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Old March 8th, 2018, 11:58 PM   #81
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So...... what about heat induced friction. (or friction induced heat. )

What I mean is, are we able with our feeble little efforts, to generate enough heat in a bearing for the metal to expand?

What would be the difference with ceramic balls. Ceramic certainly will not expand.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 12:10 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by rufusprime99 View Post
So...... what about heat induced friction. (or friction induced heat. )

What I mean is, are we able with our feeble little efforts, to generate enough heat in a bearing for the metal to expand?

What would be the difference with ceramic balls. Ceramic certainly will not expand.

A skater can weld bearings rock solid if they hold up under the right conditions and you stop skating to let the metals fuse. Usually though the bearings just come apart first, since we dont have static radial loading ya know. Like a vacuum cleaners bearings on the brush do, where they are held in place rather well, and when the meltdown happens, lol well. Next time you fire it up the brush won't spin and you melt down a belt, they spin quickly, but probably not much faster than our skate wheels at higher speeds, and have very little load on them.

Everything expands under temperature rise, just how much differs between materials.

When we start rolling heat is generated, every time. It's only a problem when things go out of the operating ranges.
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Old March 9th, 2018, 02:53 PM   #83
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I like this guy's opinion, (Rockin-Ron) I suspect Rat Vision is under the influence of some advertiser or supplier, the crush test is to vague, and NASA has different results, I think I'll stick with NASA test figures.

We here’s what I’ve learned. I am a bearing engineer of almost 20 years dealing with miniature bearings for skate, aircraft, aerospace, and NASA applications dealing with all aspects of design, and ABEC specification. More recently my nephew and I started our own High Tech Bearing Company six months ago, Ok enough ********. The ABEC is the allowable tolerance. The ABEC 1 tolerance for the bore of a 608 bearing is .3150″ +.0000 / -.0003″.==== that means the Bore could be anywhere from .3147-.3150″ (8MM). ==== ABEC 7 is .3150 +.0000 / -.0002. (.3148-.3150) What does all this mean??? The Abec tolerance is all but INSIGNIFICANT in a skate application. Skateboard Truck Axels are not manufactured to the same tight tolerances as the Bearing. And the O.D. of the Bearing goes in a flexible urathane wheel. This eliminates any possible advantage of the Abec tolerance would give to assure accurate fit. The Abec is the DIMENTIONAL TOLERANCES. The Abec tolerance does cover out of roundness and for this reason I would use ABEC 3 or better. Almost any bearing with the country of origin on the bearing except for china will be Abec 3 or better. Back in the 80’s they had to sort bearing lots to get the Abec 3 and Abec 7 Bearings. Todays modern machines make to Abec 3 or better even if they are marketed as abec 1. They will have an Abec 3 price and a Abec 1 price to give you a choise, but it will be the same Abec 3 bearing. ANY BEARINGS FROM CHINA WILL NOT BE BETTER THAN ABEC 1. China will put “ABEC 7” or “FUCK YOU” on the bearing if you order 5000 or more!! No laws in China against that. You cant mis-mark the bearings in the other bearing manufacturing Countries. Bearings with a Metal Ball Cage have a 40,000 RPM Rating. Plastic Cage = 100,000-150,000 RPM.

