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Old October 27th, 2018, 11:09 PM   #81
ursle
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First, let's look at the way this all started, it's worth reading. Keep in mind, antifa is simply keeping facist's from taking over.

On a cloudy day in early November 1979, a caravan of Nazi and Ku Klux Klan members careened into Greensboro, North Carolina, winding toward a local Communist Workers’ Party protest that had gathered in the city to march against the state’s white supremacists. The communists, wearing berets and hard hats, spotted the fleet and taunted the new arrivals with chants of “Death to the Klan!” The KKK convoy slowed, and stopped. Far-left protesters, bearing both wooden planks and concealed pistols, began surrounding the motorcade, beating the doors. As TV cameras rolled, the trunk of a Ford Fairlane, stuffed with shotguns and rifles, popped open. Someone yelled from one of the cars, “You asked for the Klan! Now you've got ’em!”

Eighty-eight seconds and 39 shots later, five communists lay dead. Eight other demonstrators were wounded, some permanently paralyzed. For a brief moment, the Greensboro Massacre became one of America’s most notorious acts of political blood-letting. And yet, unlike Wounded Knee or Selma, Greensboro has over the decades largely faded from memory.


Except in Portland.

Among the fringe political groups currently waging battle in the City of Roses, Greensboro is well-remembered, even idealized. It is increasingly seen as the inevitable end of the escalating violence that has rocked this city since Donald Trump’s election in November. Left wing “antifas,” wearing red bandana masks alongside other far-left protesters, have rioted multiple times and caused millions of dollars of damage, with threats from left wing groups even forcing the cancellation of a parade because it featured a float from the local Republican Party. Eager to push back against the opposition, white nationalists have begun mixing with anti-government militia members for “free speech” rallies. A man who attended one of these rallies would later stab to death two men on a train when they intervened to stop his anti-Muslim rants against two young women. The norms of protest and counterprotest—mostly verbal shouting and sign-waving—are quickly crumbling in Portland. The left wing antifa have even threatened preemptive violence in the name of the defending the city from groups they say promote violence.

In Portland, Greensboro isn’t a past mistake to be avoided, but a future clash to be courted. Both sides mention Greensboro in conversation. Both sides know the details and the death toll. And both acknowledge Greensboro as an event that may well serve as a model for what’s just around the corner. “My big concern is sooner or later is that we’re going to have another Greensboro Massacre type of event,” Mark Pitcavage, who researches domestic political extremism with the Anti-Defamation League, added. “This is so unlikely to end well.”

***

The fact that Portland erupted as the epicenter in Trump-era political violence in the U.S. is, in a certain sense, surprising. A liberal nirvana, a crunchy, weed-and-hops city where Republicans and plastic bags alike have been all but evicted, Portland has embodied and outpaced many of the urban trends of the early 21st century: gentrification and co-ops, food trucks and footbridges, transitions to a bike-and-pedestrian economy. It is, as a conspicuous show has encapsulated, a progressive paradise.

And yet, as many within and without the city have begun realizing, Portland is a town leavened with a history of rampant racial strife. As the whitest major American city, Portland blossomed in the lone state that constitutionally barred blacks from living there through the 19th century, that acted as one of the primary concentration centers for incarcerating American citizens of Japanese ancestry during World War II, that redlined as severely as any major metropolis elsewhere. That in 1922 saw its chief of police posing alongside hooded Ku Klux Klan members. That brought Jim Crow to the Pacific shoreline.

It’s the type of legal legacy, the type of nod-and-wink encouragement of white supremacy, that not only welcomed any number of Confederate families to relocate to the region in the aftermath of the Civil War, but that, toward the close of the 20th century, saw neo-Nazi and skinhead groups begin to extend their tendrils through the area. Before “Portlandia,” there was “Skinhead City.” In the mid-1980s, skinheads began marching through downtown, hauling bats, pipes and axes. Not long after, the city birthed Volksfront, a neo-Nazi contingent that eventually expanded internationally. In 1988, a trio of skinheads bashed Mulugeta Seraw, an Ethiopian student, to death; the three all received prison sentences, with one tabbed as a “prisoner of war” by other white supremacy groups.

Locals began pushing back. In 2007, a group called Rose City Antifa took form, borrowing the shortened form of “antifascist” for its name. The crew pointed to similar European movements, which had, in places like Germany and Italy, arisen in response to the fascist movements that would eventually crater Europe in World War II. It also tapped into regional currents of anarchism and latent communism. These were the political strains that had sparked, among other things, the 1999 “Battle of Seattle” protests against the World Trade Organization, which resulted in millions of dollars’ worth of property damage in the city.


From its inception, Portland’s antifa contingent cloaked itself in anonymity; as a 2009 story in Portland’s Willamette Week noted, “Little is known publicly about Rose City Antifa.” And little seems to have changed in the decade since. Its unofficial uniform comprises blood-red and black bandanas and hoods, but the group doesn’t keep any official membership rolls, let alone share last names with anyone outside of its circle. “Why do we wear masks? Because [of] instances of antifa people [who] have been assassinated,” says David, a member of Rose City Antifa who, like all group members before him, declined to share his last name with POLITICO Magazine. The historical examples are not recent, but they are well-known in the group: Skinheads murdered a pair of anti-racist activists in Nevada in 1998, luring them to the desert outside Las Vegas, and local antifa have claimed that a 2010 incident in Portland—a shooting that left a self-described anti-racist skinhead in critical condition—was also politically motivated.

