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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old June 8th, 2016, 11:48 AM   #1
Derrick
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Default 360 two foot base jump

Well I finally passed what I call the "Hokey Pokey Test" That is when they say turn yourself around try to jump a two footed 360. That is, feet together, not coming off another rotation, just jump it. Once you can do that and land pretty well you should be able to do it rolling. I don't think their are any further technical difficulties just the guts to do it.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 05:52 PM   #2
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Default Monkey Jump

Here's my off skate 360 practice. The weights are used to emulate skate weight. With my usual self-analisis.

I'm calling it a monkey jump because I look a bit ape like. I may even be shaped a little..... well never mind.

Anyway my feet are too far appart. I think what I'm doing her is getting in the air then immediately taking a stable landing stance. Not a good stance, just stable. Prolly cause this stance will still land if I under rotate a bit, or even have some unchecked rotation.

I do feel that if I did this on skate I wouldn't die or anything, but I would like it a bit cleaner.

I did it without the weights and I felt it was a little cleaner but I didn't have time to take vid. It really doesn't matter anyway as I'll have the weight in the rink.

Anyone know any secrets to getting straghter, other than just doing it?

I was surprised, yes more surprised than pleased, at how high I get. If I take it frame by frame I'm higher than I feel like I'm getting. Some of this is due to my legs being all bent though.

Well again if anyone has helpful suggestions (other than just giving up) have at it.
https://youtu.be/P9xiG5Gab4Q
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Old June 8th, 2016, 06:00 PM   #3
inverse137
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Don't wind up so much.

go down at the knees, do not bend at the waist, as you come up, rotate the hips and chest. Left arm straight into the shoulder as the shoulder rotates, right arm across and in. Keep everything tight. Feet together, hands in.

The left arm is important. if you stood with your left side against a wall you would not want your left hand to crash into the wall. it pulls straight as the shoulder rotates.

Wait...you're jumping reverse....swap left for right in the above.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 06:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by inverse137 View Post
Don't wind up so much.

go down at the knees, do not bend at the waist, as you come up, rotate the hips and chest. Left arm straight into the shoulder as the shoulder rotates, right arm across and in. Keep everything tight. Feet together, hands in.

The left arm is important. if you stood with your left side against a wall you would not want your left hand to crash into the wall. it pulls straight as the shoulder rotates.

Wait...you're jumping reverse....swap left for right in the above.
Thanks for the great response. I'm trying it now.
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Old June 8th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #5
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Thanks for the great response. I'm trying it now.
Well I have some completely over zealous me crashing to the floor video. I haven't seen it so I may not post it. .But I'll keep trying. When I attempt to follow the instructions I pitch forward and become off balance. I have a book with pictures that shows me what you are talking about so I think I understand it, just not able yet.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 02:10 AM   #6
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Wait...you're jumping reverse....swap left for right in the above.
CW was a bit easier. I'll get new vid tomorrow.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 06:04 AM   #7
larryoracing
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Smile This is an excellent post.


As always I disagree with Inverse 37, but that doesn’t mean I’m right. I could be dead wrong…LOL!

1) Why are you doing this “Base Jump 360”?

2) I know you have not read my posts, because if you had, you wouldn’t be doing this jump as coached by Bob. Bob is the guy who is probably a champion and excellent coach. The guy who posted this video as well as 50 others videos on you-tube.

3) I love this video, but with a little twist. And I think the little things are what separate the losers from the winners…lol!

4) Remember you are trying to learn a mapes jump. Why in the heck would you try to do a 360 rolling forward? Why not backwards???? I’m sure you know how to roller skate backwards. If you don’t you should not be jumping. It just doesn’t make any sense, right?

4a) It’s Ok to do this base jump 360 rolling forward, but remember the goal is to do it backwards. Understand????LOL! So, whenever you do a base jump be imagining yourself skating backwards. It makes a big difference. Get your mind tuned/focused on how you will execute the jump on skates.

I got a feeling 90% of jumping is just mental. Picture the jump in your mind and you’re halfway to the point of actually doing it…LOL!

99.99% of the jump you will ever learn take off going backwards except the Axel and the Boekel. The waltz jump is a precursor of the axel…ie..it’s in the same class. And you can use this base jump 360 for learning a waltz jump, axel or double axel if you remember what is the intent of this 360 base jump and how does it applies to the jump you are actually trying to learn/perform?

5) I would practice the base jump 360 with no rotations. Just learn how to jump straight up into the air and straight down on two feet, but remember the intent is to land on one foot. Eventually get to the point where you are jumping into the air with two feet but landing on one foot.. In your case Derrick it is the LOB landing/off skates.

When you get to this point remember we are trying to do a mapes. So instead of jumping with both feet in the base jump 360 try to bring your right foot back for balance and place it on the floor behind you as if you were doing a toe pick stab mapes and jump into the air with no rotations and land on the LOB.

