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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old September 1st, 2017, 06:14 PM   #1
markwphoto
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Default Skating and Knee Injury

Hello everybody!

I know this will be a long post but bare with me! So last year I decided I wanted to try to start skating again to get myself back into shape and just to see if I could get back to Nationals one more time as an adult that had just turned 40. I had a great year and ended up going to Nationals for figures and freestyle skating against kids 1/3 of my age in the Freshman/sophomore B events. I ended up placing fourth in both events but I am extremely happy with how I did considering that I hadn't skated since my early 20s.

After Nationals I told myself I was going to push myself hard and fix a lot of bad habits that I had established over my skating career. I purchased a new Edea Fly boot at Nationals and several months before I had switched from an Atlas plate to a Roll-Line Mistral for freestyle. I'll do another post/review on that transition later.

After I got my new boot mounted I was amped and ready to get back to business. I had a week off from skating after Nationals and was ready to learn, re-learn and try new things. I skated about 4 to 5 days per week doing at least two hours of freestyle each time. I was also doing a lot of off-skate practice on my jump rotation and form (Trying to get a tight wrap). As you can see where this is going... I worked so much that I blew out my knee and of course it was my right landing knee!

Now granted I have dealt with knee pain for probably the past 2 years (maybe even longer) but it's been manageable by lots of biking and doing 2 days of freestyle and a few days off but this was the most severe case of patellar tendinitis/tendinosis that I have ever had! I couldn't bear to place any weight on my knee. Even trying to do figures hurt like the dickens!

A few years ago I had purchased the book "Beating Petellar Tendinitis," by Martin Koban. While I had done a few of the exercise on occasion, it's a book that has been collecting dust in my Kindle library for a while. Well after this injury it was time to blow of the digital dust and try to fix my knee(s)!

I took a day off after I first killed my knee but on day 3 I went straight into trying go full force trying to get my knee back. I did most of the exercises and stretches but I did set after set of eccentric squats (more on this below). I even tried to do one legged squats. I didn't feel too bad doing all of this but the knee was still in pain the whole time. The next day I wake up and I was in even worse shape than before!!

I took another few days off to recover and then started to rehab the way I should have in the first place, taking it nice and easy and slow!! Fast forward to this week. My knees have never felt better!! Here's the deal:

After actually reading the book instead of jumping straight to the exercises I learn that:

Knee pain usually has nothing to do with the actually knee itself


Knees become painful when other muscles in the legs are too weak, too tight, or overworked; all of which I had a problem with. I never thought my legs were weak. I mean come on, I can do a sit spin and go all the way down to the ground and stand up with no problems, right? Wrong! Even on my left leg which is my good leg for spinning I couldn't do a one-legged squat! My muscles were too week and inflexible.

For the past few week and a half I have been foam rolling my quads, hamstrings, IT bands. I have been stretching my calves/achilles/ankles. I have been doing eccentric squats on a slant board. BTW an eccentric squat on a 30 degree slant board is a squat that allows you to keep your shin bone straight and go straight down with bending your back. The squat should take 3-5 seconds to go down and then stand up rather quickly. There should be little to no pressure on the knees but it will help strength the quad properly and help promote healing in the patellar tendons. I've also done glutes and thigh stretches and worked on hip abduction strengthening exercises.

By doing all of this I can now walk up and down stairs with no pain in my knees at all. Haven't done this in over 2 years! Before I would just run/jump up the stairs to avoid too much pressure on my knees. Now I can actually climb stairs like a normal person instead of like a madman! My knees have already gotten much stronger in a short period of time. I can do a one legged half squat but still working to a full squat. I know my patellar tendon still has a little pain when pressed on or overloaded so I'm still on jump restriction for another week or two but I will slowly get back into it off skates. I now wake up with no pain at all in the morning. I used to have a feeling like there was an air bubble or pressure on my knee. That's completely gone now!