For much of its existence, the group largely relied on shout-downs and public displays of force as their primary tactics. Recently they’ve added the cyber weapon of doxxing—exposing personal information such as addresses, places of employment, and dates of birth and schools, even if it means innocent families mistakenly targeted by antifa begin receiving threats. Such tactics have been “effective because they raise the cost of participation,” Stanislav Vysotsky, who researches political extremism with the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater, told POLITICO Magazine.

But now, for antifa, it’s not enough to simply outscream their opposition; rather, those far-right forces must, in a bizarre nod to the Bush Doctrine, be preemptively denied a voice from the outset. “We are unapologetic about the reality that fighting fascism at points requires physical militancy,” Rose City Antifa’s Facebook page reads. “Anti-fascism is, by nature, a form of self-defense: the goal of fascism is to exterminate the vast majority of human beings.” The group does not specify what physical militancy means, but their page makes clear that the definition includes “any means necessary.”

“We’re seeing more people be like, ‘What’s antifa actually about? … Do you just like going and smashing Starbucks windows?’” David says. “And no, we don’t smash Starbucks windows—most of the time.” Or as one of the Rose City Antifa’s Facebook profile pictures read, “Set phasers to kill.”

***

Unsurprisingly, antifa’s assault-related tactics, despite their continued usage, have proven less than effective, according to those who closely follow political extremism in the U.S.


“It just makes [antifa] feel good—they think they made a point,” the ADL’s Pitcavage said. “But their tactics are counterproductive. They haven’t made any dent over the years with those tactics. … And it gives the white supremacists an unbelievable amount of publicity.” After all, a lack of anti-Nazi brawl-and-bash protests weren’t the reasons fascists rose to the fore in Germany and Italy—and there’s little reason to think that depriving neo-Nazis of their First Amendment rights will prove any more successful than the myriad pre-WWII street brawls that failed to slow the rise of fascism in Europe. Pitcavage points out that the far-right has been far deadlier, far more corrosive, than any American antifa contingents over the past few decades—but antifa tactics have only exacerbated and inflamed far-right rosters: “All the antifa tactics do is give extremists more attention, make extremists feel good, feel like warriors—and give them an opportunity to recruit.”

It’s impossible to tell whether the antifa protests have boosted the recruitment efforts of nationalists and white supremacists, but the group’s tactics have not endeared them to mainstream critics on either the right or left. Shortly after Trump’s election, anarchist and far-left protesters rioted in Portland, bringing at least a million dollars’ worth of damage—and resulting, in the eyes of the Department of Homeland Security, in “domestic terrorism.” Further riots followed Trump’s inauguration, and more in the months thereafter. “Their actions—conducted anonymously but brutally—show them to be punk fascists,” wrote an editorial in The Oregonian, slamming those leading the greatest political violence Portland had seen in a generation.

Then, in late April, organizers behind the 82nd Avenue of Roses Parade—a spectacle through one of the more multiracial neighborhoods in Portland—received an email ratcheting tensions even further. Sent from an anonymous account, the email targeted the inclusion of a Multnomah County Republican Party float: “You have seen how much power we have downtown and that the police cannot stop us from shutting down roads so please consider your decision wisely. … This is non-negotiable.” Shaken, organizers canceled the parade; The Atlantic’s Conor Friedersdorf wondered “who this faction on the left will next label a Nazi or a fascist in order to justify their own use of fascistic tactics.” Or as James Buchal, the Multnomah County Republican Party chair, told POLITICO Magazine, “The real concern going forward is that it’s a totalitarian sort of mind-set, where basically [they’re] not going to tolerate Republicans in our city.”

When asked about the threats made to parade organizers, Rose City Antifa didn’t blame right-wing provocateurs posing as local leftists, although they did note that “no one knows who sent [the email].” Rather, the group’s spokesman characterized the cancellation as an overreaction. The email “had some sort of oblique promise of some sort of altercation, they shut down the entire parade, and then acted as if it was a whole big deal,” David says.

Shortly thereafter, alt-right actors organized a “free speech” rally near the parade’s canceled route—a rally attended by a man, Jeremy Christian, who donned an American flag cape, gave Nazi salutes to passers-by, and, a few weeks thereafter, allegedly killed two Portlanders defending a pair of teenagers from Christian’s Islamophobic slurs on a train.


The stabbings of Ricky Best, 53, and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche, 23, only emboldened the antifa protesters, who saw Christian’s ability to speak publicly as a precursor to his violence. “Having a place where you can feel free to express these sorts of racist, bigoted beliefs enables you to go and make rants on a train,” David claimed. “It makes you want to defend yourself when people in the community step up against you.”

