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Old August 30th, 2019, 05:06 PM   #1
John Nicholas
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Default Toe stop vs. Jam plugs for beginners

My daughter just recently bought a new pair of skates and her silly dad suggested that she get jam plugs... but since I don't really know what's truly best for a beginner (I used jam plugs many years ago) what do you suggest??

Is it better to start out with toe stops?

We do indoor skating only. She has learned the basics of a forward T stop, but is not yet comfortable doing them.

I want to ensure she has a good skating experience and don't want to hinder her learning the basics.

Thank you!
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Old August 30th, 2019, 07:29 PM   #2
Mort
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nicholas View Post
My daughter just recently bought a new pair of skates and her silly dad suggested that she get jam plugs... but since I don't really know what's truly best for a beginner (I used jam plugs many years ago) what do you suggest??

Is it better to start out with toe stops?

We do indoor skating only. She has learned the basics of a forward T stop, but is not yet comfortable doing them.

I want to ensure she has a good skating experience and don't want to hinder her learning the basics.

Thank you!
She needs stoppers in very few situations.

Backwards skating mainly. When rolling forwards a "stopper" is little better if at all than a T stop.

When skating backwards however, one can dump a large amount of force into them to stop fast.

She should learn T Stops, plow stops, spin stops, then 1 foot plows, then hockey stops.

T stops dont actually make a T, it's more like a wide V 45 deg to 70 deg foot position. The skater will be plying their arch of the braking foot into the heel of the gliding foot. The breaking foot should stay most under the skater, not behind them. The fore/aft foot separation is approximately a little less than a half step.

Pressure is applied to the outside wheels, with the inside slightly lifted up. This helps keep the skate flat on the floor. If you put pressure on the inner wheels it tends to roll over on the lips. Less pressure is better until the skater can control the move.
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Old August 30th, 2019, 10:39 PM   #3
zebra1922
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I'd advise it's better to start with toe stops. Gives confidence and an alternate way to stop, can also be used to recover balance.

There are some schools of thought you can learn bad habits with a toe stop, and maybe you do but when I started I wanted that security for both forward and backward stopping, bit of balance aiding. As you get better you move the stopper closer to the boot then decide whether to swap for a jam plug (depends on the skating, I'm aiming for toe jumps so will need the toe stop).
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Old August 31st, 2019, 10:47 AM   #4
wizzlefashizzle
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If skating with Jam plugs is what she wants to do, then best to let her have them while she's learning, that way she doesn't get into bad habits (using toe stops at full pelt backwards). I skated 27 years with toe stops, then made the transition to jam plugs, it was like learning to skate again. My 10 year old son put jam plugs in for the first time last week after having months on toe stops. He fell once or twice, but it's so worth getting used to jam plugs to have the freedom on your toes. On the other hand, I got my 18 year old daughter onto Jam plugs after 10 years of skating, only a few months ago. she was terrified to start with, as she'd already developed bad (toe stop) habits, she's got much more confidence now, but does still frighten herself at times. To help her with the transition though, I did cut a portion of her toe stop away with a hack saw, so she could get used to a higher toe stop for a while. Hope this helps
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Old August 31st, 2019, 03:07 PM   #5
Dazzler
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It depends on what kind of skating you are doing. Toe stops are essential for artistic skating as half of the major jumps use a toe stop assist. You can't do a Mapes, Flip or Lutz jump without toe stops. Even right at the start you can't do a bunny hop or a simple half-mapes without them. Toe-stops aren't just for stopping, they can be a major power and speed assist. So removing them limits your skating quite a bit, whereas I have no problem whatsoever skating on my toes, doing barrel rolls, grapevines, etc with my toestops in. Whereas the most of the jumps I can execute and half of the ones I plan on learning can not be done without the toe stops. There are types of skating that work much better without them but certain moves are absolutely impossible without them.

I also park skate and in my experience toe-stops are also a valuable part of quad vert. They assist on ramp climbs when necessary. Power assists. Some 'tricks,' like a mid-ramp stop and jump. And again, if you want to include artistic elements to vert skating, you are likely to 100% need the toe stops.
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Old August 31st, 2019, 05:21 PM   #6
Mort
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Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
It depends on what kind of skating you are doing. Toe stops are essential for artistic skating as half of the major jumps use a toe stop assist. You can't do a Mapes, Flip or Lutz jump without toe stops. Even right at the start you can't do a bunny hop or a simple half-mapes without them. Toe-stops aren't just for stopping, they can be a major power and speed assist. So removing them limits your skating quite a bit, whereas I have no problem whatsoever skating on my toes, doing barrel rolls, grapevines, etc with my toestops in. Whereas the most of the jumps I can execute and half of the ones I plan on learning can not be done without the toe stops. There are types of skating that work much better without them but certain moves are absolutely impossible without them.

