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Roller Derby Forum Discussions about banked-track and flat-track roller derby events, teams, skaters, and training methods.

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Old August 24th, 2015, 05:08 PM   #21
llama of death
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Seems to me the question at hand is grip not how much the skate can assist the wheels in keeping it (which is a real thing, not going to say it isn't). I am assuming the OP knows how to skate decently given the description she gave.

I find for polished concrete no amount of softer wheels will gain grip. Soft = Grippy is a slight misnomer.

Hardness is all about how much the wheel deforms under your weight with the goal of conforming to the surface you are skating on. If the surface is asphalt and you are on a soft wheel it will smooth out the bumps and get better grip than a hard wheel which will not conform to the rough surface.

If like the OP is asking, she is on polished concrete, then the wheel cannot deform more to conform to the shape of the surface. It will not help much if at all to have a softer wheel.

Without knowing your skate style personally nor your level of ability, the answer is to try a medium-soft wide and a medium-soft narrow wheel to see if you can get that grip back. Around here our skaters like the new mixed-urethane wheels on polished concrete. I get plenty of grip from thin urethane (ie: large hub) wheel with medium to hard urethane (I am 175lbs).

If your dead set on soft, try Bones turbos or Zombies in ~80a.
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Old August 24th, 2015, 05:17 PM   #22
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Also, you may need to change your skating a little. I found when I moved onto 98a on our home court (everyone else is on 92a). I slid all over the place until I learned to keep my feet closer under me. Smaller plows, less lean on crossovers.

It amounted to keeping more weight on the wheels. Now I can grip when I want or slide out to go around someone with little change in posture, they usually don't see it coming.
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Old August 25th, 2015, 08:59 AM   #23
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Fifth season in derby, primarily jam. 130 pounds, currently skating Bont Hybrid Carbon/Venus. We just went to uncoated polished concrete from sport court, and I'm having trouble staying upright. I was relatively fast and happy on the sport court on either 94 Ikons or 95 Zombies.

First I went to Poisons. Then 4 Poison, 4 of my old Ghosts (slim 80s). I still can't get to a full sprint. Borrowed someone's outdoor Kryptos (78). A little better but I'm still sliding several feet in every turn and not even at full speed. I have good form (I've been told) and I'm consciously focusing on full 8 wheel contact on every step, but is there anything more I can do? Are there softer wheels that would fit my plate? I already skate with loose trucks, and I switched to softer cushions.

Everyone under ~150 pounds is having similar problems, but I want to solve it, dammit.
What does " I already skate with loose trucks" actually mean?
What is your way of measuring the looseness of your suspension?

Can you hold your skate with both hands on opposite sides of front axle, and with wheels up, facing toward you, then wrap your fingers around boot with heels of thumbs on front wheel edges to squeeze wheels toward sole (one side at a time) enough to reach wheel bite point?

If not, your suspension is NOT optimized for full freedom of action, which, BTW, should still have decent snap back (no wiggle) at neutral.

Narrower wheels will give you less leverage with which to work the action, so it is critical to tune the action's ramp up resistance to be very gradual all the way up until just before the wheel bite point. This is not so easy to achieve.

I have no experience with Venus plates, but a good starting point would be to replace one or both cushion retainers with flat washers that do not wrap around the corner of the cushion, or flip retainers over, as long as protruding retainer lips dont hit anything as truc swings.

If narrower wheels help, then you need to seek narrow wheels that are not just soft, but that also have more grippy urethane formulas that match up well with polished concrete.

In addition, the hubs should be larger and the urethane layer thin.
I suggest that a set of 49mm hub Roll Line Helium or Hydrogen wheels might be perfect at 83A & 80A respectively. The thinner urethane makes them roll like a harder wheel (faster than their durometer # would indicate) and it also keeps the hub pressure more tightly concentrated right under the hub with less mushiness, despite the soft formulas.

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Old August 31st, 2015, 04:17 PM   #24
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Can you hold your skate with both hands on opposite sides of front axle, and with wheels up, facing toward you, then wrap your fingers around boot with heels of thumbs on front wheel edges to squeeze wheels toward sole (one side at a time) enough to reach wheel bite point?
I don't like to argue with a brick wall, but this is not truly relevant to the concept of grip. As long as all the wheels can be kept in contact with the surface via truck action, bending at the ankle or some combination of the two the grip is optimal. I personally know several speed skaters in my area who can skate circles around everyone else on hard wheels with no detectable action in their skate.