One week after the murders, antifa and far-right actors clashed once more, this time at a “Trump Free Speech” rally. Epithets soon transformed into the kind of physical violence antifa had advocated earlier: Portland police said counterprotesters at the alt-right rally sparked the violence by slingshotting bricks, rocks and feces alike, forcing officers to unleash pepper spray on the crowd. As Portland Police Bureau spokesman Sgt. Pete Simpson told the local Willamette Week in late May, “It's never been as vocal as it has been in recent months. … While they're not street gangs, the threat of violence is there.” Or as Kyle Chapman, one of the alt-right spokesmen at the rally, said about the possibility of advocating violence, “It’s not such a bad idea, is it?” This, after Chapman tweeted that it was “open season on antifa.”

And the likelihood of a confrontation may increase if Buchal, the head of the local GOP, follows through on his plans to hire militias—Oath Keepers and Three Percenters—as security at future events, a development he told POLITICO Magazine he’s still considering. “What we’re really seeing are these very strong alliances being forged between Oath Keepers, Three Percenters, and … white supremacists and white nationalists,” Vysotsky said. Added Pitcavage, the Oath Keepers especially have “really, really come on strong against the antifa. … So now into the equation you not only have antifa versus white supremacists, but now you have antifa versus a much larger swath of the far right, which really increases the possibility for all sorts of things going on.”

As of now, any possibilities of dialogue—of a negotiated off-ramp to de-escalate tensions—seem negligible. “When somebody is threatening you with bodily harm, as many of these groups are, sitting down for a conversation is not really something you want to do with somebody like that,” David said. “That’s the unfortunate truth.”

Meanwhile, the next round of protest is scheduled for Friday in downtown Portland. The right-wing Patriot Prayer group has organized a “freedom march” that is expected to attract white nationalists, neo-Nazis, militia and white supremacists. The antifa have pledged to block them. The Rose City Antifa wrote on its Facebook page, that, this time, “enough is enough.”
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Old October 27th, 2018, 11:18 PM   #82
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Now let's look at the actual demonstration that the Patriot Boys, who had an agreement with the police not to be searched during, had a stash of guns hidden, that were brought to light last Monday, the Proud Boys had guns hidden and planned violence and bloodshed.

Portland far-right rally: police charge counterprotesters with batons drawn
Police in riot gear use stun grenades and pepper spray on leftwing groups protesting against Patriot Prayer marchers

Police clash with leftwing groups amid Patriot Prayer rally in Portland – video
A rally by rightwing group Patriot Prayer in Portland, Oregon, culminated in a police charge on counterprotesters on Saturday, as a demonstration once again brought disorder and violence to the city’s downtown area.


Portland fears planned rightwing rally could be 'another Charlottesville'
Read more
Two hours into the rally, police moved towards leftwing counterprotesters with batons drawn, and used dozens of “flash bang” stun grenades and rounds containing pepper spray.

As they moved on the counterprotest, Patriot Prayer marchers chanted “lock them up, lock them up”.

Counterprotesters march in opposition to a rally organized by the far-right group Patriot Prayer in Portland, Oregon.
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Counterprotesters march in opposition to a rally organized by the far-right group Patriot Prayer in Portland, Oregon. Photograph: Terray Sylvester for the Guardian
Portland police sent hundreds of officers in riot gear to the rally, and for most of the day they kept Patriot Prayer, led by Republican US Senate candidate Joey Gibson, and an affiliated group, Proud Boys, separated from their opposition.



Patriot Prayer’s stated beliefs are not neo-Nazi or white supremacist, but his critics say the group’s events have attracted white supremacist elements and have frequently brought serious violence to cities around the US West.

Gibson’s insistence on bringing his supporters repeatedly to the liberal city of Portland has crystallized debate about the limits of free speech in an era of stark political division.

One part of the 1,000 strong counterprotest, billed as “PopMob”, included labor groups, a local Democratic Socialists of America chapter, clergy, community groups. There was also a large contingent of anti-fascists clad in “black bloc” clothing.

As the Patriot Prayer group marched, protesters followed at a distance through neighbouring streets. The charge happened on Southwest Columbia Street, several blocks south of Patriot Prayer’s original rallying point. Police claimed that protesters were throwing missiles at their lines.

One journalist, Eder Campuzano, was struck in the head by a full plastic bottle, causing him to bleed from a head wound, which he said “likely came from a counterprotester”.

A Portland photographer, Doug Brown, said that “the first missile I saw and heard came from the Patriot Prayer side, across the street, towards the protesters”.

“I don’t know who set it off, but it went towards the black bloc. And then the police just swarmed them,” Brown said.

Brown’s tweeted video of the police charge shows them confronting protesters en masse, and attacking him and and other reporters filming from a sidewalk.

Olivia Katbi Smith, co-chair of the Portland Democratic Socialists of America, said the police were not provoked.

A Portland woman was later admitted to hospital after being hit with a flash bang round.

A counterprotester argues with police in Portland, Oregon.
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A counterprotester argues with police in Portland, Oregon. Photograph: Bob Strong/Reuters
Eric Ward, executive director of civil rights organization Western States Center, said that while he believed some counterprotesters made some “bad decisions” by bringing weapons, the police charge “punished every counterprotester for the actions of a few”.