I know this has been an extremely long post but just wanted to pass it on that knee pain can be fixed if you take the time to do it right! I now take about 30-45 in the morning and evening to work on nothing but my knees and it's paying off. While I feel like I'm learning to walk all over again I know in the long run I will be better for it. Skating especially freestyle subjects your knees to a lot of abuse and if you don't take care of it now you may regret it later. Even if it's already later for some of us just know that there is hope! NSAIDS, ICE and compression are only temporary solutions and in fact can cause more damage because you're not treating the root cause. Fix you muscle imbalances and you won't have any issues at all!

Be sure to check on the book "Beating Petellar Tendonitis." It was worth every bit of the $10.00 I paid for it on Kindle and should have cost a lot more! The book is like gold!!
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Old September 1st, 2017, 10:28 PM   #2
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Smile Thanks for the Post and good luck with the recovery!

Hey Mark,

Thank you for the excellent post. It was very informative and I just ordered the Book, “Beating Patellar Tendonitis”. I think we all have similar problems with our knees if you are old.

I’m 62 years old and I know many of my competitors are in their 60’s, some in their 70’s and have come back to skating after a 40 year layoff.

None have chosen to compete in Singles although some were Senior Champs before quitting skating over 40 years ago.

Most are so strong that they can still win at 60 or 70 years old, but choose not to continue to jump and spin. I guess the reasons are obvious, but most tell me they can still do singles, but not doubles and have decided they don’t want to compete in Freestyle.

I on the other hand I have not made that decision to not compete yet, although I have to admit I have not jumped and spinned in over 6 months.

Freestyle takes something out of me, where I can’t do it every day. I have to rest after jumping and spinning.

Doing dance and figures I can do every day, although I have to admit, I was sore every day last year except for three days. One day was when I skated at Nationals and believe it or not I skated 7 practice sessions the day before.

I peaked at just the right time. I skated as well as I could. The competition was just toooooo great….!!!!! LOL.

Next year should be interesting because of the proposed rule changes. I think even if they come up with the new age rules and classifications, an adult who still wants to skate youth can, but there will not be the regular adult divisions like Novice, Esquire and such, except for possibly freestyle.

Personally I’m really looking forward to the proposed new rules to come out this month. In the mean time I have learned practicing a lot of basic skating maneuvers…like forward and backward edges on the figure circles and the dance floor can strengthen up those knee muscles…basically skating, exercises/drills involving all the knee muscle groups, without really skating any dances or figures per se.

After nationals and my dismal finish in Dance and actually quite well in figures, my head coach gave me a bit of wisdom. He said “Larry, I would not practice any dances when you go home. Practice all the boring stuff, like edges, chases and run steps.”

I have done this religiously for the last month, 7 days a week for at least 2 hours per day and sometimes 6. I will do this for another month and then start practicing the dances for next year.

I have also decided to skate down an event and Skate “B” dance and figures. This should allow me to skate better at next year’s regionals and Nationals.

Best wishes, and thanks for the excellent information. It was great!

Larry O..see you at regionals.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 04:14 AM   #3
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Thanks for sharing.

A therapist once told me the nerves are not in the leg muscle but in the knee so that is where you feel the pain.

I completely understand how you thought your muscles were strong. I recently started going to a orofacial myofunctional therapist. Apparently my face and mouth muscles are weak ant it causes breathing and sleep problems. I had no idea.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 04:41 AM   #4
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Thanks for sharing.

A therapist once told me the nerves are not in the leg muscle but in the knee so that is where you feel the pain.

I completely understand how you thought your muscles were strong. I recently started going to a orofacial myofunctional therapist. Apparently my face and mouth muscles are weak ant it causes breathing and sleep problems. I had no idea.
At my last visit to the PT, he told me there are nine nerves in the knee. I was speed skating, tripped on a toe stop, smacked my knee hard, it swelled to grapefruit size. I never bruise. But this time I had bruising all the way to the bottom of my foot, could not put a shoe on my left foot for about a week. Had several x-rays, no breaks, thank God.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 05:52 AM   #5
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oh wow! that hurts me just looking at it.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 06:41 AM   #6
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oh wow! that hurts me just looking at it.
What's amazing, I didn't have a great deal of pain, just stiffness, and swelling. Seven weeks after the injury, my pain is about 1 out of 10. I actually skated last Saturday night. I probably set myself back a bit on the road to recovery.

