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S k a t e L o g F o r u m Closed in June of 2020 |
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*** The SkateLog Forum Has Been Replaced by SkateDebate Dot Com ***
FROM SKATELOG FORUM HOST KATHIE FRY IN MARCH OF 2020:
NEW FORUM NAME: SkateDebate Forum
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Main Skating Forum General discussions about all types of skating, including how to skate, places to skate, skating events, skating equipment, and any topic that does not fall under one of our other skating forums. |
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#41 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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Just so you know, I practice pivots, basic jumps, spins (riding all combination of truck position on the floor) other dance moves, as well as speed. I want to make sure your recommendations are applicable. I dont know that stuff myself. Are you talking about the white avanti trucks on the sure grip website? https://www.suregrip.com/product-p/pa516taa.htm And by delrin pivot cups, do you mean https://www.suregrip.com/product-p/in305d.htm |
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#42 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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Will I be able to correct the position of the plates? How one is crookedly mounted? Or do I have to reuse the holes in the boot? |
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#43 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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McMaster-Carr parts list for skate plate mounting (sure grip fame size 10 boot and rock plate)
316 Stainless Steel Button Head Hex Drive Screw Super-Corrosion-Resistant, 10-32 Thread Size, 5/8" Long 98164A180 316 Stainless Steel Button Head Hex Drive Screw 10-32 Thread, 1-3/4" Long 98164A662 Tee Nut Insert for Wood 316 Stainless Steel, 10-32 Thread Size, 0.315" Installed Length 90973A101 Drilled out old, soft mounting fasteners with a 3/16 bit, through the top. Pulled them out through the bottom. Using Shoe Goo on the plate and bottom of boot, sanding boot and plate first. Sets surprisingly fast, even in 30*F temperatures. Button head machine screws need an allen key to tighten, probably an imperial size, as my 3mm key was slightly too small. Waiting 30 hours to cure. Last edited by FlailingLlama; February 26th, 2020 at 08:22 PM. |
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#44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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#45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 131
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I just did a weight comparison between a steel bearing and a full ceramic (Bones Reds vs Acer, to be exact). It was 11.3 gm vs 5.3 gm. For quad skaters (x16 bearings) going full ceramic would be a weight savings of 3.5 oz., 6.4 oz - 2.9 oz. For reference, 1 oz is the weight of 5 quarters. This would mean a total weight difference of 17.5 quarters. So is this significant? You decide.
For me, and prolly some speed and marathon skaters, the answer would be “yes.” For causal, dance, or fitness peeps, the answer would be, “no.” Fitness freaks might like extra weight because it would help strengthen the mussels in their stems. They may even like to tie lead weights on their boots to further blast their legs. Whew, makes me sweat to think about that. But again, for me: < = better. For that reason, I skate low-top boots, no toe stop, nylon axel nuts, and magnesium plates. Less is more. A few other thoughts… Yeah “Silky” was a strange way to describe the feel of a full ceramic bearing, but I gave it a lot of thought and that was the best I could come up with. Describing feelings is hard. To validate this would take a panel of skaters, although scientific testing for bearing resistance and vibration might help. Anyway, ceramics are def a different feel than steel. To me they feel nicer…a lot nicer. OK, so with the advent of long wearing full ceramic bearings, why not double seal them and offer permanently lubricated, no-maintenance, “lubed-for-life bearings? They are out there for other applications. This would also be good for outdoor skaters who roll through dusty, sandy, muddy, dirty, awful conditions. Let me give you a personal example. A few months ago I destroyed a $125 set of hybrid ceramic bearings after a pretty girl asked me to take her picture in front of the Venice Beach Public Art Walls. The walls are located in beach sand and I was skating at the time. Somehow I forgot all about wearing skates and just followed her out there, sinking above my axles in sand the whole time. It was a long walk, too, and she needed pictures from different angles. Although my bearings were sealed, apparently they are not designed for sand surfing. I suppose that a close-tolerance double seal bearing might impose some drag on the spin, but by how much? A small amount of drag may offset the hassle of cleaning and lubricating. And I know that nothing lasts forever. Even “permanently lubricated” bearing have a set life span. I would be happy if it would last for, say, three years. Even my greased, hybrid bearings last for two years, unless I go sand skating. |
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#46 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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I've disassembled some nicer bearings, and steel or ceramic, if the races are well polished, and the tolerances are just loose enough for no resistance, that's a smooth bearing. They do make completely sealed bearings, but they are not for skate applications. I looked into a permanently sealed bearing for skate, but due to all the debris and variables it still ends up needing maintenance, and then you have a much more difficult set of shields to pop off. I also look at it this way... 1 hour (i'm getting faster at it) of popping shields off, soaking in ultrasonic denatured alcohol bath, and relubing every month or so is worth having smooth fast bearings all the hours I do skate. |
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#47 | |
Sk8 Ninja
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
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If you want to "fix" your mount , remount it first, skate it. See if you like the changes. You can fill the old holes and redrill. After you're satisfied, glue the plate down for a near aluminum feel. And to the links you posted, yes, and yes.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv. "Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy |
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#48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: So Cal