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If not, your suspension is NOT optimized for full freedom of action, which, BTW, should still have decent snap back (no wiggle) at neutral.
Irrelevant to OPs question.
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Narrower wheels will give you less leverage with which to work the action, so it is critical to tune the action's ramp up resistance to be very gradual all the way up until just before the wheel bite point. This is not so easy to achieve.
OK. Then let her skate what she has the way she needs to to best use the gear she owns.


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If narrower wheels help, then you need to seek narrow wheels that are not just soft, but that also have more grippy urethane formulas that match up well with polished concrete.
Useful info.


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In addition, the hubs should be larger and the urethane layer thin.
I suggest that a set of 49mm hub Roll Line Helium or Hydrogen wheels might be perfect at 83A & 80A respectively. The thinner urethane makes them roll like a harder wheel (faster than their durometer # would indicate) and it also keeps the hub pressure more tightly concentrated right under the hub with less mushiness, despite the soft formulas.
yes, this though I haven't personally used them.
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Try renting wheels here via their try before you buy program. http://www.2n1skateshoppe.com/2N1-Wh...ary_p_537.html
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Old September 5th, 2015, 08:16 AM   #25
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llama,
What "brick wall" are you referring to? Did you lose your wheel grip and slide into one recently?

If you start your post by saying that testing a suspension's freedom of action with your hands "is not truly relevant to the concept of grip" then everything you subsequently say in your post becomes highly suspect.

Aside from urethane formula and firmness, NOTHING has a greater impact on wheel grip than the tuning of the suspension.

"Bending the ankle" is NOT what you do to keep the wheels all down and equally pressing on the rolling surface. "Bending the ankle" is for STEERING the skate, and if the ACTION does not properly equalize the changing downward force that steering adjustments cause, and allow the wheels to ALL stay down, despite the force variations from bending ankle (or leg) to alter the steering direction, then the optimum grip cannot be maintained. ONLY the proper DISTRIBUTION of force coming downward onto the plate is what maintains optimum grip, and it is the job of the suspension to accomplish this -- NOT THE ANKLE.

If she has a suspension poorly tuned for best grip, then STEP #1 is obviously to get the suspension OF HER CURRENT SKATES optimally TUNED for best grip --- NOT irrelevant at all

Yes, you are correct that serious skaters with serious skills can still maintain grip even when the H/W is not fully optimized, but they can get EVEN BETTER grip performance when the H/W IS fully optimized too.

However, those of us who are less gifted and well trained in the speed skating skills department, will gain the most wheel grip improvement and advantage by tweaking our suspensions out to give maximum possible freedom of action, but without setting them to be all loosey-goosey when they are at the near neutral position.

Your attempt to school me on whether or not quad skate suspension tuning significantly affects wheel grip might be a taken bit more graciously, and be more appreciated, had you yourself gone to school on this subject a bit longer and done bit more homework as well, before you start doing any sentence by sentence dissections of any of my posts on this subject.

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Old September 6th, 2015, 09:28 AM   #26
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I agree with both of you. But Richard, ankle articulation is a MUST to retain grip when action and suspension cannot.

The more grip present the more action you can use on your skate, as you near the grip threshold the action force needed to increase turning will increase to the point that the floors grip will not allow the small force increase without the skating resulting in a tippy / slide out scenario. Thus the ankle and lateral forces exerted in rink environments are different from outdoor use.

You basically have two options available here. Attempt to get the max turn available and keep weight evenly displaced, or load up as hard as possible on the toes for more pressure to get better bite into the skating surface. Both work, but the advantages are a bit different. The toe striding is fast if one is conditioned for such, at the expense if stamina because of the extra stresses it puts on muscles. It also causes fatigue faster which screws up our form and makes calf muscles hate you.

I have almost never had this problem outdoor skating as outdoor grip is substantially more in most cases.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:03 AM   #27
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I agree with both of you. But Richard, ankle articulation is a MUST to retain grip when action and suspension cannot.

The more grip present the more action you can use on your skate, as you near the grip threshold the action force needed to increase turning will increase to the point that the floors grip will not allow the small force increase without the skating resulting in a tippy / slide out scenario. Thus the ankle and lateral forces exerted in rink environments are different from outdoor use.

You basically have two options available here. Attempt to get the max turn available and keep weight evenly displaced, or load up as hard as possible on the toes for more pressure to get better bite into the skating surface. Both work, but the advantages are a bit different. The toe striding is fast if one is conditioned for such, at the expense if stamina because of the extra stresses it puts on muscles. It also causes fatigue faster which screws up our form and makes calf muscles hate you.

I have almost never had this problem outdoor skating as outdoor grip is substantially more in most cases.
First of all, depending on the stiffness of the suspension, there are two main possible results that a LATERAL ankle lean can produce.