As a rule, one should not resume such activity until the injured limb is as strong or stronger than the good one. I'm just a skate addict.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 11:53 AM   #7
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Larry do you think 7 practice sessions the day before you skate is a good or smart thing. if you don't know it or cant do it by then its too late.
Don't overdue it now, leads to pain and burnout. good luck
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 11:54 AM   #8
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Mark very interesting post on the knee and how u overcame it. I also do things like that on certain injurys. usually google it.
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Old September 2nd, 2017, 11:18 PM   #9
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Dear Rick,

Thanks for the concern. In reality, although I skated 7 sessions the day before, 4 in figures and 3 in dance, you really don’t get that much time on the floor. You share the figure circles with many other skaters and really I only had to practice three basic figures. Old people/adult skaters skate very basic, beginning type figures. No turns and we don’t skate backwards, so the figures are easy.

Dance on the other hand is even worse. Now the 2-3 hour practice will be like 10-15 minutes, because every event gets time to practice their dances on the floor, one at a time.

So, when you get to your category or event to skate, you only get 1-2 records per dance and then you only get to skate ½ the dance. The people skate so big at nationals they can fit only ½ the dance on the floor, without running into people coming from the opposite direction.

So, in reality the all day practice is long for 7 sessions, but the actual amount of time actually skating on the floor is minimal, but you do get tired and worn out…lol!

One thing I learned about skating figures and dance is that you have to be ready to go at a moment’s notice. So if you practice right up to your event, you don’t need a warm up. You are still hot from practice and can skate your dance as well as you can, because you were just skating that dance or figure 1 hour to 15 minutes ago.

I don’t skate freestyle, yet or now, but I know most freestyle skaters at regionals and nationals don’t practice much. If they don’t have it they don’t practice it.

For me in Dance and Figures I was still learning stuff the hour before I skated. Everything came together at the last moment.
So much to learn in one year before Nationals. I was only lucky there were not many skaters so I got to go.

Larry O
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Old September 3rd, 2017, 12:17 PM   #10
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Larry got u,,,,,,,when my son skated we practiced freestyle every day,,,usually 20 minutes to an hour but is he skated in less then a days time wouldn't do it in that time period. this was awhile ago lol
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Old September 4th, 2017, 01:14 AM   #11
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Smile Regional and National floors/skating surfaces?

Dear Rick,

A little off the topic but SW Pacific Regionals and Nationals afforded me the opportunity to skate on a regional and national floor before competition ever started.

At regionals practice times are allowed on the Regional Floor, because there are no skating rinks around the venue…Fresno, Ca.

At Nationals the same thing, for I assume the same reasons…ie… no skating rinks near Speedway Circle, Lincoln Nebraska.

In my day, I never qualified for Nationals, as it was posted once on this board. “if you can breathe you will probably place at regionals and go to Nationals”. That was my case…lol!

But the point I wanted to make when I skated regionals 40 years ago, you never got the chance to practice on the regional floor. All the practice rinks were slippery by comparison to the Regional Floor. In my days there were three practice rinks.

So, It became a big deal to spends hundreds of dollars to try to get the right compound for that Regional floor and the right wheels on each skate, like they do today for freestyle.

But in those days plastic coated floors were new, wheels expensive and the poor people like myself could not afford 2-3 sets of wheels to experiment on the right wheel compound for regionals. Never went to Nationals, but the same problem could arise.

Now, I can afford many wheel sets and compounds trying to get the right combination for my skating and I get to practice on the Regional and National floor to dial in the compound before I skate. That’s what neat about competing today as compared to yesterday.

Sincerely,

Larry O
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Old September 4th, 2017, 11:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post
Dear Rick,

A little off the topic but SW Pacific Regionals and Nationals afforded me the opportunity to skate on a regional and national floor before competition ever started.

At regionals practice times are allowed on the Regional Floor, because there are no skating rinks around the venue…Fresno, Ca.

