very young and bright and plays Ice Hockey was laughing at me because we never use these precision (+-.01 lbs) scales for weighing our selves. We only use them for determining how much lift a Helium Balloon can lift. I weighed in at 170.23 lbs with all my clothes on and work boots on. If I lost 10 lbs that would help tremendously in my jumping.

I was thinking about what Tommi said, and Bob and from watching all the Novice men at Nationals, it’s really quite embarrassing when you think about it, but I think even I owe myself one last embarrassment. So, who knows maybe someday we will meet up in competition. You just never know. I too think I could hit a few of the doubles I once had, but that just might be a dream. Most of those Novice men only have a double mapes and double toewalley. That’s it and they look a lot younger than us. So why do we think we could be any better at 61, LOL!

Sincerely,

Larry O
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Old June 21st, 2016, 10:01 AM   #7
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Larry,
We can do it. I know I can hit all my doubles again: Mapes, Toe Walley, Flip, Lutz, Loop, Salchow, Boeckl, all of which were very easy and consistent for me. Well Not sure if I can get the double axel since it was difficult for me. And my triples... not going to try the triples.

I was able to get my double mapes at 235 lbs but it was very difficult. My best weight for jumping is about 165 to 175 lbs. I am close to 6'.
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 07:41 AM   #8
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Dear Jim,

I’m very glad so many older people (lol!) are so negative about older people jumping and spinning. The last meet of the year at Fountain Valley, Ca had only one Novice Man and that was it for the boys at the Sophmore and above competition level. No boys in sophomore, Junior or Senior, World Cup or whatever. So, there is not a lot of older boys jumping in Southern California which I cannot understand at all????? It just blows my mind. It’s like I’m in a different world or something…lol! I cannot understand it…lol!

In fact, I know everybody is at regionals, but the other day I was practicing at Fountain Valley, Ca and there were about 9 girls still practicing and pros giving lessons and I stopped for a second and looked around. I was the only boy in the rink? And even when I see the boys, they seem like they are all older, like maybe 30-40 years old and none of them ever do freestyle. So, what I was thinking there is absolutely no older boys at Fountain Valley who do freestyle, not even for fun and games. I put myself in the category of boys who jump for “fun and games”…lol!

There are a lot of girls and many somewhat younger, who do solo dance at Fountain Valley, but the difference is many of them play with the freestyle. Many know how to spin and some are just learning or playing around with single jumps. So down deep these girls either have skated freestyle in their younger years or want to learn how to do freestyle. And I find that amazing for a Rink that is predominately a Dance Rink!

I’m really slow about jumping because I owe it to myself to give Dance a chance to be the best that I can be. But in do time I want to throw a few doubles and hopefully I can learn to do a Camel again. I wasn’t a good spinner, but I had a strong OF camel and a weak OB.

Sincerely,

Larry O..thanks for the conversation.

P.S. I'm not sure I want or pray for you to jump again, but if you do, be careful. The reason I say that was because I had to give up skating because I hurt myself. I told me pro what my problem was, which I think I tore some ligaments in my left knee and he agreed and I walked out of that skating rink and never skated again. I don't want to hurt myself again, so I approach freestyle with as much common sense as I can muster because I don't want to give up skating again. It's a dangerous game we play when we jump!
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 10:30 AM   #9
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Larry,
I will skate again. I did hurt myself but it was because I was too heavy to avoid a fall (well several falls). The first one I snapped my left arm is several places. The next fall caused a severe concussion. My head hit the floor and I could not move or breath. I could see and think. No pain just looking up and feeling some panic because I couldn't breath. my 2 hopes: That a guy would not give me mouth to mouth and that I was not bleeding all over that concrete floor. That fall caused severe vertigo for years after. When I moved to Tallahassee I came home with floor and wall burns on my arms and knees from races. For being over 300 lbs I was the second fastest person on the floor till I hit the wall. but my wife took it too hard and almost caused me to divorce her. She took my skates and tossed them. Can you believe it, she tossed over $1000 of skates. She said I am too heavy and dangerous to skate. She was right, but did she have to toss my skates. That was about 3 years ago.

I will retire a second time in 4 years. I may keep working for a few years beyond that to pay off my house and other bills. But by then I should be back under 180 lbs. I will buy another pair of skates, or refurbish my old super deluxe plates which I had stored away in a box and she didn't realize I had them. This time I will get a good pair boots that can flex enough. The 297 is what I am interested in or go back to a retro 220. My wife won't like it but that's tuff poop. I expect some fun in my life.

All that said, it is dangerous and my wife was right and wrong from tossing my skates. I still want to jump. I was good. All I need is some muscle tone, weight loss and equipment. My muscle memory is perfect. I can feel the jumps physically when I think about each one. No hesitation, they are there. I am not afraid, even though I should be. I don't care about fear I want to jump.