This collective punishment, he said “doesn’t align with the treatment of the Proud Boys and Joey Gibson”.

Gibson had earlier told the Patriot Prayer group that a deal with police meant that they would not be searched in exchange for confining themselves to a barricaded area. No weapons searches were carried out on the Patriot Prayer group.

A counterprotester throws an object towards police in Portland.
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A counterprotester throws an object towards police in Portland. Photograph: Bob Strong/Reuters
Portland police did not respond to requests for comment on weapons searches, or their charge on counterprotesters.

The Patriot Prayer rally had attracted people from all over the country - many wearing the colors of the Proud Boys group, others wearing Trump-branded clothing and Infowars merchandise.

Patriot Prayer’s events attracted widespread attention in the last month after an event in Portland on 30 June that culminated in some of the worst street violence in the city’s recent history.

Saturday’s crowd of more than 400 was one of Patriot Prayer’s biggest to date in a series of over 30 events held in the Pacific Northwest and northern California during the life of the Trump administration.

At the conclusion of the march Patriot Prayer members claimed victory, with Gibson saying that it was an “excellent day, excellent”.

Tusitala “Tiny” Toese, who has been involved in two alleged street assaults outside protests, and who has been arrested at previous protests, told the rally that “today is a big win for America”, that “the cops did their jobs and we’re proud of them”, and that in future, “we’re still gonna come to Portland”.

Toese wore a T shirt bearing the slogan, “Pinochet Did Nothing Wrong”.

Katbi Smith, the DSA co-chair, said “If it’s a victory for them, it’s a victory won by the cops. We outnumbered them.”

US Senate candidate Joey Gibson speaks at a rally in Portland, Oregon.
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US Senate candidate Joey Gibson speaks at a rally in Portland, Oregon. Photograph: Terray Sylvester for the Guardian
After the rally’s conclusion, many Patriot Prayer supporters left on the group’s private buses. But a small number Proud Boys, including Toese, stayed in downtown Portland and engaged in scuffles, and three way standoffs with police and anti-fascists.

Patriot Prayer had bused in supporters from Vancouver, a town over the Columbia river from Portland in Washington state where Gibson is based. A planned rendezvous in a shopping mall in the town was moved after security guards told early arrivals they were trespassing, and a tow truck stood by waiting to take away offending cars.

Saturday’s rally was, in part, billed as a campaign event for Gibson’s bid to become a senator for Washington.
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Old October 27th, 2018, 11:24 PM   #83
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And here we have an article about plans by the

Right-Wing Groups With Guns Plan to Impersonate and Infiltrate Antifa

Months of escalating clashes by far-right groups in Portland, Oregon could turn even uglier at a Saturday rally where the right has threatened to carry guns and infiltrate anti-fascist groups.

Patriot Prayer and the Proud Boys are far-right organizations that have attracted violent racists. The two groups have spearheaded a series of west coast rallies, including a June 30 rally in Portland that descended into violent clashes with anti-fascist protesters. Now they are scheduled to rally on Saturday in Portland, where their leaders have encouraged the carrying of guns and their followers have fantasized about beating up counter-protesters.


Joey Gibson, Patriot Prayer’s leader and a longshot U.S. Senate candidate, variously defends his rallies as a free speech project, an anti-liberal campaign, and a crusade to expose the anti-fascists who counter-message the rallies. In Portland, his group’s stated beef is with anti-ICE activists and the city’s mayor, who initially took a hands-off approach to anti-ICE protests.

“The goal is to get the country so outraged they put pressure on the mayor to actually respect the Constitution,” Gibson said of the upcoming rally during a Tuesday appearance on InfoWars. “Basically that’s what we do. We put so much pressure on the local politicians to the point where they break.”


The August 4 demonstration is also billed as Gibson campaign rally. In a different Tuesday livestream, Gibson discussed plans to create chaos among anti-fascists (antifa), an unofficial collection of leftist protesters who have become bogeymen for the far-right.


“We’re gonna have several people who are gonna be dressed up in black bloc [clothing] and they’re gonna be all amongst their crowd, all through antifa,” Gibson said. “I think it’s time we use the masks against antifa. They don’t know who’s who, they don’t know what is going on. So we’re gonna have tons of people within antifa who are gonna start with them, who are gonna march with them back to us, and not only are they going to be causing havoc for antifa.”

He claimed approximately 35 of his followers, half of whom were Proud Boys, had volunteered for the task.

Gibson said those followers would be armed with “pepper spray that they’re going to be using within, just to get those who are committing crimes.”

A spokesperson for Rose City Antifa, a Portland anti-fascist group says they’re aware of the tactic, but that Gibson has a history of falling short on anti-antifa plans.


“Joey always puts out a lot of contradictory information and boldfaced lies about what he's going to do, so we're taking it with a grain of salt,” the spokesperson said. “We’ll definitely be on the lookout for any suspicious activity.”

But pepper spray will be among the less-lethal weapons at the rally, Gibson said. The rally will take place in a Portland waterfront park, where guns are allowed with a concealed carry permit.

Gibson claimed the location was incidental, because he and his followers are always carrying guns.

