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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old July 2nd, 2016, 07:13 AM   #1
larryoracing
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Smile Broken Synder Imperial King pin.



I have broken very few Douglas Synder King pins. But just the other day I snapped one and luckily I was just skating around and I felt something funny underneath my skate. To my amazement one of my trucks has just broken off my skate.

I just couldn't believe it. Do you know how much force it take to snap a king pin.

Everybody said "that is normal, it happens all the tiime?" "What are you crazy".

So, I went to Ryan Labriola and said do you have any Synder King pins. He looked in his box of synder parts. He said "I do but you won't like the price, 17:00 dollars". I didn't say a word, but I was thinking "come on, $17.00 for one bolt". Ryan replied " I have two, would you like to buy both of them?

I could hardly stop from busting up from laughing. I was thinking "Ryan are you crazy". I said "well I guess if I was smart I should buy four". Ryan said "do you want to pay for them now as I order them...68.00 dollar?"

I was shaking my head "this can't be for real". He did give me a break on the price and said "they are guaranteed for life". I said "well that nice...lol!"

I also learned the heat treated aircraft bolts Ryan was selling came out because they were having a problem with the standard bolt. And the new bolts were dark black compared the to stock silver bolts.

Anyways I replaced two king pin bolts with new heat treated ones and two more are on order.

Happy skating...Larry O
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 11:50 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post

I have broken very few Douglas Synder King pins. But just the other day I snapped one and luckily I was just skating around and I felt something funny underneath my skate. To my amazement one of my trucks has just broken off my skate.

I just couldn't believe it. Do you know how much force it take to snap a king pin.

Everybody said "that is normal, it happens all the tiime?" "What are you crazy".

So, I went to Ryan Labriola and said do you have any Synder King pins. He looked in his box of synder parts. He said "I do but you won't like the price, 17:00 dollars". I didn't say a word, but I was thinking "come on, $17.00 for one bolt". Ryan replied " I have two, would you like to buy both of them?

I could hardly stop from busting up from laughing. I was thinking "Ryan are you crazy". I said "well I guess if I was smart I should buy four". Ryan said "do you want to pay for them now as I order them...68.00 dollar?"

I was shaking my head "this can't be for real". He did give me a break on the price and said "they are guaranteed for life". I said "well that nice...lol!"

I also learned the heat treated aircraft bolts Ryan was selling came out because they were having a problem with the standard bolt. And the new bolts were dark black compared the to stock silver bolts.

Anyways I replaced two king pin bolts with new heat treated ones and two more are on order.

Happy skating...Larry O
i had to replace many of those over the years for skaters and my sons when he was on snyders, not hard to break, but getting harder to come by for sure, the price isnt surprising, wait until u need rolline parts lol.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 05:21 AM   #3
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Default Ah, I remember it well

The day my right front truck sailed out in front of me and I fell in a heap. Ended up pulling something attached to my little finger(tendon or something) and had a fracture in the finger also. I was doing a lot of hockey stops at that time and I'm sure the stress of that caused the failure.

I had a spare kingpin, but the owner of the rink I skated at ordered a set of four titanium kingpins. Never another problem(over 25 years anyway). More than likely, if anyone has access to titanium kingpins - it will be DocSk8.

I love the Snyder plates, but the kingpins - no so much!

Keep rollin
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:33 AM   #4
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How certain are you that the action adjustments may not have shifted enough to reach the point of concentrating too much BENDING force on the KP?

Do you do a lot of high force jump landings when you skate?

I would assume that all Snyder steel kingpins are heat treated to some decent level of strength, especially if they are lifetime guarantee.

Breaking steel KPs is more an indication of excess heat treating → too much hardness and too little toughness.
Metallurgically, well engineered kingpins should always BEND before they break, and by bending, give adequate warning of something wrong, well before breaking and having trucks fall off - or worse.

Kingpins need to have a balance between hardness/stiffness and toughness, The "bend without breaking" spec factor must not have been well considered in this case.

-Armadillo
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Old July 4th, 2016, 02:42 AM   #5
larryoracing
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Smile Yes Armadillo the pivots pin adjustment could of been out of wack!

I actually bought these plates used and never thought about adjusting the pivot pins. So, I'm slowly getting the pivot pin adjustments right. Don't know what exactly right is, but for sure you should not be able to wiggle a truck and have excessive gap in the pivot pin.

So I'm kind of making an adjustment where the pivot pin just hits in the socket and I back it off a notch.