When suspension is very firm, ankle lean produces a COMBINATION of a turning result -AND- a LIFTING of the outer wheels result, which does strongly affect grip in a detrimental way.

When suspension is tuned for maximum freedom, with a minimum amount of resistance ramp up through the truck's full swing range, ankle lean ONLY gives STEERING change and DOES NOT significantly lift the outer wheels from the floor or reduce the downward pressure on them very much at all.

So all the things we are pointing out in this thread will VARY according to how the skaters tune the firmness and freedom of their suspensions.

My points are based on how things work when suspensions are tuned for optimum freedom, which I assert gives a skater the ability to more easily achieve and maintain maximum possible grip. When the suspension is set stiff and ramps up resistance too quickly, optimum grip is much harder to maintain easier to lose.

I acknowledge that at times you must adjust your lateral ankle angle when you start to lose grip, but that is mainly to avoid sliding out and falling. This situation forces you to steer the skate away from your desired track in order to REDUCE the centrifugal FORCE and allow more of the wheels' potential contact patch area to get back down in better (more forcefull) contact with the floor.

As for extending your ankle forward (with calf) to increase the load on the front axle relative to the rear axle, I do not think this kind of uneven loading improves the skates total floor grip beyond what equal (front-to-back) axlel loading can give.

IMO, this would mainly just shed speed, as the front wheels' urethane will get squished down more into the floor to a higher per cent of their thickness, and cause front wheels to DRAG more.

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Old September 6th, 2015, 01:59 PM   #28
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Loading up on the front wheels during a hard crossover will increase grip FAR beyond what the 4 wheels can accomplish with even weight distribution in many situations. I bet all my gear on it. The exception is that the wheels urethane has reached its maximum shear strength and reguardless of increased pressure it will waffle/deform or slide. Softer wheels like poisons can reach this. Harder wheels dont do it .. at least at my weight. The precursor to this is the skate should turn better than it is actually turning, where more plate lean or lateral force does little to nothing to improve the turning radius.

The weight distribution of an articulating ankle depends on the user and the overall plate location, footwear, skating surface, along with to an extent of the wheels used. Freedom of action only goes so far. I have skated my arius without its cushions, pretty crazy turny. You wouldnt believe it. Though grip didnt change for the better at all.

I also skate regularly with a skater who weighs about 135 (85A purple super cushions cranked WAY down vs my 78A yellow super cushions with spinabke top retainer)worn the same wheels as myself and other skaters his weight all of have used the same plate angle, 10 deg. I cannot out corner him with a looser suspension. I do not get better grip because the suspension is less restrictive. I have also skated his skates vs mine, my findings is that his tighter suspension is actually easier to hold the floor, reguardless of its "tipping" ability to the locked down suspension. Because my legs are used for turning by foot position and lateral speed and strength over the wheels trying to create an angle of attack against the rolling surface.

When attempting to corner at the limits body suspension more than trumps a skate suspension. I get to skate other setups quite regularly, test various wheels, and let other skater crank out laps while using the same wheels on various skate setups. Theres a lot that matters with grip, but not always is a loose or "free turning" skate going to have more grip. This applies to all skates reguardless of kingpin angle. Da45 didnt help my kid be any more stuck to the floor at maximum cornering. In fact i think it hurts more than it helps once the threshold is reached.

Not being stuck up here, but maybe you have yet to skate with very high caliber skaters in a rink environment. The group I usually skate with every weekend would probably wear anyone on this forum out at a packed session.
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Old September 6th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #29
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Loading up on the front wheels during a hard crossover will increase grip FAR beyond what the 4 wheels can accomplish with even weight distribution in many situations. I bet all my gear on it. The exception is that the wheels urethane has reached its maximum shear strength and reguardless of increased pressure it will waffle/deform or slide. Softer wheels like poisons can reach this. Harder wheels dont do it .. at least at my weight. The precursor to this is the skate should turn better than it is actually turning, where more plate lean or lateral force does little to nothing to improve the turning radius.

The weight distribution of an articulating ankle depends on the user and the overall plate location, footwear, skating surface, along with to an extent of the wheels used. Freedom of action only goes so far. I have skated my arius without its cushions, pretty crazy turny. You wouldnt believe it. Though grip didnt change for the better at all.

I also skate regularly with a skater who weighs about 135 (85A purple super cushions cranked WAY down vs my 78A yellow super cushions with spinabke top retainer)worn the same wheels as myself and other skaters his weight all of have used the same plate angle, 10 deg. I cannot out corner him with a looser suspension. I do not get better grip because the suspension is less restrictive. I have also skated his skates vs mine, my findings is that his tighter suspension is actually easier to hold the floor, reguardless of its "tipping" ability to the locked down suspension. Because my legs are used for turning by foot position and lateral speed and strength over the wheels trying to create an angle of attack against the rolling surface.