You are getting closer. Now add the rotation. Then go do it on skates…LOL!

This idea or principle is what I spend 20-30 minutes a day practicing each jump that I will skate, but I’m practicing them with no rotations on skates. You get the benefit of jumping off an edge and landing on an edge which is basically the same edge you will land on every jump. In Derricks case it is the LOB landing. .

You might ask how long I will do this. Until I have the courage to do the jump with rotations. I have been practicing the modified 360 base jump on skates for every jump I will learn for about 2 weeks now, which is about 6 practice times, including Koffee Klutch/Fountain Valley skating session for people over 30 years old, which have been about 3 sessions.

I would like to end with a story about Donald Jackson, World Champion on Ice skates and the first man to ever do a triple Lutz on ice skates. The feat was never duplicated until 12 years later. He won the World Championship in 1962.

Donald Jackson could do a double axel, completed 70% of the time, but his coach wanted a 92% success rate to win the 1962 World Championship. So they set out on a course to get a 92% success rate. In order to gain this 22% increase his pro decided Donald needed a better take off edge. Donald was not allowed to perform a double axel for 6 weeks. All he did was practice the LOB going into the jump and the ROF before takeoff, since he jumped CW (clockwise).

When you practice jumps without rotation you are following in the steps of a World Champion. The rotation will come later. Just learn how to take off, Jumping very high into the air and land on one skate, with no rotations first. You might practice for weeks or months before you get this down, where you can actually perform a single rotation jump. But remember the reason you practice this way is not for singles, but for doubles. In Donald’s case it was for 2.5 rotations in the double axel.

Sincerely,

Larry O and my best wishes always.

Remember it's not what you do for yourself but what you do for others that gives you most success in the world and happiness. I just made that up...LOL! Larry O

Last edited by larryoracing; June 9th, 2016 at 07:11 AM.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 02:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post

1) Why are you doing this “Base Jump 360”?

2) I know you have not read my posts, because if you had, you wouldn’t be doing this jump as coached by Bob. Bob is the guy who is probably a champion and excellent coach. The guy who posted this video as well as 50 others videos on you-tube.

3) I love this video, but with a little twist. And I think the little things are what separate the losers from the winners…lol!

4) Remember you are trying to learn a mapes jump. Why in the heck would you try to do a 360 rolling forward? Why not backwards???? I’m sure you know how to roller skate backwards. If you don’t you should not be jumping. It just doesn’t make any sense, right?

4a) It’s Ok to do this base jump 360 rolling forward, but remember the goal is to do it backwards. Understand????LOL! So, whenever you do a base jump be imagining yourself skating backwards. It makes a big difference. Get your mind tuned/focused on how you will execute the jump on skates.

I got a feeling 90% of jumping is just mental. Picture the jump in your mind and you’re halfway to the point of actually doing it…LOL!

99.99% of the jump you will ever learn take off going backwards except the Axel and the Boekel. The waltz jump is a precursor of the axel…ie..it’s in the same class. And you can use this base jump 360 for learning a waltz jump, axel or double axel if you remember what is the intent of this 360 base jump and how does it applies to the jump you are actually trying to learn/perform?

5) I would practice the base jump 360 with no rotations. Just learn how to jump straight up into the air and straight down on two feet, but remember the intent is to land on one foot. Eventually get to the point where you are jumping into the air with two feet but landing on one foot.. In your case Derrick it is the LOB landing/off skates.
1) Becacause it is next in my book "How to do Freestyle Without Really Trying" jk the book is actually called "From Zero to Axel". Also, there is a bit of competition between me and my youngest to who gets the first rolling 360. It keeps him wanting to come with me.

2) and (3) I'm not sure what video you are talking about. Got a link? Or what thread us it on so I can look it up?

4) Agreed, the plan is to do it rolling backwards. Landing ROB eventually. I switched my rotation to match my best waltz jump.

5) Isn't the waltz-jump the accepted way to practice rotated jump landings?
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Old June 9th, 2016, 03:00 PM   #9
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Default So much better

Quote:
Originally Posted by inverse137 View Post
Don't wind up so much.

go down at the knees, do not bend at the waist, as you come up, rotate the hips and chest. Left arm straight into the shoulder as the shoulder rotates, right arm across and in. Keep everything tight. Feet together, hands in.

The left arm is important. if you stood with your left side against a wall you would not want your left hand to crash into the wall. it pulls straight as the shoulder rotates.

Wait...you're jumping reverse....swap left for right in the above.
Hey thanks, I know I still need improvement but wow this is soooo much better. I'm pretty happy with it for the moment. Arm control is always an issue for me. And I could stick the landing better. But all in all its pretty good. Anything else you see that I could work on for this element.

edit https://youtu.be/JjXGAmpiEh0

yea, I'm still pitched forward sightly. Compensated by my backside stuck out.