WHAT IS IMPORTANT. 1) The Manufacturer. All Chinese bearings are crap. All those weird name brands are ****. Top of the Line bearing manufactuers make 608’s with the proper Raceway Curvature, cages and internal clearances. WIB, GMN, GRW and NMB manufacture the best bearings in the world for skateboard. For those of you not fimiliar with these names, WIB makes all the bearings for “Bones” All Bones bearings marked “Swiss” are manufacturered by WIB Miniature Bearing in Switzerland for Bones. GMN and GRW make all the German Bearings no matter what name may be marketet on the shield. Plastic or non-metalic ball cage will make more way more difference in speed than any ABEC change.
OPTIMAL BEARING: I have used everything in the world, Ceramics manufactured just for my SkateBoard, Abec 9, Bearings Manufacturered by every bearing company in the world. I have access to over 400 Lubricants in my field.
The best bearing by design right now is the Super Swiss 6 by Bones with SpeedCream. The Bearing had several advantages. 1) It is manufactured by WIB Bearing. 2) They are made with a tight Raceway curvature to avoid “Excess Axial Play” 3) They are supplied with a Re-enforced plastic cage rated at 150,000 RPM 4)Laberinth Non-Contacting Rubber Seals to keep out dirt. This is the obtimum design for free rotation and keeping out contamination.
Ceramic Ball Bearings are only good if they come with Plastic or Phenolic Ball Cages. As a Hardcore skater skating 4-5 days a week. Super Swiss 6 with Speed cream cant be beat. Fuc* the Abec rating. The Abec rating is designed so that the bearing has manufacturing consistancy in order to manufacture mating parts to simular tolerances. (Re: Precision Shafting and Housings.)

Oh Yeah
… one more note on why the Super swiss 6 has lower starting and running torque (This is Known as Speed to us skateboarders)
All 608’s are made with 7 ball compliment. The Super Swiss 6 is the ONLY 608 manufactured with a 6 ball compliment. The Balls all bigger, can take higher load (Impact), Have less ball surphase touching the raceway with 6 balls instead of 7 which lowers the running torque of the bearing making the bearing get to full speed quicker. I am sure within the next year you will start seeing more 6 ball designs, but right now its WIB(Bones) that makes ’em…At all possible, stick with German or Swiss with Plastic or non-metalic ball cages. Any bearing with a steel cage will be slower no matter where it’s made. Grease is just an oil with a thickener, the thickener in the grease will slow down your bearing and running just oil will attract contaminates from far away and not provide proper protection. Use the Good-old Speed Cream in the skate shops. By buying German or Swiss what is important is you will know the bearing is manufactuered by a very high quality bearing manufacturer who does the final raceway polishing what the chinese dont, and who it is. There are so many names and marketing stratagies going on with Chinese Bearings, you will get lost in it all. At my old Company we brought in Chinese Bearings for .12 Each. We had the Stamping machines to Mark the Shields. We did PIG,GIRL,SPEED DEMONS, and several others. All were from the same manufacturing lot with different color/marked shields. Any of those weird brands are probably a .12-.18 cent bearing made by the millions with no quality control and several key manufacturing processes left out in order to sell the U.S. for .12 cents.
Bearings marked “Thailand” = NMB
Bearings marked “German” = GMN or GRW
Bearings marked “Swiss” = WIB Bearing
Someone mentioned to me SKF Bearings. SKF Bearings are manufactured in almost every country in the world. SKF no longer manufacturers miniature bearings and hasen’t for over 10 years, SKF Contracts out their miniature bearings to the Miniature Bearing Manufactuers. Last year it was IKS and NTN. Could be someone different next year. SKF Specialises in Large Bearings. Don’t use SKF….
. . . . . .
Yes, the Bones-Chinese[Reds] are in the same class as the other Chinese Bearings. Bones China are may be a little better than the other China or unmarked brands as far as consitancy since they probably been using the same China trading Company for years, but still is a .12-.14 cent bearing.
. . . . . . .
On your third question the smaller balls tend to brinell the bearing races easier than the larger ball will. A brinelled race will have little indends from the balls impact, basically destroying the bearing. Thicker races will make the bearing a little stronger from the standpoint of cracking the races, but that should be a rarity. But Brinelling the bearing is more common than cracking races..Should be…
As far as Bearing failure, Brinneling is one reason, Lack of proper lubrication is #1 cause for bearing failure because once you run metal on metal and balls and raceways get scored, everything will wear and fail quickly.

