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Old November 9th, 2017, 11:15 PM   #1
netplaceus
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Default Help! How tight to install my Roll-Line Mistral plate cushions?




I got my new Roll Line Mistral plates about a month ago, but I am not sure I am adjusting the suspensions correctly.

I understand suspensions are very subjective, and depend on application and objective. But without the usual torque settings, procedures, etc. How do you get any kind of uniformity on your 4 suspensions or even have a known starting place from which to compare to?

Advice I have received so far includes just tighten it down so it feels the same with your hand, count the threads, count the clicks, experiment with cushions. So consider me stupid, or skate retarded because I don’t know how to think this way.

So my question is “how tight” do I install the cushions and how do I make them all uniform? I am lost on this one! I mean How tight they are changes everything right (no)? I don’t know where to start with tightness. Looking for more objective direction at least to start.

Also any recommendations for cushions would be awesome too! My skates came with yellow, extra hard and hard (lower).

I weigh 165 lbs., am 6”2 tall. I chose the Mistral plate because I thought it was a good middle ground for the things I like Freestyle, Dance, Rhythm*. So with cushions I am looking for something slanting toward Freestyle, but still “OK” (but not the best) for Dance, Rhythm.

PS: The best I could come up with to keep some uniformity was to turn the clicker nut with my finger until I could make no more clicks, then start counting clicks with the wrench. But how tight to start? And since there is no reference point or measuring system, how can one convey that information to someone else?

I don’t get it, why are there no torque settings standards for cushions product lines?

Thanks so much for your help!!!!!
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Last edited by netplaceus; November 9th, 2017 at 11:50 PM. Reason: misspelled
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Old November 10th, 2017, 12:04 AM   #2
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I don't use a click system on my skates, however, a technique I have used for many years is to tighten up until the truck is not able to be moved with a light touch. Put your skates on, stand up and hold onto a table or something. Tilt your toes up so that the skate can be rocked side to side with your weight on the rear wheels. You can see how much effort it takes to rock them. Get comfortable testing like this for a while. Try the other foot to compare it to. Do the front trucks as well.. adjust until they feel the same. Skate to see if they are turning to loosely for you or not. Adjust evenly.

I have never had a clicker setup, so using this feel method got me really close after practicing it for a short time. Later after skating, check your skates again and you will probably find some variation. The more you use this system the easier it will get to feel the difference. You will learn how tight you like your cushions to be and be able to notice if something is wrong, like a blown out cushion. If you go to another pair of skates, you may not like the handling of them if you set them the same as these skates, all skates, skate differently.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 12:43 AM   #3
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I wonder how I will look back on this question years from today, will I "get it",
or still think half the skaters are training on random or miss-configured setups.

Those who stay with it do well, science or not they have figured out something that works as you have. My guess is I will get it someday, I hope

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, that helped a lot.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 12:50 AM   #4
ursle
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You want the light green cushions, poly, not natural rubber, tighten them down until the cushions just turn when you grab them, not snugged down, just shy of it, thatís a starting point, after some hours you may want to tighten a little or loosen a little, personal taste.
If you have the click adjust, to bad, the micro adjust (no click) is much more exacting.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 02:41 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netplaceus View Post
I wonder how I will look back on this question years from today, will I "get it",
or still think half the skaters are training on random or miss-configured setups.

Those who stay with it do well, science or not they have figured out something that works as you have. My guess is I will get it someday, I hope

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, that helped a lot.
You will get more tips from others, you can count on it.
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Old November 10th, 2017, 03:29 AM   #6
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ursle

Thanks, I think having different perspectives is the best way to get the big picture. I have never been in a sport where so many are eager and willing to help you out.

About the click action: not crazy about it ether.

Light green Urethane cushions? Those are the softest, most flexible ones, never thought to order those because of my weight (165). However, when someone with a lot of experience suggest something I'm all ears for why it works for them. looking through the forum, all suggestions were much harder or a combination hard and soft. So I'm really interested in your suggestion.

It's hard to understand how what works can be so different.

I can see the softer cushions helping with more severe angles, changing direction, etc. Not to mention just being fun!

But the harder ones hold a turn better and snap back faster.

I have never tried cushions that soft (I am going to now), but my feeling is I would feel less stable in some situations, like a jump, or keeping or regaining balance in some unexpected situation when your foot comes down less than expected. Coming down on something less solid seems like it would require more balance and skill?

So I'm wondering if our brains just adapt to what we choose and that's why you see so many preferences for the same style. If that's true, it seems like there are more advantages to adapting to soft cushions.

I going to try it out, thanks!
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Old November 10th, 2017, 03:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
You will get more tips from others, you can count on it.
That's good, I think the diversity is really interesting.
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Last edited by netplaceus; November 10th, 2017 at 03:36 AM. Reason: fix spell
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Old November 20th, 2017, 04:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netplaceus View Post
ursle

Thanks, I think having different perspectives is the best way to get the big picture. I have never been in a sport where so many are eager and willing to help you out.