You may ask why I first gave up skating. I did it for my first wife who said it was my skating or our marriage. So I gave up skating for her, and then she divorced me several years and several 10's of lbs later. I won't make that mistake again.
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Old June 22nd, 2016, 10:34 AM   #10
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Larry,
I loved dance almost as much as freestyle. It's great you are going to do both. I am 62 and I just want to skate and compete again. Go for it. Just make sure you are physically fit enough to do it.

Best advice I can give you (which may be debatable as good advice), is to do everything as you did as a youngster and without fear. Put everything into it.

Best of Luck
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 05:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
“This time I will get a good pair of boots that can flex enough. The 297 is what I am interested in or go back to a retro 220.”

Dear Jim,

I am going to have a little debate with you on boots. I have boots on my mind. I was thinking about buying a new pair, but then I thought maybe I should save the money for next year’s Regionals…LOL!

Anyways, I really only had one pair of boots and one pair of plates in my 7 year skating career. The boots recommended to me by my pro/owner of the rink were the Gold Stars, which I think are called 375 Reidell.

The Gold Star boots were just introduced back in 1973. I was the first person in our rink to get those boots and my pro was not going to recommend them to anybody else, but once I got my pair two other people wanted them.

My pro also recommended they be custom fit. He told me he didn’t recommend custom boots for most people but thought I could benefit from them. I did…lol! Custom boots are the only way to go!

Also Synder just came out with the Imperial Skate back then and again, my pro/owner of the rink said “Larry I think you will like these skates” so I bought them….lol,i.e… my mother bought them. And she didn’t make a lot of money back them.

To break in these boots I almost had to bust/break them, It took about 2 months of constant beating. I really tried to break these boots. I actually broke the first pair of boots and my Pro ordered another custom pair for free.

Anyway once you broke in the Gold Stars, they were a beautiful boots and the Imperial skate was a dream. I really liked the quick action and the Imperial Skate and the custom boots made it possible to go from a Plate size 9 to a Plate size 8. I think this was another benefit. Because a custom boot made the actual size of my boot/normally a size 8 to a size 7.5, which meant the plate size went down from Plate Size 9 to plate size 8.

I think this made me a better skater have a shorter wheel base and custom made boots made controlling plate actions more precise.

One of the girls at the rink talked to me today, I’m slowly getting to know all the club members and she pointed out she just bought a new pair of 297s boots and she couldn’t believe how flexible and soft the boots were. I question if these boots or the 220s boot is really the correct boot for freestyle. It might be, but I question it???? They seem too flexible to be used in freestyle????

I think a lot of people want a softer more flexible boot, but I wonder if really a freestyle skater should be using a stiffer boot. Sheryl, Cheryl (?) said her first boots were the 336 and they were too stiff for her. Cheryl is not a freestyle skater and I would classify her as a beginner skater, but a member of the Fountain Valley Skating Club, Ca.

I personally have a pair or Ice boots, Jacksons rated for quadruples and they are too stiff, but I can skate in them even though they are too stiff. I have my original skates/boots and have been told they can be rebuilt/ the torn leather inside the boot for $250.00 plus shipping.

Although my Jackson Boots are too stiffl I’m wonder if I should try to rebuild the my original Custom fit Gold Stars (375) from the 70’s, get another pair of boots just for Dance or just live with the Jackson and save the money to go to regionals next year. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions..lol!

Even though Jackson are too stiff, I do think there are a lot of benefits from a stiff boot when jumping or even spinning. I actually think the stiffer boots make me jump higher and straigher and keep me on balance. With a soft boot, I wouldn't have the control of the skate like a stiffer boot would give. I think stiffer means better control, more precise skating and better vertical take offs. All Important if you are really going to jump high and give the jump everything you got...lol!. Which is how one should skate. If you "pussy" foot around when jumping that is when you fall and get hurt. When you really go for it you usually don't get hurt. You just fall hard but usually it don't hurt.

When you slip and fall that's when you break things. And that usually happens when you are unsure of the jump and take a very conservative approach to the jump. That's why I preach a lot of dance, strong edges and jumping as much as you can off skates so when you jump on skates you know what you are trying to do, land on the ROB skate and not fall.

Sincerely,

Larry O and God Bless you and hope to see you skating some day.
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Old June 23rd, 2016, 09:21 AM   #12
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Hi Larry,
I did try the gold star. Worse boot I ever did have. I grew up on the 220, and when I started back the new 220 was much more stiff than the 220 of years past. I could handle a retro 220. As for needing stiff; I had good ankles and I didn't need something to hold me up or support me.

As for falling because of not being sure... Yep that happens, but not with me. With me it was debris on the floor each time where I was injured except for the speed skating. I hit a slick spot and could not correct in time, not to mention I was a bit top or should I say gut heavy.
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