“Even if it was my intent to have it at the waterfront so we could have a bunch of guns there, even if that were my intent, that wouldn’t really be a big deal because guns are not weird,” he said during a livestream, in which his young child was seen playing with what appeared to be a semi-automatic gun or replica in the background.


“We have guns on us at all times. And that’s not an extreme statement, that’s completely normal. We have several guns in our house everywhere. I always have a gun on me at all times, we just don’t pull them out.”

Although Gibson instructed supporters not to take any illegal actions, his followers have championed violence on and offline. (A previous Patriot Prayer attendee is Jeremy Christian, a white supremacist who murdered two people who intervened when he yelled at two young women, one of whom was Muslim, on a Portland train last year.)

During a livestream, Gibson said he was shipping in supporters on an armed bus from Vancouver. On Facebook, a Proud Boy who has reportedly clashed with anti-fascists and attended past Patriot Prayer events, wrote of using the buses to beat down counter-protesters.

“If the ninjas try to rush the bus again this weekend, [Proud Boy guards] will let 2 or 3 lucky ones on the bus and say, ‘now youse cant leave’ and the rest will watch in horror through the glass on what happens,” he wrote, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. “itll be be [sic] a great show, like looking at hookers thorough the glass in Amsterdam.” Facebook profiles reviewed by The Daily Beast reveal one planned attendee promoting the fascist terrorist book “Siege.” Another Patriot Prayer attendee, who this year shot and killed a homeless man in front of witnesses but was never indicted, reportedly posted in Patriot Prayer Facebook comments that “ANTIFA BLOOD WILL FLOW LIKE THE **** RIVER IN THIS CITY…YOU ARE PATRIOT OR TRAITOR!!!! YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED PUSSIES!!!!”


In recent months, Proud Boy and Patriot Prayer associates have also been accused of attempting to start fights with the left. One Proud Boy, Tusitala "Tiny" Toese, has been involved in a number of escalating incidents in the Pacific Northwest since 2017, Willamette Week first reported.

In two recent incidents, Toese and associates have been accused of driving through town, either shouting “Build the wall!” or flying a Confederate flag. When passersby yelled at them, the far-right demonstrators allegedly jumped out of their car and attacked.

Most recently, Toese and other Patriot Front and Proud Boys affiliates have attempted to goad anti-ICE protesters. When Gibson livestreamed the confrontation, during which Toese threatened protesters, a commenter told Toese to “save” his energy for “for the 4th,” the SPLC reported.

Rose City Antifa said they hoped this Patriot Prayer rally would mark the last of the clashes.


“The general thing we're looking for on Saturday is a large block of the community to come out and tell these groups that enough is enough, and that the violence and threats they're carrying out against the Portland community need to stop,” the group’s spokesperson said.

During his livestreams, Gibson warned that anti-fascists would attack his group, but also implied violence against anti-fascists.

“We’re gonna have a whole bunch of people within antifa, and they’re going to take care of business within their group too,” he said.

“It’s hard to do what we’re doing. It’s easy to do what they do until they get punched in the face and knocked out and have to go to the hospital.”
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Old October 27th, 2018, 11:29 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by sk84luv View Post
You may think you aren't condoning violence, but the black hooded fascists in Portland do this crap for a living.

Next time someone gives you the finger, what are you going to do, smash his car?
Now it seems, the anti-facist's are taking the city back from the facist's, good.

Again, a local man got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time and was aggressive, not smart, and drove aggressively, the crowd, who by the way were composed of the public, reacted, because the last time a car was in a crowd, in Charlottesville, someone was killed.

just the Facts.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 07:00 AM   #85
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Default typical when your ignorant you start making accusations about family

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Originally Posted by ursle View Post
This first post is Coo Coo for CoCoNuts.

The FBI started Facebook, so it can lower the population, right.

yes thats right


This second post just affirms the Coo Coo for CoCoNuts first post as being uninformed drivel, honestly, let your grade school kids moderate your online activity, or not, if not, prepare to remain a trollish bore.

mirroring is when the troll calls others trolls.

Or, start fact checking the unverified alternate BS that you pitch, to an audience of like minded conspiracy theorist.
face book has absolutely no need for my image you ignoramis.
my posts seem borish to you but i dont need to bore people to tears with 2000 word essays like you do.wish your wrote you own material .Were you an A grade student? because if i checked your work you would have low marks for copy paste, and your copy pastes are mostly cnnnnnn type trash.
does coolaid taste good? just wondering.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 02:52 PM   #86
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... but i dont need to bore people to tears with 2000 word essays like you do...
It seems you do not understand why it is very important that ursle provide the large amount of backup information he does.

In my work I've provided a fair number of what are known as "Executive Summaries" to company leadership. These summaries are usually a very brief description of a problem and its solution. It is not a good use of a top executive's time to fully explain all the many many complex details and extensive research efforts. The leadership trusts that the competent technical staff and teams have done a thorough job reaching its conclusions.