Larry O

P.S. The new kings pin are hardened and I assume grade 8, by Synder Corporation I assume. The old ones were standard silver color and the new ones are dark black.
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Old July 17th, 2016, 06:48 PM   #6
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Single biggest reason for breaking a Snyder kingpin is misadjusted pivots. The Snyder parts are plenty strong enough but if the pivots are off, usually too short, they'll break.

Contrary to popular belief, the titanium kingpin is not stronger. Quite the opposite. Titanium is stronger for a given weight than steel. I've seen them bend and break. And the Snyder Titanium kingpins have been gone for several years.

The Kingpin from a Bont Infinity will fit, however, if you want titanium.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 04:11 PM   #7
Silverado
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Wink King pins breaking, WHY?

I just have to chime in about king pins. I have a pair of Snyder Imperials that I bought back in the early 60's. I'm now 75 years young. I've been off the floor for over 20 years total. I never broke a king pin. I used to power slide all the time on the regular wooden floor. Also used to have to get on the back skater when we did crack the whip and actually slide side sideways to slow them down. Anyway I'm back skating and decided to replace the wheels, bearings and cushion's. I'm having a heck of a time adjusting the cushion's. I emailed Snyder and ask for specific instruction's on how they set them up from installing the king pin on to adjusting the cushion tension. Sent them a photo of my skates. I got an answer back yesterday asking me to send my skates in and let them repair them because I was missing the jump bar. i'm thinking that there must not be any old timers working there anymore, that remember how they were set up.
These skates never had a jump bar and there are several photo's of the Imperial's on eBay without the jump bar. Now back to the king pins. I've read loads of stories about broken king pins and ask myself. There is absolutely no way a king pin should break on a skate except for poor engineering. Engineering cost money. The cheapest way is to change the bolt. If this is a real problem why hasn't there been a recall. I agree with Armadillo about the bolt hardness. I would rather have a bolt bend than snap. Maybe engineering should look at maybe a design change. Just a thought. How many other brands of skates have a king pin problem? Is it more common to break on the front axle, back? Does it ever tear the aluminum out of the plate? I can't believe that someone would not notice a pivot pin so far out of adjustment that it would cause a king pin to snap. You would think the cushions would be shot. And why hasn't Synder put a steel insert in the plate for the pivot pit to seat against instead of wearing on soft aluminium. Maybe they have changed the setup?

Last edited by Silverado; May 11th, 2017 at 03:48 AM. Reason: Miss-spelled word.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 02:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
I just have to chime in about king pins. I have a pair of Snyder Imperials that I bought back in the early 60's. I'm now 75 years young. I've been off the floor for over 20 years total. I never broke a king pin. I used to power slide all the time on the regular wooden floor. Also used to have to get on the back skater when we did crack the whip and actually slide side sideways to slow them down. Anyway I'm back skating and decided to replace the wheels, bearings and cushion's. I'm having a heck of a time adjusting the cushion's. I emailed Snyder and ask for specific instruction's on how they set them up from installing the king pin on to adjusting the cushion tension. Sent them a photo of my skates. I got an answer back yesterday asking me to send my skates in and let them repair them because I was missing the jump bar. i'm thinking that there must not be any old timers working there anymore, that remember how they were set up.
These skates never had a jump bar and there are several photo's of the Imperial's on eBay without the jump bar. Now back to the king pins. I've read loads of stories about broken king pins and ask myself. There is absolutely no way a king pin should break on a skate except for poor engineering. Engineering cost money. The cheapest way is to change the bolt. If this is a real problem why hasn't there been a recall. I agree with Armadillo about the bolt hardness. I would rather have a bolt bend than snap. Maybe engineering should look at maybe a design change. Just a thought. How many other brands of skates have a king pin problem? Is it more common to break on the front axle, back? Does it ever tear the aluminum out of the plate?
Lots of skates have had their kingpins break or bend. None are immune. Could have been a manufacturing defect while being machined, a bad heat treat... etc. I have bent and broken them in crashes. Bends and breaks usually occur when the wheels have hit something that doesn't give way, an abrupt solid hit. Thats how I broke and bent my kingpins. I hit a wall avoiding a kid, with my skate. It marked the wheel but later the skates just didn't seem to steer right, then I took the skates off and set them down, bent kingpin.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 06:20 AM   #9
larryoracing
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Smile Hope this post helps.

Congratulations on being so old. That is fantastic and Iím really thrilled you are skating. I use to think 62 is old, but there are tons of skaters out there that are older than me and to be quite frank about it, they are a lot better skaters than me.