At Nationals the same thing, for I assume the same reasons…ie… no skating rinks near Speedway Circle, Lincoln Nebraska.

In my day, I never qualified for Nationals, as it was posted once on this board. “if you can breathe you will probably place at regionals and go to Nationals”. That was my case…lol!

But the point I wanted to make when I skated regionals 40 years ago, you never got the chance to practice on the regional floor. All the practice rinks were slippery by comparison to the Regional Floor. In my days there were three practice rinks.

So, It became a big deal to spends hundreds of dollars to try to get the right compound for that Regional floor and the right wheels on each skate, like they do today for freestyle.

But in those days plastic coated floors were new, wheels expensive and the poor people like myself could not afford 2-3 sets of wheels to experiment on the right wheel compound for regionals. Never went to Nationals, but the same problem could arise.

Now, I can afford many wheel sets and compounds trying to get the right combination for my skating and I get to practice on the Regional and National floor to dial in the compound before I skate. That’s what neat about competing today as compared to yesterday.

Sincerely,

Larry O
Larry so u skated on the bare wood floors with powder and lose ball bearings. weren't those fun lol. last time we were in fresno in 98 I think they had 2 practice rinks, both were ok but hard to get times. they also used the main large venue for nationals then.
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Old September 4th, 2017, 02:54 PM   #13
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Dear Rick,

Thanks for the conversation, but I know it’s a little off the topic…lol! I bought three new books on your knees, so I am gaining positive information from this original post. The books are to arrive soon, I bought them from Amazon.

Probably most of us skated on bare wood floors with powder. One rink in Southern California still has a bare wood floor, but they don’t use powder. And one rink although small, probably has the tightest floor comparable to Nationals and the SW Pacific Regional floor.

The other rink I skated on in Southern, Ca is a little slippery, so you just got to use a little softer wheel, like a 101A. Now, that I’m doing figures, I will have to experiment on what wheels to use on that floor for figures.

I hated plastic coated floors, but now I know the correct wheels to use on them. In the old days one wheel, Fomac Zephrs worked on all floors. That was really cool. I hated the different feel of plastic coated floors and the feeling was different for every rink.

I’m kind of a Hoarder and have bought almost one set of figure wheels from the era long past….early 70’s. I have brand new sets of Waldecks, the copy Valdeck from Sure Grip, two sets of Webers …yellow and green and three sets of ExCaliburs (the first wheel I ever skated on when plastic coated floors just came out).

You can still buy All American Dreams and I have one set of those still in the wrappers.

I guess the bottom line is you don’t need a lot of wheels and all these fancy sets of wheels. At Nationals, one old guy still skates on his Synder Imperial Skates, Riedell Gold star boots and some old wheels from a era long past and he wins.

I can’t even come close to him, because I got next to last….lol!. But I had fun and look forward to talking to these old guys next Nationals.

They are great fun and let me follow them when they practice so I can learn from them. They say, “Larry we learned, because good skaters helped us. We need to help you”.

Larry O and God Bless!
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Old September 19th, 2017, 05:04 AM   #14
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Default Slant Board Squats

The tip for doing squats on a 30 degree board has been most beneficial in my recovery from the injury sustained seven weeks ago.

Because I didn't have what I needed to readily erect a slant board, it wasn't until yesterday I began doing the squats. However, I didn't need to because I realized I already had all I needed at hand; my car ramps. They work great, and this exercise is just what I needed to relieve stiffness, and regain range of motion.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 11:30 AM   #15
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Larry we only used one set of wheels till they lost edges and rotating them. but he only did freestyle. when he practiced the other disciplines or messed around with them still used the same wheels and never took out the toe stops.
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Old September 19th, 2017, 11:59 PM   #16
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Cool Skateluv84 and Rick....

1) Skateluv84 the idea about using car ramps is a wonderful idea. I have not practiced any of exercises in the book, but I have read the book and I think it is wonderful. One of the ladies hurt her shoulder, so I bought her the same book... only dealing with the shoulder repair and strengthening exercises to make the shoulder bulletproof.