Posts: 131
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The Placebo Effect works both ways. How do you know what you DID NOT feel was due to your pre-conceived beliefs? You don’t. If you were skeptical, indifferent, or determined to find no difference between ceramic and steel then - surprise! - it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s one of the reason that bearing discussions are such a hot topic. Opinions are all over the place, just look at the above posts. One thing that I hope we could all agree on is that bearing choice has no relation to the amount of fun you have. It seems like I had a ton o’ fun wearing cheap, crappy, loose balls bearing, clamp-on metal skates when I was seven-years-old. I’m sticking to my opinion, tho. I have a little bit of science on my side, too. There is no disputing the fact that ceramic bearings smoother and have less resistance than steel. And beyond that, ceramic and steel are two different materials with different properties, and yes, with different “feels.” Ceramic has a different feel under my feet than steel does. To me it’s silkier, nicer, different. It is hard to explain. I put full ceramic bearings in my bicycle wheels and could not tell any difference. Having a more direct contact with your feet may make a difference. I also read that delrin, the extremely hard, durable plastic used in longboard slide pucks, is also used in ball bearings. No doubt delrin bearings have yet another “feel” altogether. I believe they much softer than steel or ceramic, and maybe that is a good thing. Could a softer material actually be smoother and last longer? Hmmm. Testing, we need some testing. Sounds like you’ve perfected the re-lube process. One hour is pretty quick. My best time is two hours. Unfortunately I have some perfectionist tendencies that slow me down. For many years I enjoyed the cleaning and lubing job. Not so much now. I just as soon skip it. |
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#49 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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You are right, that's why I tried my best to have some blind testing. I actually wanted to feel a difference, and wanted the coast down to improve with the 25 dollars I spent (for 200 grade 5 ceramic balls) and three hours I spent replacing all the balls. Ended up all testing within human error. I did enjoy the process, and I do enjoy using bearings that I sort of put together myself. I take pride in that, and it adds to my skating experience. Sorry I sounded sort of matter of fact in my last post, didn't mean to sound so snooty ![]() There is no disputing the molecular surface difference, but whether it makes a performance difference I have yet to observe or measure. I also think there might not be a longevity difference either, at least comparing correctly maintained bearings. Leaving a bearing alone, never taking it apart, never cleaning it, never relubing, really abusing it, that's where the steel bearing probably loses to ceramic (hybrid at least) as it won't erode as fast with contaminants, and won't reach as high of temperatures. You feel the differences, I don't. Perhaps part of it is I'm just learning how to skate, and I can't feel the fine tuning stuff yet. I don't use grease in my bearings, just nano oil (5 weight) so the bearings don't take long in the ultrasonic bath. When I first cleaned a set of bearings, they had thick grease packed in between all the balls, and holy crap I spend all gd day with a toothbrush and denatured alcohol. If I open up a bearing and it has grease in it... its staying! I'm not cleaning them. And yes! skating is fun, talking about skating is fun, learning about skates is fun, the culture around skating is so interesting... So glad skating is a part of me now! (better late than never!) |
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#50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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#51 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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I decided to keep the mounting holes where they are, I figured I'd probably mess something up drilling new holes. Now that the plates are tight on the boot, they actually evened out, there isn't as much of a mounting difference between right and left. It kind of surprised me, I stared at the skates for a while, couldn't figure out how the plates moved while keeping the same mounting holes. MUCH more sturdy fasteners. I'm actually surprised the little spider rivet thingies hold the plate on in the first place. A few were already rusting through! Thanks for the suggestions so far, I skated on the flat washers and greased trucks, no jump bar... holy moley what a difference. Much more grip and control. Those jump bars were limiting me for sure. Now I can feel the wheels grip much harder, but I was still rolling fast. I had such a good time, and could push myself so much harder. Seriously thank you. Skating and volunteering at the symphony are the only aspects of my life that bring me joy. I'm also ordering the avanti trucks and delrin inserts to finish off my skate pimping. Do you use Nano Oil from Christian St Claire in your bearings? I swear the skates are getting faster. |
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#52 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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Last edited by fierocious1; February 27th, 2020 at 01:19 PM. |
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#53 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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So why exactly do the trucks and cups help so much? (haven't ordered them yet, maybe I'll get them next week) I was studying the pictures, and they seem to be designed in the same shape as what I currently have, except for that adjustment piece on the trucks. I was reading that this adjustment doesn't change the stiffness, but rather corrects a response in the truck? To be honest I still am not sure how to set them up. Some people were saying you tighten them to be just enough to keep the truck in place when you lift the skate, others had different ideas. |
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#54 | |
Sk8 Ninja
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