I also park skate and in my experience toe-stops are also a valuable part of quad vert. They assist on ramp climbs when necessary. Power assists. Some 'tricks,' like a mid-ramp stop and jump. And again, if you want to include artistic elements to vert skating, you are likely to 100% need the toe stops.
https://youtu.be/OhB5aL6hU4g

He doesnt use a stopper for the jump, but on the incorrect he does.

Some things arent hard to do without stoppers, some are ridiculous. Like lateral toe stepping on the front axles or jam plugs.

For any pivoting move you have to replace the stable stationary stopper with a flick of the toe in proper lateral force and rotation. It takes a lot of practice.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 02:14 AM   #7
John Nicholas
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Thank you so much for all the fabulous responses! They are greatly appreciated!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
She needs stoppers in very few situations.

Backwards skating mainly. When rolling forwards a "stopper" is little better if at all than a T stop.

When skating backwards however, one can dump a large amount of force into them to stop fast.

She should learn T Stops, plow stops, spin stops, then 1 foot plows, then hockey stops.

T stops dont actually make a T, it's more like a wide V 45 deg to 70 deg foot position. The skater will be plying their arch of the braking foot into the heel of the gliding foot. The breaking foot should stay most under the skater, not behind them. The fore/aft foot separation is approximately a little less than a half step.

Pressure is applied to the outside wheels, with the inside slightly lifted up. This helps keep the skate flat on the floor. If you put pressure on the inner wheels it tends to roll over on the lips. Less pressure is better until the skater can control the move.
She's getting pretty good at the T stops, and does them at the shallower than 90 degree angle.

Can you please explain what plow stops, spin stops and 1 foot plows are??

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizzlefashizzle View Post
If skating with Jam plugs is what she wants to do, then best to let her have them while she's learning, that way she doesn't get into bad habits (using toe stops at full pelt backwards). I skated 27 years with toe stops, then made the transition to jam plugs, it was like learning to skate again. My 10 year old son put jam plugs in for the first time last week after having months on toe stops. He fell once or twice, but it's so worth getting used to jam plugs to have the freedom on your toes. On the other hand, I got my 18 year old daughter onto Jam plugs after 10 years of skating, only a few months ago. she was terrified to start with, as she'd already developed bad (toe stop) habits, she's got much more confidence now, but does still frighten herself at times. To help her with the transition though, I did cut a portion of her toe stop away with a hack saw, so she could get used to a higher toe stop for a while. Hope this helps
My daughter is 15 and she truly knows what she wants. She really appreciated your comments and has stated that she is going to stick with the jam plugs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzler View Post
It depends on what kind of skating you are doing. Toe stops are essential for artistic skating as half of the major jumps use a toe stop assist. You can't do a Mapes, Flip or Lutz jump without toe stops. Even right at the start you can't do a bunny hop or a simple half-mapes without them. Toe-stops aren't just for stopping, they can be a major power and speed assist. So removing them limits your skating quite a bit, whereas I have no problem whatsoever skating on my toes, doing barrel rolls, grapevines, etc with my toestops in. Whereas the most of the jumps I can execute and half of the ones I plan on learning can not be done without the toe stops. There are types of skating that work much better without them but certain moves are absolutely impossible without them.

I also park skate and in my experience toe-stops are also a valuable part of quad vert. They assist on ramp climbs when necessary. Power assists. Some 'tricks,' like a mid-ramp stop and jump. And again, if you want to include artistic elements to vert skating, you are likely to 100% need the toe stops.
My daughter has no interest (at least at this time) for artistic skating or park skating. She told me today that she wants her skating to be fun and will not put any pressure on herself to learn difficult moves. That skating is her relaxing time!

She already is in a Korean K-Pop dance group, is in all Honors classes in High School and wants to start artistic ice skating!!

So we are fine with her just rolling around the rink with whatever effort she aspires to devote to it. Today I could see much improvement and it's only the second session on her new skates. I was very proud of her, she was giving advice and pointers to a young teen beginner at the rink today!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
https://youtu.be/OhB5aL6hU4g

He doesnt use a stopper for the jump, but on the incorrect he does.

Some things arent hard to do without stoppers, some are ridiculous. Like lateral toe stepping on the front axles or jam plugs.