Last edited by Derrick; June 9th, 2016 at 04:24 PM. Reason: oh you may want the video
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Old June 9th, 2016, 04:02 PM   #10
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The purpose of the two-foot off skates drill is to work the arm motion, the hip and shoulder rotation.

Just concentrate on the left hand (right hand for you) pulling in to the shoulder and the right hand (left hand for you) coming across and in. Again, if you were standing next to a wall with your left side (right side for you) you wouldn't want your hand to hit the wall.

Once you are good with this, we start working a wrap. you do everything the same but now you'll let the feet cross at the ankle.

I'm from the 80s. I like a higher wrap for me. It's just what I'm used to. But I teach a lower wrap.

Two years ago I had knee surgery. I tore the patella tendon pretty good. It took about 18-months after the surgery but the knee is healed. My head not so much. I lost my nerve to jump. Anyway, I was working an axel and to "pump the jump" I'd start rotating the upper body too soon. I'd bring that left hand around. It just messes up the mechanics of the jump. I'm getting it back under control but there is still a little of the rotation that shouldn't be there.

https://youtu.be/Ol-gdMHgUGc

Work it to where you can setup in that L (right hand in front, left hand to the side,) jump up with the feet together and get the rotation from the arms, hips and shoulders, and then land straight down without pitching forward. It's all about building muscle memory. Nothing else.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 04:28 PM   #11
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I edited my last message with my latest video before I saw this message. I'm getting closer and a I changed my rotation to match my waltz. I wanted to show the progress but forgot to attach the vid it's there now.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 04:31 PM   #12
Derrick
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The purpose of the two-foot off skates drill is to work the arm motion, the hip and shoulder rotation.

Just concentrate on the left hand (right hand for you) pulling in to the shoulder and the right hand (left hand for you) coming across and in. Again, if you were standing next to a wall with your left side (right side for you) you wouldn't want your hand to hit the wall.

Once you are good with this, we start working a wrap. you do everything the same but now you'll let the feet cross at the ankle.

I'm from the 80s. I like a higher wrap for me. It's just what I'm used to. But I teach a lower wrap.

Two years ago I had knee surgery. I tore the patella tendon pretty good. It took about 18-months after the surgery but the knee is healed. My head not so much. I lost my nerve to jump. Anyway, I was working an axel and to "pump the jump" I'd start rotating the upper body too soon. I'd bring that left hand around. It just messes up the mechanics of the jump. I'm getting it back under control but there is still a little of the rotation that shouldn't be there.

https://youtu.be/Ol-gdMHgUGc

Work it to where you can setup in that L (right hand in front, left hand to the side,) jump up with the feet together and get the rotation from the arms, hips and shoulders, and then land straight down without pitching forward. It's all about building muscle memory. Nothing else.
That looks awesome, I actually like landing my waltz with some unchecked rotating. It looks good and feels good. But I don't have to please a judge.
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Old June 9th, 2016, 04:35 PM   #13
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I like your next to wall practice idea. I did a couple, but I'm going to put this one on soak cycle for the rest of the day. I'll try some more close to the wall tomorrow.
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Old June 11th, 2016, 06:53 AM   #14
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Smile Hey Derrick I just wanted to convey one simple idea.

1) Stand on your right foot like you were going to do a waltz jump, left foot back. Don't bend over, don't rotate or do anything just stand on that right foot like you were setting up/take off for a waltz jump.

2) Now change feet, bring your left foot down and step on it, right foot forward.

That is the landing for the waltz jump/LOB.

That is the waltz jump and nothing more.

Sincerely,

Larry O

P.S. The next video is a long one trying to impress upon the freestyler to stand up straight and don't over rotate the jump/pull yourself off axis. Nice easy rotation over a simple imaginary line through the center of your body. You don't have to force any jump, the rotation will come easily if you are on axis and over the top of your skate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_1hfR9T5s
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Old June 11th, 2016, 12:17 PM   #15
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1) Stand on your right foot like you were going to do a waltz jump, left foot back. Don't bend over, don't rotate or do anything just stand on that right foot like you were setting up/take off for a waltz jump.

2) Now change feet, bring your left foot down and step on it, right foot forward.

That is the landing for the waltz jump/LOB.

That is the waltz jump and nothing more.

Sincerely,

Larry O

P.S. The next video is a long one trying to impress upon the freestyler to stand up straight and don't over rotate the jump/pull yourself off axis. Nice easy rotation over a simple imaginary line through the center of your body. You don't have to force any jump, the rotation will come easily if you are on axis and over the top of your skate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_1hfR9T5s
Yes, yes but I use the waltz to practice landing and presenting (cause I'm real cheesy like that) not a straight up jump to practice the waltz. I can already do the waltz. But I do tend to force the rotation a bit. Working on it. Can't do session this week so I'm planning on getting some tennis court vid.

Last edited by Derrick; June 12th, 2016 at 02:54 AM.
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