When attempting to corner at the limits body suspension more than trumps a skate suspension. I get to skate other setups quite regularly, test various wheels, and let other skater crank out laps while using the same wheels on various skate setups. Theres a lot that matters with grip, but not always is a loose or "free turning" skate going to have more grip. This applies to all skates reguardless of kingpin angle. Da45 didnt help my kid be any more stuck to the floor at maximum cornering. In fact i think it hurts more than it helps once the threshold is reached.

Not being stuck up here, but maybe you have yet to skate with very high caliber skaters in a rink environment. The group I usually skate with every weekend would probably wear anyone on this forum out at a packed session.
I have skated with the Orbit Speed Skating Team for several years. here in Chicagoland, and one member was Derek Crane, who in 2011 finished in 2nd place at U.S. Nationals at two different distances.

I built him a set of ultralight quad skates for 2012 from Laser Sliders with Ultimate2 trucks mounted to Adidas F-50 soccer shoes and with an added DragonPlate carbon fiber sole stiffener sheet. The 15 kingpin suspension was fully tuned for maximum freedom of action and minimum resistance ramp up (see reversed cone PICs below).

His fastest (full sprint) lap times, compared to his prior horrible, stiff action SG Triton plates, improved by nearly one full second. He fiddled around with the Slider suspension, changing cushions and tuning it to see if he gould get it any better results, which he couldn't, ending up right back with what I had initially given him - a Semi-DA using an upper Nova tall (5/8") barrel and a reversed lower firm red SG cone cushion.

He attributed most of his improved in lap speed time to being able to maintain better grip at higher speeds going into and through the curves as a result of this much greater freedom of action suspension scheme.











So when you say => "Not being stuck up here, but maybe you have yet to skate with very high caliber skaters in a rink environment." ---
I am thinking maybe that is NOT actually a valid conclusion about me!

Whether it's inline skates or quad skates, the best total skate grip is normally accomplished when all wheels are dividing the total downward force onto the skate equally amongst them -- front to back with inlines, and left right, PLUS front to back with quads.

Mort, what shoe size do you wear? I may be able to send you a pair you can use to test what I am saying, and I suspect prove to yourself that it is accurate.

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Old September 6th, 2015, 11:37 PM   #30
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Awesome skates man! Makes me dream of going back to quads.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 03:24 AM   #31
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Sadly, 2nd place in quad nationals doesn't really mean a whole lot anymore. A friend of mine hopped on inlines for a few months and won 1st at NIRA nationals last year.

What I attribute is a specialized build vs what he had. Not some magical "free turning" setup that got him his 2nd place wins. A light skate allows for higher foot speed and increased lateral forces due to less restriction on th leg that is off the ground as it is part of the skating stroke too and can generate a lot of power and acceleration when correctly timed.

Also on those floors at where they hold these races your going on about the grip is so high its insane, if someone doesnt feel confident on floors like that its usually because they cant get that speed on normal conditions at their home rink. Or their home floor wouldn't let them have enough traction to have trained muscles at that level of exertion.

Another thing is just because someone races on skates, doesnt make them a good skater. One must posess a wide array of skills and balances. Not just go fast turn left.

What did he place in 2011 vs 2012? That 1 full second must not have done too much good as he still got second. This tells me he had a LOT of room for improvement before he ever donned those lighter skates.

There's far too much going on there to chalk it up to cushions alone. If you modified his original skate and he took 2 session to get ued to it anf then immediately posted lap times of 1 sec less, that would mean a lot more

When you race automobiles, you can turn too much. Too much turn reduces speed and efficiency. The same can happen with a quad skate. A stiffer suspension can work as well or better in some cases than a turny/soft setup. The more turning done by the plate and the less lateral movement by the skater only increases the amount of potential speed loss by using the plates action. For everyone, there is going to be a happy medium where they perform the best.

I dont know who you skate with, and really it wouldn't matter. I have skated a lot of places and the fastest people I know are still the guys I skate with on the regular. Havent gotten to skate with the Blairs yet though i hear jimmy is pretty fast and Jonathan is faster , at least a friend of mine says so as he used to get to skate with them.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 08:08 PM   #32
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He switched to inlines mid season of 2012, so he never competed in them at 2012 Nationals - in fact they are for sale to any size 10.5-11 foot speed skater who is interested.

He was and is a great all around skater at speed and in sessions.

He knows what's his skates are doing on his feet, and the whats & whys of how suspension setup changes are affecting the resulting performance of his skates.