2) New subject: Over the last few days I have begun to develop a theory on not only how to strengthen the leg muscles, which include the knees but how to develop the whole body in preparation to perform freestyle jumps and spins. It seems like everybody wants to learn how to jump and spin even at 60 or 70 years old. But how do you prepare for it with the best possibility for success.

3) This is what I have learned. Go to the figure circles, those painted circles on the roller skating floor and practice for hours LOF, ROF edges. Then RIF, LIF egdes, ROB,LOB edges and RIB and LIB edges. Practices three turns on the Left foot on the figure circle and then on the right foot.


3a) Next practice run steps in a big circle/half the skating surfaces, with deep knee bends and stretch the legs as you are stroking, pointing the toes on the outside edges. Practice Chasse steps and make sure the raised foot goes straight up for few inches. Practice your Cross-n-backs and cross-n-fronts steps in those big circles as you skate around and around on the skating floor. Now, do these same exercises in the reverse directions.


3b) Now trying to do big LOF, ROF edges down the length of the floor. After you master that try adding a swing to the LOF and the ROF edge. Now, skate backwards and do the ROB edge and the LOB edge backwards down the length of the floor. If you are skilled enough do the RIB and LIB edges backwards down the length of the floor.

What you will find is you will develop strength in your legs skating backwards and forwards. I think before long when you attempt to jump and spin everything will seem a lot easier because you have built up your leg muscles to skate forwards and backwards,..to do three turns and spins and not only that.... in the CW direction but also CCW direction.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani

P.S. I have been spending hours performing these exercises everyday and I feel I'm am getting ready to jump and spin if that is my desire. My legs feel really strong and my balance has improved greatly, which you will need when you jump or spin. If you want to jump and spin you have to be able to skate forwards and backwards and have great balance do it! These exercises build great strength in the legs, which you will need when you jump and spin!

If you can learn to skate with a girl I think your strength in skating also goes up exponentially and balance and helps with your freestyle, because you become a much stronger skater, more balanced and you learn to skate straight up and down with good posture which is needed if you want to become a excellent freestyle skater who has great poise and balance.

Also Rick in general I feel freestyle wheels are excellent wheels for dance and figures. I just think one should buy the taller 62mm wheels, because that is what is preferred for Dance and Figures and if you are good you can skate on the bigger diameter wheels for Freestyle. Thanks again and happy skating. Yes, I'm living the dream and I thank God everyday for it! Amen.

Larry O
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Old September 20th, 2017, 02:49 AM   #17
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Larry, your contributions are invaluable. You might publish a book someday on artistic skating equipment, and techniques. I envy you being so close to some great floors.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 10:59 PM   #18
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Smile Get Rid of Knee Pain, Skate Backwards...lol!


I recently came upon a Miraculous Discovery, dealing with my ailing knee joints. It seems like everybody old/over 60 seems to have pains in their knees or complains how their knees hurt when they are skating/like skating turn dances.

I too have had the same problem for over a year know, but just skated through it. I skate almost every day, up to 4 hours per day. Sometimes I have even skate 6 hours or more in one skating session. And my knees ached every day and were sore, except for 3 days out of last year.

I just accepted the pain and considered it normal and just got use to it/skate through the aching/sore kness on a daily basis. I thought this was normal.

In the last three weeks I have tried something different. I started skating backwards, vigorously, with contempt and passion. As hard as I was skating forward, I applied the same attitude towards skating backwards. I would say for every hour I skated forward, I was skating 15 minutes backwards, doing three turns, edges and swings skating backwards.

Something happened. My knees stopped aching. I could not skate the long hours, but my knees never got sore. Every day, I’m basically pain free knees or sore-free with my knee joints.

I don’t know why, but by exercising the back part of my legs my knee pains went away???? Why I don’t know, but it’s true.

It’s Miraculous. It’s amazing and I don’t know why, but I love it! And it nice to skate without having sore knee joints all the time. I’m even thinking about jumping again. I have already started spinning routinely/jumping is next!