As far as Oust Bearings…Its another Marketing Stategy. Look, it comes down to everything I said in these bearing post as far as the bearings configuration. Notice the low end Oust MOC5 is “Carbon Steel Cage” with standard non-contacting rubber seals. Their Rolls royce is the MOC9. Here is their desciption of the Seal “The Moc 9 Buna Non-Contact Seal is set into a U-channel design in the inner and outer races to keep all foreign particles out of the ball area. It also stops any oil leakage that might occur on a standard bearing seal.” THIS IS THE LABYRINTH INNER RING and seal weve been discussing that the Bones-Swiss, Black Hole Bearings have. The MOC9 also comes with a non-metalic cage….thats what makes it quicker than the MOC5. No matter what brand you like, 1) get bearings with a non-metalic cage 2) Buy the bearings with the Labyring inner ring and seal design,no matter what they may call it. Your bearings will outlast a dozen sets of the old style shielded bearings.
. . . . . . .
The Swiss and German manufacturers make their 608 with a tighter raceway curvature as well (harder to mfr.) than the Chinese. This eliminates a lot of excess axial play(end play)in the bearing.
. . . . . . .
….As far as installing, VERY good question indeed. You can ruin a bearing installing it before it turns even once on your axel. The Rule is “Only apply preasure to the ring being mounted.” To put the bearing in your wheel, some people put the bearing on the axel, unside down and press the wheel on the bearing. BAD ! The pressure against the balls can brinnell the raceway if hit with too much force. Since the Outer Ring is being mounted in the Wheel you need to apply preasure to the outer ring only! Not the inner ring. I use an Old bearing that I disassembled and have the outer ring only, put it against the outer ring of the bearing being mounted, and a small block of wood and rubber mallet. As far as removing them, another good reason not to re-use the bearings. The same rule applied to dis-assembly if the bearing is to be salvaged. However, there is no way of removing the bearing using the outer ring. Even the bearing pullers must remove the bearing by pulling on the inner ring. Brinelling will not happen everytime you mis-mount the bearings, but the degree of damage can be so slight, you may not notice. Yes, I use a bearing puller when removing bearings, however, bearing pullers were desighed for alot bigger, more durable bearings. Using a Bearing Puller on a Miniature can and will cause at least microscopic damage almost every time. Remember: Only apply pressure to the ring being mounted. Alot of people ruin their bearings before they even start!!!

Yes, the Bones-Chinese[Reds] are in the same class as the other Chinese Bearings. Bones China are may be a little better than the other China or unmarked brands as far as consitancy since they probably been using the same China trading Company for years, but still is a .12-.14 cent bearing.
. . . . . . .

High hardness. The hardness of ceramic materials runs from about Rc75 to 80, compared to about Rc 58 to 64 for steel.

High compressive strength. The compressive strength of ceramic materials is about 5 to 7 times that of steel.

Since silicon nitride ball bearings are harder than metal, this reduces contact with the bearing track. This results in 80% less friction, 3 to 10 times longer lifetime, 80% higher speed, 60% less weight, the ability to operate with lubrication starvation, higher corrosion resistance and higher operation temperature, as compared to traditional metal bearings.[20] Silicon nitride balls weigh 79% less than tungsten carbide balls. Silicon nitride ball bearings can be found in high end automotive bearings, industrial bearings, wind turbines, motorsports, bicycles, rollerblades and skateboards. Silicon nitride bearings are especially useful in applications where corrosion, electric or magnetic fields prohibit the use of metals. For example, in tidal flow meters, where seawater attack is a problem, or in electric field seekers.[12]

From Rat Vision, notice that nothing is specific, but everything is vauge, and the crush test say's the steel bearing crushed at 22,000 pounds, but the machine only has a 20,000 pound capability, every other study by engineers and NASA disagrees, I think Rat Vision is either taken out of context or just false, BTW, can't find the test on the Oust bearings anywhere, the bearings that Rat Vision "Tested"

Pressure Test

In Rat Vision's testing of ball bearing strength, a PHI laboratory press, model P210H-X1824, was used. Ceramic and steel bearings were tested for compression strength. The types of bearings tested are as follows:

The P210H-X1824 is rated to 2000 pounds of pressure.

1. Ceramic bearings: The ceramic bearings tested were the top-of-the-line product from a very well-known bearing manufacturer located in the USA.

What manufacturer and exactly what bearing ball.

2. Three separate brands of steel bearings, made in China, which are sold by American companies and found in most skate shops.