About the click action: not crazy about it ether.

Light green Urethane cushions? Those are the softest, most flexible ones, never thought to order those because of my weight (165).

Over the last 10 years I have ranged from 240 down to 180... and now back up to 210. Always used the green cushions in my Roll Lines, backed all the way off. (In my book, Roll Lines cushion recommendations based on weight are hog wash. Says I need the yellow ones. I can hardly turn the blues so I just went on down to the bottom.)

My first Mistrals were before the click action. The blue cushions were a heck of a lot softer then. Looking back, all the Roll Lines I have owned and currently own are/were backed all the way off, except the Rings. They are 2 clicks in.


However, when someone with a lot of experience suggest something I'm all ears for why it works for them. looking through the forum, all suggestions were much harder or a combination hard and soft. So I'm really interested in your suggestion.

It's hard to understand how what works can be so different.

In this situation it is the sk8r, not the sk8s.


I can see the softer cushions helping with more severe angles, changing direction, etc. Not to mention just being fun!

Bingo... If sk8ing isn't fun, why are you rolling??

But the harder ones hold a turn better and snap back faster.

Don't know about "holding a turn" being a function of the suspension. I always thought the driver was doing that?? Snap back faster?? Since stiffer cushions require more effort to turn (more work on the sk8rs part) in the first place, why is better snap back even a consideration?? There is no free stuff in a sk8 action. Everything that you get back, you had to pay for earlier and you never get as much back as you put in.

I have never tried cushions that soft (I am going to now), but my feeling is I would feel less stable in some situations, like a jump, or keeping or regaining balance in some unexpected situation when your foot comes down less than expected. Coming down on something less solid seems like it would require more balance and skill?

Pretty much. It all comes down to this. The softer you run the action, the stronger you need to be. It's all a question of balance and not just the inner ear kind.

So I'm wondering if our brains just adapt to what we choose and that's why you see so many preferences for the same style. If that's true, it seems like there are more advantages to adapting to soft cushions.

I going to try it out, thanks!

If you have the yellow ones in your sk8s currently I would advise against going straight to green. You would definitely get all the adverse effects you are concerned about. Work into the softer action with caution. You will learn a lot about the way you and your sk8s behave on the way to the softest ones.

Another thing to think about. It is all in how you use your sk8s. I have only ever had 1 sk8r on the yellow brick cushions. Rhythm sk8r that spent an awful lot of time on his front wheels. If you are only on 2 wheels you really don't need much action.

Lastly, stiff actions are prone to break sk8 parts. Roll Line went from the 12mm king pin to the 13mm king pin because the jam sk8rs were cranking the action all the way down to sk8. This put huge stresses on the king pin since the urethane in the hole in the truck yoke was loaded until it had no more room to flex. No room to flex = solid so, all the shock on the truck was transferred directly to the king pin. The chain always fails @ the weakest link.

Bottom line: From my perspective, stiff = bad. Soft = good. @ least as far as sk8s are concerned.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 07:36 AM   #9
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Stiff Bad You were right Doc Sk8, stiff bad, soft good! I ordered the clear, blue and the green. I have not tried the green yet, I think I will do as you said and just experience the difference for a while.

So I went from all yellow to a clear/blue combo and oh what a difference!
In a few weeks I will try all blue.

sk8s are so much more fun and after a few hours in the rink I felt like I am like 25% more skilled. What a difference! They feel much more maneuverable and responsive to my left and right leans. Weaving around people feels much "easier", even moving to the music is easier.

Easier in quotes above because it does take a little more strength just as you said. But I like it, it's a good trade off to me and I feel more connected to the whole experience.

So it all seems to be what you can get used to and learn how to control when it comes to cushions.

I wonder if there are even any real "limits", I mean do you think there are professionals doing triple axel jumps on all "green" cushions (not like I will ever have to worry about that!)? The whole weight color thing as you pointed out, is so obviously BS.

Anyway I will give you all an update when I experiment with the green and or green and blues. Soft Good Thanks for your great tips!
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Old November 21st, 2017, 08:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netplaceus View Post
Stiff Bad You were right Doc Sk8, stiff bad, soft good! I ordered the clear, blue and the green. I have not tried the green yet, I think I will do as you said and just experience the difference for a while.

So I went from all yellow to a clear/blue combo and oh what a difference!
In a few weeks I will try all blue.

sk8s are so much more fun and after a few hours in the rink I felt like I am like 25% more skilled. What a difference! They feel much more maneuverable and responsive to my left and right leans. Weaving around people feels much "easier", even moving to the music is easier.

Easier in quotes above because it does take a little more strength just as you said. But I like it, it's a good trade off to me and I feel more connected to the whole experience.

So it all seems to be what you can get used to and learn how to control when it comes to cushions.