Sincerely,

Larry O and long live your knees and happy skating backwards. It will save your life or at least your knees…lol!
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Old September 28th, 2017, 04:08 PM   #19
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I recently came upon a Miraculous Discovery, dealing with my ailing knee joints. It seems like everybody old/over 60 seems to have pains in their knees or complains how their knees hurt when they are skating/like skating turn dances.

I too have had the same problem for over a year know, but just skated through it. I skate almost every day, up to 4 hours per day. Sometimes I have even skate 6 hours or more in one skating session. And my knees ached every day and were sore, except for 3 days out of last year.

I just accepted the pain and considered it normal and just got use to it/skate through the aching/sore kness on a daily basis. I thought this was normal.

In the last three weeks I have tried something different. I started skating backwards, vigorously, with contempt and passion. As hard as I was skating forward, I applied the same attitude towards skating backwards. I would say for every hour I skated forward, I was skating 15 minutes backwards, doing three turns, edges and swings skating backwards.

Something happened. My knees stopped aching. I could not skate the long hours, but my knees never got sore. Every day, I’m basically pain free knees or sore-free with my knee joints.

I don’t know why, but by exercising the back part of my legs my knee pains went away???? Why I don’t know, but it’s true.

It’s Miraculous. It’s amazing and I don’t know why, but I love it! And it nice to skate without having sore knee joints all the time. I’m even thinking about jumping again. I have already started spinning routinely/jumping is next!

Sincerely,

Larry O and long live your knees and happy skating backwards. It will save your life or at least your knees…lol!

Larry, That goes back the muscle imbalances discussed in the book. Most skaters probably put more pressure on the knees than they realize, especially if they're doing the same repetitive thing over and over again. By skating mostly forward dances you probably have tight quads, calves and little ankle dorsiflexsion. By skating backwards you are basically strengthening the opposite muscle groups to make the weak muscle groups stronger; therefore resulting less knee pain! Walking backwards, climbing stairs backwards and doing backwards box jumps can also do the same effect as skating backwards like you have been. Keep it up!

As for myself, I've made quite a bit of progress, a little regression and progress yet again! I've still been rolling my quads a few times a week, doing eccentric sqauts and stretching my tight muscle groups. For the past few weeks I have slowly starting jumping again but keep the sessions short so I don't over do it. One week I pushed a little too much and I was reminded that I can't go gung ho yet. I'm now at the point that I can do a one legged squat on my slant board, going all the way down. I don't have the strength yet to stand back up on right leg without an assist from my left leg but I'm getting very close!

Last weekend the Mrs. and I went to Disneyland. After driving for 6 hours and of course walking over 20,000 steps per day, by the end of day 2 my knees were a bit sore. I hadn't been doing my daily exercises. One would think walking wouldn't cause knee issues but it in fact did. On the 3rd day before we left for the park I made sure I did some eccentric squats. While it hurt at first, by the time I finished, my knees felt great the rest of the day.

We got back home Tuesday night and Wednesday it was back to training. I did an extended knee routine on Wednesday morning. Again I could tell my knees/legs were a bit tight but by the end of my workout I felt ok. I went to the rink Wednesday evening and did some figures and followed up with about 20 minutes of freestyle. My knees actually felt really good but again I didn't push it. This morning I did my regular routine and I feel like a million bucks. On a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being the most painful, I feel like I'm about at a 2 maybe even a 1!

I'm hoping in a few more weeks I'll be feeling 100% with no issues at all. It takes a lot of time to do all the stretching, squats and rolling but in the end it has been so worth it!!
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Old October 11th, 2017, 02:53 AM   #20
amohrfeld
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 206
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Hi Guys, I want to pass on some information:

I talked to my chiropractor about my lower body muscle issues and he thought I was low on potassium. He gave me a supplement. I don't like taking processed vitamins so..

Today I was talking to my nutritionist (one of the best in the country) and she confirmed it was likely potassium deficiency. After listening to her I realized I was low for most my life. It is likely that most my knee trouble is a vitamin or mineral deficiency and not a genetic issue -like the doctors told me. She recommended carrot skins or potato skins for the potassium and celery or natural colored salts for the sodium. So I'm off to the grocery store. We'll see how this goes.
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