His feet on the skates opinions on how the cushion scheme and the tweaking out of this suspension improved his skating performance, in my view, carry a lot more weight than yours do. The floor used for the improoved lap time tests was NOT a freshly coated one, and had the normal grip of a wooden floor rink.

As you already pointed out how great skaters are not so handicapped by inferior skate H/W, if he won two 2nd places at nationals on Tritons with average wheels, he no doubt must already have been be a rather exceptionally good speed skater.

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Old September 8th, 2015, 11:30 PM   #33
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Note the angle of his leg relative to the bottom of the skate. Kinda just proved the point that high level skaters don't have/use that much action when they race. Too much action causes drag and slip, not more grip. I'm am quite certain you are not the first to try the "optimized" [loose action] when speed skating.



What I wouldn't do for a high speed camera and a crane right now. Then I could take multishot image of skating stride to show that the path a pushing skate follows is nearly straight (not dead straight mind you). Unlike a car in which you match your turning radius to the desired path and apply force via tourqe/power at the tires. The push is near lateral and therefore a larger radius than the skater is following.

I may be new to quads but I did pay attention in physics classes and I do take note of every change I make in angle to the floor, action, resistance to lean, etc etc etc, as I do practice laps.
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Old September 9th, 2015, 12:05 AM   #34
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Note the angle of his leg relative to the bottom of the skate. Kinda just proved the point that high level skaters don't have/use that much action when they race. Too much action causes drag and slip, not more grip. I'm am quite certain you are not the first to try the "optimized" [loose action] when speed skating.



What I wouldn't do for a high speed camera and a crane right now. Then I could take multishot image of skating stride to show that the path a pushing skate follows is nearly straight (not dead straight mind you). Unlike a car in which you match your turning radius to the desired path and apply force via tourqe/power at the tires. The push is near lateral and therefore a larger radius than the skater is following.

I may be new to quads but I did pay attention in physics classes and I do take note of every change I make in angle to the floor, action, resistance to lean, etc etc etc, as I do practice laps.
In the PIC his weight is just arriving down onto the forward skate, and so the suspension was not yet fully engaged to the point of following the actual curve he is tracking. Plus, he is at the point of exiting the curve to head for the wall, where the shortest path to the wall will be nearer to a line than a curve.

A totally 90 lateral push can be done whether you are tracking a 3' radius arc or tracking a 30' radius arc.

At the higher speeds, all proper skating push strokes follow a curved arc track. This is true for Ice skating, inline skating and quad skating and it is only by following an arc that sakters can gain access to the essential speed boost that the centripetal acceleration of an inwardly shifting body mass, rolling along a curved arc path, can provide, regardless of the arc's radius.

No high level skater, quad or inline, tracks the curves by stringing together a series of near straight line push segments in order to form a "faceted arc" that ends up getting them 180 turned about and headed toward the opposite end of the track.

Where do you come up with these ideas Llama???? Pure rubbish.

If you want to skate the curves up on the lip edges of your inner pair of wheels, then you really don't need ANY ACTION to negotiate the curves, but don't expect to maintain optimum grip or speed that way.

It is NOT about HOW MUCH action a skater NEEDS or USES. Rather, it is about HOW LITTLE FORCE IT TAKES to get whatever degree of action a skater needs to follow their intended track at full speed on the curves.
The less force needed to work action through the curves, the MORE CONSISTENT and EQUAL the downward force on all four wheels can remain, which is critical for sustaining constantly maximum grip.

If you are going to assert that "Too much action causes drag and slip, not more grip" without including any form of an explanation of HOW & WHY you think this assertion is true, then don't expect most people to just accept that it's true.


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Old September 9th, 2015, 08:52 AM   #35
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In the PIC his weight is just arriving down onto the forward skate, and so the suspension was not yet fully engaged to the point of following the actual curve he is tracking. Plus, he is at the point of exiting the curve to head for the wall, where the shortest path to the wall will be nearer to a line than a curve.

A totally 90 lateral push can be done whether you are tracking a 3' radius arc or tracking a 30' radius arc.

At the higher speeds, all proper skating push strokes follow a curved arc track. This is true for Ice skating, inline skating and quad skating and it is only by following an arc that sakters can gain access to the essential speed boost that the centripetal acceleration of an inwardly shifting body mass, rolling along a curved arc path, can provide, regardless of the arc's radius.

No high level skater, quad or inline, tracks the curves by stringing together a series of near straight line push segments in order to form a "faceted arc" that ends up getting them 180 turned about and headed toward the opposite end of the track.

Where do you come up with these ideas Llama???? Pure rubbish.