Here at this site... nobody really trusts anybody. Here a correct and prefectly acceptable 'Executive Summary' is not believed... and so ursle shows a large amount of legitimate 'foundational data'. It is very sad that many here do not have the inclination or ability to take in the actual background facts and then compare the facts with their closely held positions to consider whether or not their positions are reasonable or unreasonable.


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Old October 28th, 2018, 03:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by bjvircks View Post
It seems you do not understand why it is very important that ursle provide the large amount of backup information he does.

In my work I've provided a fair number of what are known as "Executive Summaries" to company leadership. These summaries are usually a very brief description of a problem and its solution. It is not a good use of a top executive's time to fully explain all the many many complex details and extensive research efforts. The leadership trusts that the competent technical staff and teams have done a thorough job reaching its conclusions.

Here at this site... nobody really trusts anybody. Here a correct and prefectly acceptable 'Executive Summary' is not believed... and so ursle shows a large amount of legitimate 'foundational data'. It is very sad that many here do not have the inclination or ability to take in the actual background facts and then compare the facts with their closely held positions to consider whether or not their positions are reasonable or unreasonable.


"Brawndo! It's what plants crave!"
ursle is untrustworthy. His data is wholly or partially lies. Having gone to the tedium of checking his stuff out a few times, he has destroyed his credibility. You go through the copious amounts of stuff he posts, only to find it is crap. You do it a few more times just to be sure, and get the same result. Then you stop wasting your time. One definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. ursle's data is crap. Continuing to comb through it will not yield a different result. Does it all make sense now? I have him on ignore. I do occasionally take a peek at how long his latest tirade is though, just for a chuckle. I laugh at the notion that he thinks I would read it, and cry for the poor sops that actually do.
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Old October 28th, 2018, 06:05 PM   #88
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ursle is untrustworthy. His data is wholly or partially lies. Having gone to the tedium of checking his stuff out a few times, he has destroyed his credibility. You go through the copious amounts of stuff he posts, only to find it is crap. You do it a few more times just to be sure, and get the same result. Then you stop wasting your time. One definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. ursle's data is crap. Continuing to comb through it will not yield a different result. Does it all make sense now? I have him on ignore. I do occasionally take a peek at how long his latest tirade is though, just for a chuckle. I laugh at the notion that he thinks I would read it, and cry for the poor sops that actually do.
As I explaned, if you have facts that are different, or otherwise can show my facts to be incorrect, go ahead and post them, otherwise, rufus, I've yet to see you post anything but fiction and innuendo, including a hundred or more threads just this summer of trollish fiction, and yes, you must have secret ways of avoiding facts and truth, not my problem, but rant on.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 03:11 AM   #89
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ursle is untrustworthy. His data is wholly or partially lies. Having gone to the tedium of checking his stuff out a few times, he has destroyed his credibility. You go through the copious amounts of stuff he posts, only to find it is crap. You do it a few more times just to be sure, and get the same result. Then you stop wasting your time. One definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. ursle's data is crap. Continuing to comb through it will not yield a different result. Does it all make sense now? I have him on ignore. I do occasionally take a peek at how long his latest tirade is though, just for a chuckle. I laugh at the notion that he thinks I would read it, and cry for the poor sops that actually do.
The only time I see usles'r stuff is when someone replies to it, ignore button is a fine thing, no use reading stuff you don't believe in the first place. I don't read it anymore either... 3 or so lines is enough... .lol...
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Old October 29th, 2018, 04:53 AM   #90
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... no use reading stuff you don't believe in the first place. I don't read it anymore either... 3 or so lines is enough...
and here we go again, classic example of someone even appearing to be proud of their cognitive dissonance driven actions.

"...researchers showed that when confronted with challenging new information most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information...."
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Old October 29th, 2018, 06:11 AM   #91
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"...researchers showed that when confronted with challenging new information most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information...."
So the answer is to engage, engage, engage, right? Not gonna happen. The best way to deal with a Troll is to ignore them.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 10:35 AM   #92
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So the answer is to engage, engage, engage, right? Not gonna happen. The best way to deal with a Troll is to ignore them.
Wondering, is the troll the person listing facts, that asks for corrections if any are wrong, or is the troll the person listing unfact-checkable nonsense, and in this particular person's case, regularly, gets kicked off Facebook for trolling.

Facts Matter.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 12:54 PM   #93
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and here we go again, classic example of someone even appearing to be proud of their cognitive dissonance driven actions.

"...researchers showed that when confronted with challenging new information most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information...."
So I see you have a mind that works with "information" or "theory"? Well being a technician... I leave stuff out that doesn't work to repair things back to working order. Hope that makes sense, those "parts" that don't work or 'information" that is fluff or has no part in fixing the problem is left out or put in the trash, basically a distraction. It only causes loss of time and focus, so why bother?
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Old October 29th, 2018, 04:05 PM   #94
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Hi fierocious1... Thanks for responding without insults or attacks. This is the beginning of productive dialog.

I guess I've always known you to be a practical, hands-on guy.... 'get the job done'. Me to.

In my past situation (now recently retired) I needed to understand and work with very large number of considerations of many different types in order to arrive at the most overall balanced design solution for aircraft avionics. Solutions had to include A, B, C, etc. in certain proportions or the equipment would not be viable. I cannot just ignor stuff I don't want to pay attention to.