Having said that, I have a about 10 pairs of synder skates, most of them bought off ebay at a ridiculously low prices. And I have noticed there are many subtle differences between synder imperial skates with the jump bars and without. It is possible to have the wrong parts on your skates if they are not the originals you had when you bought the skates. Slight differences in the metal cups, some with indentations to lock down the jump bar, different thickness big nut to tighten everything down and slight difference in the length of the actual king pin.

What this all means is that when all is said and done the king pin is to long for all the individual pieces for your hangers/adjustments. The bolt will actually bottom out into the hanger and never compress the cushions. Everything can be different..the cups, the bolts, the actual length of the pivot pins. Some are longer than others.

Well, enough said. I would send your skates in and have them checked out, because there is no rocket science in adjusting skates, but if for some reasons you donít have all the correct pieces that came on the skates originally things will not work the way they are suppose to.

A perfect test would to be to have two synder imperial skates. One with the jump bar and one without the jumpbar. You would soon seen the subtle difference of all the parts that make up the hanger assemblyÖ.causing you not to be able to adjust your skates.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani and congratulations again on being 72. That is amazing. I hope I make it to 72, but now Iím just happy to be 62 in good shape and skating everyday and being able to compete again after being off skates for 45 years. My first year back!
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:33 AM   #10
Silverado
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Default Thanks for the reply Larry!

Larry, I retired at 72, will be 76 in August.
As I said I contacted snyder and got a reply back from Steve Ball. I sent another letter back and told him that I thought he might be to young to have seen the Snyder Imperials without the jump bar. I am how ever going to send them in. There is a chance that the cushen's I bought were old stock ( not from Snyder ). They just don't seem right to me. Now I've done my own research as far as I can and noticed that original Snyder skates did not use the jump bar. There are several Imperial men and womens skates on ebay that do not have the jump bar. When the company became Douglass Snyder they started using the jump bar. I've looked at a lot of retro Snyders and my findings seem to check out. My skates are stamped Snyder Imperial Skates.
A side note: when I was 16-17 I really was into jumping, and spins, with other fellows at the rink. I never saw a broken kingpin. My kingpin is 45 degree. All snyder skates now have jump bars, 10 /15 / 45 degree. Only the Snyder Advantage doesn't have a jump bar and it's got a 15 degree kingpin.
It seems to me that the engineering is off on the placement of the bar. I think it's to close to the plate. I think it would work better on the bottom. Then the kingpin would be held on both ends. One more note. If kingpins are breaking, I don't want a titainium one. Give me something that will bend. Besides, what good is the jump bar if the trucks are moving enough to snap a king pin? And why doesn't the Advantage model use one. Later Jim
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Old May 12th, 2017, 06:02 PM   #11
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My super deluxe came with a jump bar but it didn't help to keep the king pin from snapping. I only bent one king pin. I have ripped 2 rivets out of my trucks. And I was so careful when I skated


I thought that at one time there was a lifetime warranty on Snyder plates. I guess I was mistaken on what it covered.

As for cushions, you may have to ask specifically for the original formula cushions or they may give you urethane or a different compound that you may find that it feels strange. Best of luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Larry, I retired at 72, will be 76 in August.
As I said I contacted snyder and got a reply back from Steve Ball. I sent another letter back and told him that I thought he might be to young to have seen the Snyder Imperials without the jump bar. I am how ever going to send them in. There is a chance that the cushen's I bought were old stock ( not from Snyder ). They just don't seem right to me. Now I've done my own research as far as I can and noticed that original Snyder skates did not use the jump bar. There are several Imperial men and womens skates on ebay that do not have the jump bar. When the company became Douglass Snyder they started using the jump bar. I've looked at a lot of retro Snyders and my findings seem to check out. My skates are stamped Snyder Imperial Skates.
A side note: when I was 16-17 I really was into jumping, and spins, with other fellows at the rink. I never saw a broken kingpin. My kingpin is 45 degree. All snyder skates now have jump bars, 10 /15 / 45 degree. Only the Snyder Advantage doesn't have a jump bar and it's got a 15 degree kingpin.
It seems to me that the engineering is off on the placement of the bar. I think it's to close to the plate. I think it would work better on the bottom. Then the kingpin would be held on both ends. One more note. If kingpins are breaking, I don't want a titainium one. Give me something that will bend. Besides, what good is the jump bar if the trucks are moving enough to snap a king pin? And why doesn't the Advantage model use one. Later Jim
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