If you want to skate the curves up on the lip edges of your inner pair of wheels, then you really don't need ANY ACTION to negotiate the curves, but don't expect to maintain optimum grip or speed that way.

It is NOT about HOW MUCH action a skater NEEDS or USES. Rather, it is about HOW LITTLE FORCE IT TAKES to get whatever degree of action a skater needs to follow their intended track at full speed on the curves.
The less force needed to work action through the curves, the MORE CONSISTENT and EQUAL the downward force on all four wheels can remain, which is critical for sustaining constantly maximum grip.

If you are going to assert that "Too much action causes drag and slip, not more grip" without including any form of an explanation of HOW & WHY you think this assertion is true, then don't expect most people to just accept that it's true.


-Armadillo

Just to chum up most of this response with a quote..

"Just because you cannot, does not mean that I cannot"

Less turning = more grip reguardless of trucks suspension or kingpin angle. Agility and maneuverability are not traction. Soft cushions deform and reduce the likelyhood a pair of axles will hold even weight distribution across them. These are trucks not an Arius which has a much more fixed swing.

This echos history it seems as prolines come in 2 flavors, art (10deg) and speed (5 deg ). Also that cushions were very firm. Many speed skaters skates would "pull" left because of the continued compressions on just the one side of the skate. Even highest quality urethane has a compression set to it. By having stiff cushions NOT made for "free turning" they made a very solid platfor to do a specific task on. You just habe to break them into your task at hand.

A solid base with stiffer action and less turning capabilities is far faster IMO. Ill outrun people in rentals skates ^.^

Too soft a suspension steals power and reduces the support for large loading forces a tired sloppy skater will need.

A suspension you speak of is great for all around stuff, but not a specialized situation such as speed skating.
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Old September 9th, 2015, 06:00 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Just to chum up most of this response with a quote..

"Just because you cannot, does not mean that I cannot"
.
Two different high level skaters have both reported significant improvement in their skates' and skating performance results from me elevating their plates' freedom of action, giving them a substantial reduction in their truck swings' ramp up resistance, while still keeping that resistance plenty adequate, and more consistently low overall as well.

So, my answer to you is:
"If they can, you can too!"
I already asked you for your foot size, in case I might have a pair of skates already set up in your size, with which you could possibly test out what I am saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Less turning = more grip reguardless of trucks suspension or kingpin angle. Agility and maneuverability are not traction. Soft cushions deform and reduce the likelyhood a pair of axles will hold even weight distribution across them. These are trucks not an Arius which has a much more fixed swing..
If by "Less turning" you mean more plate lean force needed to turn them a given amount, this assertion is totally backwards and wrong.

Turning ONLY happens when a skater applies MORE force to one side of the plate than the other side. This IMMEDIATELY screws up the "likelyhood a pair of axles will hold even weight distribution across them', and in fact it makes it IMPOSSIBLE. So the only question is HOW BIG A DISRUPTION of "even weight distribution across them" will result when the plate leans?

Well, the answer to that is determined by HOW STIFFLY the action is tuned. So, when there is "Less turning" per amount of force applied to plate, this means you need more force to reach any specific amount of turn that you need, the end result of this is that the more turning lean force that is needed, the more you will be negatively impacting the EVENNESS of force that comes down on the inner versus the outer wheel pairs, which also similarly and negatively impacts your grip.
Stiffest suspension tuning gives you the MOST UNEVENNESS of wheel loading, and the degree of this unevenness of loading often reaches the stage where the contact patches of the outside wheels start shrinking. They will often even begin to lift right up off the floor with really stiff suspensions.

Get the picture? Can you see why your assertion is 100% backwards?

Please fellow posters, if you are going to assert things as being true, how about backing them up with logical explanations that include some specific details on how and why they might actually BE true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
This echos history it seems as prolines come in 2 flavors, art (10deg) and speed (5 deg ). Also that cushions were very firm. Many speed skaters skates would "pull" left because of the continued compressions on just the one side of the skate. Even highest quality urethane has a compression set to it. By having stiff cushions NOT made for "free turning" they made a very solid platfor to do a specific task on. You just habe to break them into your task at hand

Good urethane formulas do not take a set so easily, and good skate maintenance should include marking your cushions so that you can periodically rotate them (on the KP) by 180 or 90 depending on frequency, to prevent this issue.
The deep blue Nova cushions I use are 3-5 times better than SG super cushions at resisting permanent deformations.