For any pivoting move you have to replace the stable stationary stopper with a flick of the toe in proper lateral force and rotation. It takes a lot of practice.
That is amazing form and control. But I know that's not something I have any desire to do. The dedication, skill and determination to skate in that manner is admirable and awe inspiring, but Neither my daughter or I have any interest in skating artistically.

Thanks for sharing all your comments and suggestions!
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Old September 1st, 2019, 07:47 AM   #8
Mort
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Default Just demos, no talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nicholas View Post

She's getting pretty good at the T stops, and does them at the shallower than 90 degree angle.

Can you please explain what plow stops, spin stops and 1 foot plows are??
T stop((my own fb post)
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970


Plow stop.(my own FB post)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970

This covers a visual example of a traditional plow using 2 feet, then selectively using a left and right foot plow as well as the backward variants.

Spin stop(didnt have a personal one, so here ya go)
https://youtu.be/z68G_fvlCUQ


Hockey stops , (my own FB post)
https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql...EzMzQ5OTE1MzY3

If you watch the hockey stop video , all a hockey stop realy breaks down to is a 1 foot plow stop while simultaneously dragging the other foot as a T stop. So getting those 2 prerequisites , a good 1 footed plow with the right foot, and a good left footed T stop will really help one learn a hockey stop. Those 2 stops , while different help to build the muscles needed for a hockey stop and the skill needed to make a foot slide as weight modulation goes.

If you need a real breakdown of how to's I'll be happy to help. Or link a video that someone else has already done a good job with.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 10:10 AM   #9
Oicusk82huh
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Default Hello and welcome!!!!!

I wasn't sure where to post a "hello," but I see this is the most current thread, so I'm going off topic a little bit. I live in Poughkeepsie and skate at Rollermagic too! I'm sure you've tried Wooden Wheel and Skatetime 209. Those are the other local spots. It's great to see a local skater! Welcome back.

Come say hi! I have the same skates as your daughter, only bright blue suede, you'll see me and my son, he's 18 and used to be the manager of Rollermagic (he's on blades). We always set up cones in the middle to practice slalom. If your wife needs a pair of blades, but not sure which kind, I have about 5 different pairs she could try on (various sizes) they are always in my trunk.

About the jam plug. Applause! Better to start out and get used to one thing, rather than try to switch it up and risk getting hurt. With jam plugs, you have a lot more room to play. Cheers!
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Old September 1st, 2019, 01:18 PM   #10
ursle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nicholas View Post
Thank you so much for all the fabulous responses! They are greatly appreciated!!

My daughter is 15 and she truly knows what she wants. She really appreciated your comments and has stated that she is going to stick with the jam plugs!

My daughter has no interest (at least at this time) for artistic skating or park skating. She told me today that she wants her skating to be fun and will not put any pressure on herself to learn difficult moves. That skating is her relaxing time!

She already is in a Korean K-Pop dance group, is in all Honors classes in High School and wants to start artistic ice skating!!

So we are fine with her just rolling around the rink with whatever effort she aspires to devote to it. Today I could see much improvement and it's only the second session on her new skates. I was very proud of her, she was giving advice and pointers to a young teen beginner at the rink today!!

That is amazing form and control. But I know that's not something I have any desire to do. The dedication, skill and determination to skate in that manner is admirable and awe inspiring, but Neither my daughter or I have any interest in skating artistically.

Thanks for sharing all your comments and suggestions!
Getting mixed messages, you state she want's to start artistic skating after saying numerous times she doesn't want to learn artistic skating?

Anyway, as you're located where there may be ice rinks, why not go try one, ice skates are way lighter and learning to skate on ice is fun, after learning on ice roller skating is simple, all the same moves in slo-mo, slo-mo because the heavy skates slow your motions.

And...learning with toe stops would be safer, after learning how to run on them and to jump and turn backwards at speed and screech to a halt, two moves for safety, then going to jam plugs might make sense.

Wrist guards will save young wrists.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 08:09 PM   #11
John Nicholas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oicusk82huh View Post
I wasn't sure where to post a "hello," but I see this is the most current thread, so I'm going off topic a little bit. I live in Poughkeepsie and skate at Rollermagic too! I'm sure you've tried Wooden Wheel and Skatetime 209. Those are the other local spots. It's great to see a local skater! Welcome back.

Come say hi! I have the same skates as your daughter, only bright blue suede, you'll see me and my son, he's 18 and used to be the manager of Rollermagic (he's on blades). We always set up cones in the middle to practice slalom. If your wife needs a pair of blades, but not sure which kind, I have about 5 different pairs she could try on (various sizes) they are always in my trunk.