In similar fashion... our present world is a very intricately interconnected web of social, economic, political, geographic and ecological influences. We need to be willing to look at viable information (we all agree that not all info is viable) and daily use it to challenge our understanding. Sometimes our current understanding will be rightfully upheld and sometimes it will be found lacking in some area. We all need to be able to allow ourselves to constantly recalibrate our understanding. This means going beyond confirmation bias.

But to outright not allow yourself to accept and use viable information is how we stayed in the dark ages. Rainbows were a sign of a magic promise. Entrails and tea leaves were read to know the future. A lunar eclipse foretold doom.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 06:54 PM   #95
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Hi fierocious1... Thanks for responding without insults or attacks. This is the beginning of productive dialog.

I guess I've always known you to be a practical, hands-on guy.... 'get the job done'. Me to.

In my past situation (now recently retired) I needed to understand and work with very large number of considerations of many different types in order to arrive at the most overall balanced design solution for aircraft avionics. Solutions had to include A, B, C, etc. in certain proportions or the equipment would not be viable. I cannot just ignor stuff I don't want to pay attention to.

In similar fashion... our present world is a very intricately interconnected web of social, economic, political, geographic and ecological influences. We need to be willing to look at viable information (we all agree that not all info is viable) and daily use it to challenge our understanding. Sometimes our current understanding will be rightfully upheld and sometimes it will be found lacking in some area. We all need to be able to allow ourselves to constantly recalibrate our understanding. This means going beyond confirmation bias.

But to outright not allow yourself to accept and use viable information is how we stayed in the dark ages. Rainbows were a sign of a magic promise. Entrails and tea leaves were read to know the future. A lunar eclipse foretold doom.
I understand the need to change with conditions.. no problem there. However I also work with some boundaries, such as, when I find an issue that is a chronic rather than acute problem, that is just that an issue, I decided to NOT get bent out of shape over it. Remove the problem and move on. Some people I can deal with within certain boundaries, no problem with that, but I won't keep being fed from a source I consider unreliable. So rather than get in a fight like is expected(intolerance), just cut it out, the others that I can talk to are good enough.
You may think it is wrong to cut out the line of information, I consider it a way to not have to dig through a pile of crap to get to the final answer. I can cut and paste with the best. I choose not to.
A choice to not get into another fight over what I don't believe or consider reliable.

Lately taking a break from all this was good, had a little time and have been back. My focus is more on my work now than ever so... I'm enjoying the snowball affect on my end. The shop is running well and orders are just growing and growing, so no need to get into a fight on here, then carry it into my own shop. Tiny shop, efficient shop, fun times....
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Old October 29th, 2018, 07:30 PM   #96
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The shop is running well and orders are just growing and growing...
There is something that is so very deeply satisfying about creating something physical that is useful and beneficial. A justly earned sense of pride.

sorting thru information today is no easy task. I recently read an article that focused on how troublesome it can be even for experts. The articles' example was two studies that seemed to say 100% different things... but both studies were well done and both were completely correct. The problem was coming about because non-expert people were reading the two studies and did not understand the researchers were purposefully and appropriately looking at different types of datasets and evaluating using different contexts. Study A said a specific population demographic, relative to conditions A,B,C was "better off". Study X, looking at the same demographic relative to conditions X,Y,Z said they were "worse off".

Both studies were 100% correct in the niche they were examining.

However... people that couldn't be bothered with figuring out what they were looking at took BOTH studies out of context and would call one fact and the other fiction.
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Old October 29th, 2018, 11:40 PM   #97
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There is something that is so very deeply satisfying about creating something physical that is useful and beneficial. A justly earned sense of pride.

sorting thru information today is no easy task. I recently read an article that focused on how troublesome it can be even for experts. The articles' example was two studies that seemed to say 100% different things... but both studies were well done and both were completely correct. The problem was coming about because non-expert people were reading the two studies and did not understand the researchers were purposefully and appropriately looking at different types of datasets and evaluating using different contexts. Study A said a specific population demographic, relative to conditions A,B,C was "better off". Study X, looking at the same demographic relative to conditions X,Y,Z said they were "worse off".

Both studies were 100% correct in the niche they were examining.