Pole vaulters were once also enamored with the "very solid platform" of an aluminum pole. Then a way more compliant "platform" concept of a fiberglass pole was introduced, and once vaulters learned how to handle this greater flex, they never again looked back at the "solid Platform" of an aluminum pole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
A solid base with stiffer action and less turning capabilities is far faster IMO. Ill outrun people in rentals skates ^.^
Rental skates are about as stiff a as any suspensions ever get, so how is you being able to "outrun them" back up your stiffer is better for speed assertion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Too soft a suspension steals power and reduces the support for large loading forces a tired sloppy skater will need.

A suspension you speak of is great for all around stuff, but not a specialized situation such as speed skating.
Sorry, but an elite men's derby jammer and a double 2nd place winner at Quad Nationals both will say you are wrong on this point.

You are projecting/assuming an imagined level of mushiness that is not present with my suspension schemes. Look at the PICs above and notice the SG firm red Super cushion on the lower side of truck. They have extremely good near neutral snap back force, yet this initial significant amount of stabilizing force still ramps up much less quickly and more uniformly, as the truck swings out to the limit of its range.

As long as loading does not drive the truck platform hole up against the kingpin, a good urethane formula will rebound most of any loading deformation energy that their very small squish displacement distance can absorb. So I think you might be exaggerating the negative potential impact on a skater's speed from this issue, especially when the urethane is adequately high rebound.

-Armadillo
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Old September 10th, 2015, 03:09 AM   #37
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Misinterpreted, you have.

I can outrun people with rentals on my own feet when they have other skates on.

Ill get back to this thread later
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Old September 10th, 2015, 11:37 PM   #38
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Default Okay, this is getting no where fast.

So... fundamentally there is a disconnect in both of our communications. Mort was right when he said he agrees with both. Here is why:

We are both right, and both very wrong. Grip is all about keeping the wheels on the floor and due to the fact that they also "action" or turn-in to follow the arc of the skating path they can be turned too much. Here is where we should be agreeing but aren't.

The optimal degree of turn-in to avoid drag and slip is not effected by hardness of wheels, weight of skater or any other factor other than the radius of the arc the skater wants to skate at that time.

This is not to say that the other factors and forces do not effect the results, the radius only effects the path the wheels should be following.


Now on a hard set up it is difficult to induce turning of the skate and thus has a tendency to enforce the outward direction of the push. The lack of turning responses means it is possible to keep all pushing wheels on the floor simply by keeping weight on the skate neutral or near neutral. Further more, all one must do to turn is take aggressive short crossovers (not optimal for energy but easy to produce at any skill level).


On a fully loose setup it is easy to reduce grip by over turning. This is because it take so little effort to lean the plate an thus turn the wheels. If a novice skater leans during a turn the result is the skate wants to make a turn too sharp for the desired skating path and the wheels will slide out (this is not worth trying to explain by me, but it does happen this way go a head and try it). Thus it is easy to turn too far and result in lower acceleration in the desired direction.

The idea is that the skater wants to find what works for them. A novice will find both overly tight and overly loose setups difficult. An advanced skater may find they can out proform a mid-range setup on a tight setup, but would likly out proform both on a loose one as they can acuratley adjust their ankles to achive optimum weight distrobution for the given surface and turn.


In the end there IS an ideal amount of turn for a given skating arc, but acceleration can best be achieved by pushing outward harder and more often, with less skill by the skater. Thus it is my assertion that lower skilled skaters would find they could accelerate better in the short term if they tightened their trucks, and advanced ones would be best to have their skates optimized for the EXACT turn they are making. This is seen historically as speed skaters did experiment with kingpin angle and cushion hardness and still stuck with the tried and true method of hard cushions which as Mort points out do break in to fit the form and stride of the skater if they skate a single style of track often enough.

The problem with the speed skater method or the full loose setup for the OP is she is skating Roller derby. If she was too loose she would have less control and accuracy of her movements in time she could get accustomed to it but it would be a long process to achieve the level of balance it takes to skate on a full loose setup, if she tightened down she would loose the type of agility she is accustomed too but may find she skates faster with minor adjustments to her skating stride.

In all the problem comes down to finding the most grip for HER with the least change to her setup or stride. Which I am sorry, Armadillo, you took that the wrong way when I said your comments on the joys of "optimized suspension" is irrelevant to the discussion. It is not irrelevant to grip over all but it is irrelevant to her. She is unlikely to be a world class skater nor willing to adjust that much to such a drastically different suspension.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 02:41 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llama of death View Post
So... fundamentally there is a disconnect in both of our communications. Mort was right when he said he agrees with both. Here is why:

We are both right, and both very wrong. Grip is all about keeping the wheels on the floor and due to the fact that they also "action" or turn-in to follow the arc of the skating path they can be turned too much. Here is where we should be agreeing but aren't.