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So happy for ya bud. It's really cool when people start to get into the tinkering and learn how it all works. When you get your avanti setup in. You'll want the truck yoke to be centered on the kingpin. So it's not closer to the pivot, or the center of the plate. The truck yoke should sit perpendicular to the kingpin. The next phase is to make sure the cushion against the baseplate supports the truck yoke at this point. Sometimes they have to be shimmed up in height. Sometimes everything lines up perfectly with just 1 washer under the plate side cushion. You'll just have to see what you end up with there. The pivot will need to be adjusted so it touches the bottom of the pivot cup. It should hit dead center if everything lines up right. If it is too close to the kingpin, and riding against the wall just add a washer under the cushion. If it is too close to the toestop for instance, you'll want to reduce the height of the plate side stack, that will bring the pivot closer to the kingpin. The only thing the adjustable pivot can do is reach further into the pivot cup. Edit: keep an eye on your boots, cheaper boots are known to have poor bonding. Essentially the surfaces of the boot and sole are not prepped well when they glue them together, the glue is sometimes brittle, and they dont always use enough of it. The tighter you lace up the harder you skate, the more the boots quarter panels will pull away from the sole. You can help quell that by putting a light sanding on the seam at the sole and going around where it meets the boot. Clean with acetone, let dry a moment, then smear some shoe goo into that seam like you were caulking a shower. I would do this with the boot laced as tightly as possible so it helps to open up the seam a little.
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Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv. "Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy |
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#55 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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That rink owner also scoffed at my trucks, and said "that isn't grease, is it?" I said yeah! and I switched out the cupped washers for straight ones for better movement. (he also didn't like the washer thing, he said the cups are there to hold everything together, it was designed that way) He said that he doesn't grease anything except putting a tiny drop of oil on the shaft of the kingpin, because the grease attracts dirt when the spaces between the cushions and washers open up in a turn, and eventually start sandpapering away... I was like, uh, so what? I maintain my equipment, so I would be regreasing every month or so anyways. I was trying not to roll my eyes. This is the same guy with 1000 dollar skates that was at full tilt around the rink, and I was like gently coasting in pace with him lol. I wonder why no one would race me? |
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#56 | |
Sk8 Ninja
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
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Did I mention there are 2 sides to the SG cushions? You want the side with all the ribs to face the truck yoke, and the side with the lettering to face the washer/retainers. The ribs will retain the grease much better. For the right "tightness" on the kingpin nut, it should be just enough compression where the retainer/washer is still able to be turned by hand without too much trouble. Not much more than that, otherwise it's better to go up in duro on Tue cushions and keep the right pressure. This works the opposite too, if you loosen to where the trucks are starting to get floppy and things are still too stiff, time to go down in duro and snug things back up, and work your way down until your feet are always happy after a long session. Softer suspensions are easier on the foot structures and muscles by far. Many of us around here have facebook accounts with pictures on them, or postings showing a modification etc, and there are groups on there to ask question and get answers as well.
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Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv. "Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy |
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#57 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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#58 | |
Sk8 Ninja
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
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Theres more responders on FB, but that doesnt always mean the quality of information will also be aplenty ![]() FB makes it easier to post/share pictures. Not that it cant be done here, but the interface is easier /faster.
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Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv. "Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy |
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#59 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 36
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welp, I shouldnt have messed with a good thing.
Now that my plate doesn't flex, my cushions are much too hard. Also I didn't realise but that plate flex was allowing my boots to not be painful. Now that the flex is gone, my boots are hurting me again. UGH. I don't have the money to buy a comfortable boot, they don't even have padding where I need it unless I buy a figure skating boot from Edea. and it's too stiff for what I want to do. UGH. Also tore the heels (partially) off both boots. I guess I have to glue that **** back together and hope it holds, and skate with multiple pairs of socks again. On top of all that, something was wrong with my inner ear, tonight's practice was so bad, I couldn't even practice pivots without getting too dizzy. Even 180's were making me sick. UGH. |
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#60 | |
Sk8 Ninja
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
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It shouldnt take long for your feet to adjust to the modified setup. The boots would fail regardless if you fixed up your plate. All the r3/gt50/carrera/rock and other skates have poorly glued soles. I'd recommend mounting the plate to a comfortable soccer/football/rugby cleat. People do it all the time. Grind the cleats off and learn to mount Edit. Here is a small write up I did while fixing an R3. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970 Here is one I did where I added a strip of canvas to the outside of the boot to reinforce it. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970 Glue was smeared on the boot where the canvas was being applied and also on 1 side of the canvas so it could really be bonded into the fibers of the material. The boots surfaces were prepped as well. Then pressed onto the boot like paper mache, laced up tightly and allowed to dry.
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Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv. "Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy Last edited by Mort; February 28th, 2020 at 07:17 PM. |
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