3. One steel bearing product manufactured in the USA.

No mention that it was supposedly an Oust bearing

The results are shown in pounds of compression:

"Top of the line" ceramic bearing shattered at ..................................8800
"Swiss made" steel bearing made in China split at ............................7200
The most popular steel bearing made in China failed at ...................7800
A semi-popular steel bearing made in China failed at ......................7700
The American made steel bearing failed at ....................................22,000

Rat Vision's findings show the steel bearings manufactured in the USA are far and away the strongest of the bearings tested. We should note that perhaps not all American made bearings will fail at around 22,000lbs. Our test proves that Swiss made and ceramic balls are not superior than steel.

Seems to be conjecture

So, in summation, steel cages...bad.
Steel balls gall, meld to steel cages, and rust...bad
Bones speed creme when cold is grease like, you can see it, when warmed up is slick, you can feel it...good.
Hybrid Cerbec Silicon Nitride bearings with exact precision tracks...good.
Stainless steel tracks or ball bearings are softer than steel...bad.
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Old March 10th, 2018, 02:13 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Honestly, it's like reading one of Rufus's 180 degree backward's post's.

But somehow worse.

Cold bearings need to warm up before they will spin well.
Speed creme needs to warm up as well.
Let's just call out some bearing myth's.

Bearings with metal cages are speced to spin at a top speed of 40,000 rpm.
Bearings with nylon/plastic cages are specedto spin at 100,000-150,000 rpm.
Ceramic balls are 60% lighter than steel balls.
Steel balls crush with 2 tons of pressure.
Ceramic balls don't crush with 20 tons of pressure.
Steel balls display integrity issues at 400 degrees celsius.
Ceramic balls display integrity issues at 2000 degrees celsius.
Ceramic bearings have 1/10th, the friction of steel bearings.
Ceramic bearings don't corrode or gall (cage and ball fusing)
Bones bearings are made by WIB
GMN and GRW bearings are made in Germany
NMB bearings are made in Thailand
Six ball bearings spin up to running speed faster than seven ball bearings

Bones Swiss Ceramics are the fastest skate bearings you can buy, period. A winning combination of Bones precision ground and polished races, fiber reinforced high speed ball retainer, Cerbec silicon nitride ceramic balls, Speed Cream racing formula lubricant, and a frictionless, non-contact shield.

BTW, if you're going to skate outdoors and expect at some point to get wet, you want ceramic bearings.
BTW, you only want hybrid ceramic bearings.

Good post Ursle.
I think the reality is there is no human skater that will ever truly exceed the limitations of any bearing.
I have a set of Bones Reds, Super Reds and Swiss L2 bearings. The only difference I can tell is the L2 bearings seem a bit smoother on the roll but I don't feel any set is faster than the other.
Leftists have stacked skulls into mountains throughout the 20th century..... there is no reason to believe anything about them has changed...
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Old March 10th, 2018, 04:20 AM   #85
Sk8 Ninja
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I work with ceramic materials quite often, and they have good abrasion resistances. However their fracture resistance is total crap.

Also the PHI machines all start at 20 tons(40,000lb limit). Not 2 ton machines. Look it up.

The presses that we use at work to mold parts run about 500 to 1500 psi, and they break ceramic plates /bricks pretty much every day. Ceramic bearings aren't special for skating, not at all.

Their appeal to use is for corrosive environments, or in case of full ceramic, magnetic issues force those types of bearings to be used.
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"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
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Old March 10th, 2018, 02:53 PM   #86
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I took temperature readings about 4 years ago of bearings pre and post session.
"Liberal Logic", not possible.... a phrase in conflict with itself....
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Old March 12th, 2018, 05:20 PM   #87
Join Date: Apr 2016
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it's very difficult to say which ine is the best.
the best i used where skf 627 sold as abec 5. simple 627zz.

i tried china redz....sold them...slower than others
i have acutally speedmax rolline abec9...considered as top of the line by skateus...compared to fafnir...but not really impressed.