However... people that couldn't be bothered with figuring out what they were looking at took BOTH studies out of context and would call one fact and the other fiction.
The nich is the key to the outcomes. A person can look very specifically in a direction or within guidlines and find wrong or good in just about anything. The guidlelines guide the tests.
A while back I was in intense arguments for years with Armadillo. He says I cannot do what I do with DA45 skates pertaining to dividing up steering and dampening in a quad skate. I did it and argued it for years with him. The ranges change on both when done correctly. I had tested it over and over again and reproduced the handling affects on multiple sets of skates.
I had devised a plan, to prove my results, no more opinion, just plain data. So I designed a plate tester to measure input/output relationship in the quad plate. Before I could finish, I moved 2 hours away. So the test piece sat in a bucket for nearly 3 more years. I built it, tested with it and produced data. Armadillo argued that it could not be done and that, IIRC SG or some other mfg said so. The data proved I could so as I said. However, it is specific to DA45s as the geometry of the truck design is the "niche", or the pivotal piece that makes it all work the way I had discovered it to.
Armadillo died soon after the proofing and data was presented here. He was beginning to understand what I had been explaining to him, but was hung up on his assumption that the mfgs "knew all". Discussions with DOC SKATE kind of imply otherwise as well, mfgs don't know nearly as much as people give them credit for.
Plainy, I started the search for a skate with specific criteria, inexpesive, tuneable to the extreme and deadly accurate handling with a response that can also be tuned. I got it, all of it.
Now what I believe, I will argue, very hard. What I know nothing about I will pass on the arguement, but possibly will state something pertaining to it if I think it is pertinent.
If I feel something needs investigation, I'll hunt it down, if not, well.... but not losing sleep over constant barrages of copy and paste from some other source.
Now there are lay people on here giving analysis, if they want to analyse, maybe they should analyse themselves a bit. Do they have a liscence, are they a practitioner? Do they have hands on experience that has or has given plenty of positive results? In my field, I have stacks of "atta boy" papers. I know what I know, if I don't know, all I can do is try to figure it out, piece by piece until I do. But a lay person, not in my field work.
I realize this is a long post, however maybe you can see what I try to do from it. I do watch both sides of the fight between dems and reps, cnn, cbs,. and so on vs fox. none are perfect, however, if I were going to make an error, I would like to make an error being a republican not a democrat. Once an individual gives up a right, you most likely will never get it back. NO one needs to chip away at my rights, as no one needs to change the constitution.
It's a lot like a circuit in your home, most are rated at 200 amps her in the south. Well I have machinery that draw power. If I were setting up a small welding shop, I could easily cause heat damage to connections through the heaviest loaded circuit. At this point in time, my house is running very efficiently on less than 100 amp circuit feeding my home, machine shop, wood shop and storage. It has balance and priority. Its about how things are done. I could not feed all this stuff with out staying within certain guidlines. Take away those guidlines and soon you will buying a new shop or home.
You appear to be competant in your field, otherwise you would not be still doing what you do. I have been working for big production facilities and small ones since 1979, been a tech consistantly since 1984. You do not remain a tech if you can't get it done. In your field, same goes, for any technical field, being able to find the problem and fix it is what keeps you in that field.
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Old Yesterday, 05:47 PM   #98
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Neither Patriots Prayer, or Proud Boys were in Portland smashing up the Lexus of a stranger in town.

Gotta love your friends in the black hoods. You must be blood brothers. You lose.

Back on topic, now it turns out....the police were on the side of the Facist, they were supplying the facist with intelligence, you can't make this stuff up.

Portland Mayor Orders Investigation of Friendly Texts Between Police and Far-Right Demonstrators


The mayor of Portland, Oregon, asked the city’s police chief to investigate “disturbing” text messages sent between a police lieutenant and the leader of a far-right group that organized rallies attended by violent extremists.

The texts, published Thursday by the Willamette Week, show that Portland’s commander for the police rapid response team, Jeff Niiya, was in communication with Joey Gibson, the leader of a group called Patriot Prayer, as Gibson organized far-right demonstrations in 2017 and 2018. Their texts were described as “friendly” and sometimes joking.

In one exchange from December 2017, Niiya asked Gibson about his companion’s arrest warrant. The man in question frequently fights antifascist protesters and has allegedly assaulted bystanders, according to the Week. “Just make sure he doesn’t do anything which may draw our attention,” Niiya responded. “If he still has the warrant in the system (I don’t run you guys so I don’t personally know) the officers could arrest him. I don’t see a need to arrest on the warrant unless there is a reason.” He also said that officers had ignored the warrant at a previous protest.


“The released text messages, which I learned about in today’s Willamette Week, are disturbing,” Portland mayor Ted Wheeler said in a statement. “It is imperative for law enforcement to remain objective and professional, and in my opinion, these text messages appear to cross several boundaries. They also raise questions about whether warrants are being enforced consistently and what information is being shared with individuals who may be subject to arrest.”

A police spokeswoman told the Week that it was “not uncommon for officers to provide guidance for someone to turn themselves in on a warrant if the subject is not present.” She added: “In crowd management situations, it may not be safe or prudent to arrest a person right at that time, so the arrest may be delayed or followed up on later.”

According to the Week, Niiya also told Gibson where unrelated leftist protests were taking place, and the two joined in complaining about a reporter from the Oregonian. The two even talked about Gibson running for office, an idea that prompted Niiya to tell Gibson, “Good for you.”


Gibson’s group, Patriot Prayer, organized rallies in the wake of President Trump’s election in which far-right protesters clashed with antifascist groups. One man who associates with Patriot Prayer, Jeremy Christian, has been accused of fatally stabbing two men who were trying to protect a pair of black women from Christian’s anti-Muslim rants on a Portland metro train.

A member of the city council first called for an investigation. “This story, like many that have come before it, simply confirms what many in the community have already known,” Commissioner Jo Ann Hardesty said in a statement. “There are members of the Portland police force who work in collusion with right-wing extremists.”

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