I wonder if there are even any real "limits", I mean do you think there are professionals doing triple axel jumps on all "green" cushions (not like I will ever have to worry about that!)? The whole weight color thing as you pointed out, is so obviously BS.

Anyway I will give you all an update when I experiment with the green and or green and blues. Soft Good Thanks for your great tips!
I'm 5-10 and 170 lb

I skate really soft cushions, but with a little more pre-compression then others on this forum.

I've had trouble with the softer cushions on my Roll Line Dance plates. However the action is completely different then other Roll Line plates. I found the stock light-blue cushions to be about right. That said, I would probably go softer on a freestyle plate.

Tightening: If using the tool they provide; I found tightening to almost max you can comfortably turn by hand is about right. Then fine tune from there.

I spend the first 10 minutes of every skating session on one foot or the other. Swinging my free foot left and right to test the movement and my comfort level of the rolling skate.

I also switch skates often so it takes 5-30 minutes to get used to the new feel.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 09:22 PM   #11
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I am not a fan of click action. Without fail, there will be at least one truck with the adjustment I want halfway between clicks.

My process for the initial setup of a plate is to spin the top cushion (one closest to the boot) around the king pin while tightening down the action. Once I can not easily spin the cushion, I add half a turn of pre load. Do this to each truck. This sets up all the cushions with about the same pre load on them. Then I skate and adjust from there. On my skates with DA45 plates, the front truck usually gets another half a turn in and the rear trucks stay where I initally set them.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 01:48 AM   #12
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I found tightening to almost max you can comfortably turn by hand is about right. Then fine tune from there.


Yep, this is how I do it now too. It's a good way to be able to get back to whatever you had before.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 02:37 AM   #13
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I am not a fan of click action. Without fail, there will be at least one truck with the adjustment I want halfway between clicks.

My process for the initial setup of a plate is to spin the top cushion (one closest to the boot) around the king pin while tightening down the action. Once I can not easily spin the cushion, I add half a turn of pre load. Do this to each truck. This sets up all the cushions with about the same pre load on them. Then I skate and adjust from there. On my skates with DA45 plates, the front truck usually gets another half a turn in and the rear trucks stay where I initally set them.
Also a good way, similar technique, concept. But one can't help but wonder if a click (or a turn as the case may be) right or left changes performance that much and why don't they have a better system? It seems extremely crude.

In the world I used be in everything was calculated and deliberate. The bolt would have a torque setting and a corresponding graph of how different weights and temperatures would effect the plasticity of the cushion selected
with a particular torque setting.

But I am not sure those numbers would have any meaning, because in the end it is how it "feels" to you. It would be like trying to describe the taste of a cheesecake recipe.

I'm finding skating is more art then science, and people have many ways of using the particular brush they chose.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 07:54 PM   #14
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But one can't help but wonder if a click (or a turn as the case may be) right or left changes performance that much and why don't they have a better system? It seems extremely crude.
It is until you realize that even in the best of circumstances, tolerances of the various components aren't tight enough to make more precision useful. For instance, the actual durometer of a particular cushion can vary between production pours.

Plus, the click action is intended for repeatability, not precision. In the case of art skating, there are different setups typically for dance and freestyle versus figure circles. To switch back and forth, you simply need to count the clicks.

Quote:
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I'm finding skating is more art then science, and people have many ways of using the particular brush they chose.
You're exactly correct. It's a bit like fitting underwear. What's right for you may be all wrong for someone else. One size decidedly does not fit all.
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:49 AM   #15
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I'm finding skating is more art then science, and people have many ways of using the particular brush they chose.
From my perspective it is both. In order to get the maximum performance out of your sk8s, you really need to understand how they work. Lots of little things that can be an issue. As dvw pointed out, cushion durometer can vary from pour to pour. That essentially means in order to match up the cushions you need a durometer. Adjusting the action to compensate is possible but in most cases it does not do what you think it will do.

One of the things about tightening the action is it changes the response curve of the cushion. Urethane appears to get "stiffer" as it gets loaded until it will stop getting stiffer, because it is essentially solid and will not go past that point. So by tightening the action it will be stiffer to start and will get stiffer faster until it turns solid.

I think one should run the action all the way out and use a combination of cushions to achieve the feel wanted. Sk8s that have a lot of different cushion options will let the sk8r do that more easily than plates with fewer choices. I think than anything past 1 full turn on the action adjustment nut should be telling you a firmer cushion is necessary.

That is just one aspect of the science. The art comes in when you start making it behave the way you want it to.
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Old November 23rd, 2017, 06:39 PM   #16
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"Urethane appears to get "stiffer" as it gets loaded until it will stop getting stiffer, because it is essentially solid and will not go past that point. So by tightening the action it will be stiffer to start and will get stiffer faster until it turns solid."

I like the way you think, it's less objective, more science.
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Old November 25th, 2017, 03:44 AM   #17
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I like the way you think, it's less objective, more science.
You're new - you have no idea!
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