maybe, the quality has lowered or i' m getting old.another thing i don't do know is downhill at 60 mph...i catched cars and rolled at 70 mph in tge past...maybe it break in more the bearings.
i don't know but my skf rolled better in free spin and kn road than all i ordered since.

i had a new set of skf 627zz ...what i try actually it to spin it on the bench with a drill...at 3100rpm/minute...top speed of my drill....to see if it has an impact on performance.

i understand it could just be an imagination but why people say this or this bearing is better....i don't have all the bearings....if i read everything...i should find fafnir and order qube 8 balls anf gold, bones swiss ceramic and bones super 6 and others ...

what i'm sure is that i had recently the bones redz and they are lower in quality than classic skf or rolline speedmax....
i had bsb red cage swiss....and they were not excellent...i had themon inline and quad....sold them too....poor quality on the last set and that was my first set on inline when i start and was very impressed by them...so quality has maybe lowered.

really i don't know what to think but i can't really imagine there is no reason people seem to reasearched a past bearing performance. there is surely a mix of solutions....

1- the age of the guys ?
2-quality of bearings that goes down?

personnally, i think my old bearings worked better in the same brand...i had a leg longer time in the air when i pushed and they rolled better.

so nothing i can do except compared bearings but each time i try some...i'm first please and say yes bu after fewer miles i'm really disappointed....

age could be an expicztion but i doubt for me...the bezrings are bad now or i must breakin them at higher speed.
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Old March 16th, 2018, 08:21 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
drag was so big of an issue for a set of bearings to slow a person down while skating, you would see it in the form of heat and could measure the difference with a digital thermometer after a few laps. Friction creates heat. Bearings that do have heat in motors or other devices get their heat from the motors and devices themselves. When the bearing does fail from lack of lubrication, heat is then created in the bearing and the bearing can actually melt down, if there is enough HP to keep the motor running with the friction. I have seen large electric motors self destruct from bearing failure and it is a bizarre sight to behold! What happened to the worst motor failure I have witnessed is that the bearing failed and the sensor that was in the motor detecting motor temperatures was bypassed by a technician. This resulted in heat increasing so much and the motor's horsepower was so much it did not stop but kept running. The heat kept climbing until the shaft heated up enough to bend. And bend it did! After the destruction and fire, the end of the motor was gone, bell housing gone. Opposite end broken apart. Gearbox water jacket/housing blown apart. In the end the shaft was bent about 30 degrees at the bearing race. When the shaft hit the floor it was red hot! The motor was a 350hp DC electric motor, 100% duty cycle.... Bad to the bone!
That is what friction and heat does. Skates bearings do not make that kind of heat, ever...
I tore down a motor last week with bearings in it not much bigger than what we use in skates. The old grease was turned to almost a solid. It stalled the bearing and produced so much friction that it slowed the motor. Just enough to slow the motor down to keep it from reaching running rpm, which overheated the windings in the motor. Killing the motor. I shot degreaser in the bearings and gave them a spin.... smooth again.... funny how that works.... The bearings did show some heat but the old grease killed the motor...not the bearings
Now this is rational, scientific, logical reasoning, and will have no more of it!

I paid a lot for my my bearings with the yellow shields, plus they look good with my Roll-Line fake gold plated wheel nuts. I look so professional my competition just gives up! I could show you all kinds of alternative facts and reasoning to your science, so don't mess with my bearings man!

Yah, I agree it's 90% BS, all about branding. We might as well be arguing about which toothbrush prevents more cavities.

Honestly, I can't think of anything with less impact on a skaters performance then his bearings, not even his or her laces.
Boots: Riedell 297, Plate: R-L Energy, Wheels: R-L Panther Light 55MM 95A, Me: 165 lb, 6'2"
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Old March 16th, 2018, 12:35 PM   #89
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Fafnirs for me...
When an ancient bearing beats out new.That to me says alot.
And I've got most name brand bearings and prefer Fafnirs.
Bone swiss.
Bone ceramic
Qube 8 ball
Nsk.gmb.labeda super bearing.ksk.skf.nachi.s
Bont minis and more.
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