About the jam plug. Applause! Better to start out and get used to one thing, rather than try to switch it up and risk getting hurt. With jam plugs, you have a lot more room to play. Cheers!
Didn't know if there was anyone on the forum who was local, that's great to hear!!

We didn't really like Wooden Wheels so much... their rentals were horrible and the floor looked like it hadn't been cleaned in a while. Even worse was the kids on those blasted triangle thingies, going in every direction... it was a challenge dodging them. Then the parents/adults kept crossing the floor while we were trying to skate...

We didn't stay there very long, certainly less than a half hour.

Haven't been to 209 yet... but it is on the list of rinks to visit. Yesterday we went to Rollarama in the Albany area, then went to Guptill's for ice cream and got to see that rink with the lights on and people on the floor. But my wife and daughter want to return there to skate!

My wife really appreciates the offer of the skate trial. Thank you!

I'll be at Roller Magic on Wednesday night... daughter starts school the next day and my wife will be knitting, so I will be on my own!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Getting mixed messages, you state she want's to start artistic skating after saying numerous times she doesn't want to learn artistic skating?

Anyway, as you're located where there may be ice rinks, why not go try one, ice skates are way lighter and learning to skate on ice is fun, after learning on ice roller skating is simple, all the same moves in slo-mo, slo-mo because the heavy skates slow your motions.

And...learning with toe stops would be safer, after learning how to run on them and to jump and turn backwards at speed and screech to a halt, two moves for safety, then going to jam plugs might make sense.

Wrist guards will save young wrists.
Sorry I was a bit confusing.... my daughter is not interested in ROLLER artistic skating, but she is very interested in Figure Skating on ICE.

She has her own reasons for this, we asked her why and she stated that the roller skating was for her enjoyment, she wasn't interested in taking lessons or stressing about it.

Yes, she is planning on taking lessons for Figure Skating...

Wrist guards will be on the list of stuff to get!

Again thank you for your advice, help and input.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 08:13 PM   #12
John Nicholas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
T stop((my own fb post)
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970


Plow stop.(my own FB post)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...00000401564970

This covers a visual example of a traditional plow using 2 feet, then selectively using a left and right foot plow as well as the backward variants.

Spin stop(didnt have a personal one, so here ya go)
https://youtu.be/z68G_fvlCUQ


Hockey stops , (my own FB post)
https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql...EzMzQ5OTE1MzY3

If you watch the hockey stop video , all a hockey stop realy breaks down to is a 1 foot plow stop while simultaneously dragging the other foot as a T stop. So getting those 2 prerequisites , a good 1 footed plow with the right foot, and a good left footed T stop will really help one learn a hockey stop. Those 2 stops , while different help to build the muscles needed for a hockey stop and the skill needed to make a foot slide as weight modulation goes.

If you need a real breakdown of how to's I'll be happy to help. Or link a video that someone else has already done a good job with.
WOW!! Thank you so much for sharing the videos! I truly appreciate the time you took to do so.

It's a huge help!
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Old September 1st, 2019, 11:08 PM   #13
Mort
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nicholas View Post
WOW!! Thank you so much for sharing the videos! I truly appreciate the time you took to do so.

It's a huge help!
Welcome. I just had to dig them up, I made them quite a while ago. It's not a big deal hope you learn something. As before, if you need help with descriptions as to what is going on in them, just ask and give me a time stamp.
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Old September 12th, 2019, 04:52 PM   #14
BretMan
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Do jam plugs serve any real functionality? It always seemed like they were invented just because rink owners harped on “your skates MUST have toe stops” and they wanted to avoid damage to their skate floors. Jam skating lent itself to moves where the big toe stops just got in the way and jam skaters would always take them out. This was always a big battle between rink owners and skaters.

I suppose that little tiny piece of plastic would offer some protection to a skate floor. Possibly even some protection to the skate’s plate, keeping the toe stop threads clean and undamaged. Beyond that, do jam plugs offer any other benefit or practical use?
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Old September 12th, 2019, 05:07 PM   #15
Mort
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Do jam plugs serve any real functionality? It always seemed like they were invented just because rink owners harped on “your skates MUST have toe stops” and they wanted to avoid damage to their skate floors. Jam skating lent itself to moves where the big toe stops just got in the way and jam skaters would always take them out. This was always a big battle between rink owners and skaters.

I suppose that little tiny piece of plastic would offer some protection to a skate floor. Possibly even some protection to the skate’s plate, keeping the toe stop threads clean and undamaged. Beyond that, do jam plugs offer any other benefit or practical use?
Plates without a stopper boss will hit the boot, so no issues there most of the time.

Plates with a stopper boss will wreck a floor if left empty in almost all cases.
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