The optimal degree of turn-in to avoid drag and slip is not effected by hardness of wheels, weight of skater or any other factor other than the radius of the arc the skater wants to skate at that time.

This is not to say that the other factors and forces do not effect the results, the radius only effects the path the wheels should be following.


Now on a hard set up it is difficult to induce turning of the skate and thus has a tendency to enforce the outward direction of the push. The lack of turning responses means it is possible to keep all pushing wheels on the floor simply by keeping weight on the skate neutral or near neutral. Further more, all one must do to turn is take aggressive short crossovers (not optimal for energy but easy to produce at any skill level).


On a fully loose setup it is easy to reduce grip by over turning. This is because it take so little effort to lean the plate an thus turn the wheels. If a novice skater leans during a turn the result is the skate wants to make a turn too sharp for the desired skating path and the wheels will slide out (this is not worth trying to explain by me, but it does happen this way go a head and try it). Thus it is easy to turn too far and result in lower acceleration in the desired direction.

The idea is that the skater wants to find what works for them. A novice will find both overly tight and overly loose setups difficult. An advanced skater may find they can out proform a mid-range setup on a tight setup, but would likly out proform both on a loose one as they can acuratley adjust their ankles to achive optimum weight distrobution for the given surface and turn.


In the end there IS an ideal amount of turn for a given skating arc, but acceleration can best be achieved by pushing outward harder and more often, with less skill by the skater. Thus it is my assertion that lower skilled skaters would find they could accelerate better in the short term if they tightened their trucks, and advanced ones would be best to have their skates optimized for the EXACT turn they are making. This is seen historically as speed skaters did experiment with kingpin angle and cushion hardness and still stuck with the tried and true method of hard cushions which as Mort points out do break in to fit the form and stride of the skater if they skate a single style of track often enough.

The problem with the speed skater method or the full loose setup for the OP is she is skating Roller derby. If she was too loose she would have less control and accuracy of her movements in time she could get accustomed to it but it would be a long process to achieve the level of balance it takes to skate on a full loose setup, if she tightened down she would loose the type of agility she is accustomed too but may find she skates faster with minor adjustments to her skating stride.

In all the problem comes down to finding the most grip for HER with the least change to her setup or stride. Which I am sorry, Armadillo, you took that the wrong way when I said your comments on the joys of "optimized suspension" is irrelevant to the discussion. It is not irrelevant to grip over all but it is irrelevant to her. She is unlikely to be a world class skater nor willing to adjust that much to such a drastically different suspension.

I agree with most of your points made in clarifying how combining the spectrum of different skater skills and suspension setups can lead to opposite conclusions about what's "best."
I also acknowledge you for taking up this challenge, and largely succeeding at clearing up some of the confusion. It is a rare thread that sees this kind of a well crafted and clarifying post, when things just keep going back and forth with little or no resolution.

None of the points I was making were meant for novice skaters, so I am ignoring your concerns about "over turning." No one except a couple derby skater novices ever complained about "overturning" when I tuned their suspensions for freedom of action. and those who did initially, quickly raised their skill level so much/fast, within a week or so, that they then said they couldn't believe how much better and easier their skating had become. They felt they had been handicapped and screwed by having rolled so long on overly stiff setups.
I do assert that many skaters remain stuck at the novice level far too long as a primary result of (often unknowingly) clinging to a way-too-firm and unresponsive suspension setup scheme. I push them hard to take the plunge and abandon their stiff action setups., and once they do, they always end up thanking me profusely.

If your suspension does not react instantly and proportionally to the weight distribution you are giving it, then it tends to cover up your errors by NOT turning very much. In effect it withholds the feedback necessary for you to realize the extent of weight focus errors being made, and to correct them, thus keeping you stuck in the novice level.

I make the distinction between suspension setups that are "loose" compared to mine which are "free." I call a suspension loose when it wobbles near neutral unless the skater uses their ankle muscles to stabilize it. This sucks.

I call a suspension free, when it remains stabilized with only cushion support at neutral (BY ITSELF) requiring no input of ankle force, and from that STABLE neutral position it only takes very little ankle force to initiate turning, which can then continue turning further, with only a minimally increasing amount of added ankle force, all the way out to near the wheel bite point.

By this definition, skating on a free suspension allows a skater to more easily master learning precise BALANCE, and to avoid over steering, since the lower levels of force needed to work the action allow for more rapid development of finesse at applying foot pressure for precision steering, especially with lighter weight and less strong skaters.

The lower the forces needed to work the action (lean the plate) the easier it is to gain precision at handling the steering, and to do so while maintain BETTER equality of lateral weight distribution across the axles, which facilitates grip.

-Armadillo
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