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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old July 2nd, 2016, 08:13 AM   #1
larryoracing
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Smile Broken Synder Imperial King pin.



I have broken very few Douglas Synder King pins. But just the other day I snapped one and luckily I was just skating around and I felt something funny underneath my skate. To my amazement one of my trucks has just broken off my skate.

I just couldn't believe it. Do you know how much force it take to snap a king pin.

Everybody said "that is normal, it happens all the tiime?" "What are you crazy".

So, I went to Ryan Labriola and said do you have any Synder King pins. He looked in his box of synder parts. He said "I do but you won't like the price, 17:00 dollars". I didn't say a word, but I was thinking "come on, $17.00 for one bolt". Ryan replied " I have two, would you like to buy both of them?

I could hardly stop from busting up from laughing. I was thinking "Ryan are you crazy". I said "well I guess if I was smart I should buy four". Ryan said "do you want to pay for them now as I order them...68.00 dollar?"

I was shaking my head "this can't be for real". He did give me a break on the price and said "they are guaranteed for life". I said "well that nice...lol!"

I also learned the heat treated aircraft bolts Ryan was selling came out because they were having a problem with the standard bolt. And the new bolts were dark black compared the to stock silver bolts.

Anyways I replaced two king pin bolts with new heat treated ones and two more are on order.

Happy skating...Larry O
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 12:50 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post

I have broken very few Douglas Synder King pins. But just the other day I snapped one and luckily I was just skating around and I felt something funny underneath my skate. To my amazement one of my trucks has just broken off my skate.

I just couldn't believe it. Do you know how much force it take to snap a king pin.

Everybody said "that is normal, it happens all the tiime?" "What are you crazy".

So, I went to Ryan Labriola and said do you have any Synder King pins. He looked in his box of synder parts. He said "I do but you won't like the price, 17:00 dollars". I didn't say a word, but I was thinking "come on, $17.00 for one bolt". Ryan replied " I have two, would you like to buy both of them?

I could hardly stop from busting up from laughing. I was thinking "Ryan are you crazy". I said "well I guess if I was smart I should buy four". Ryan said "do you want to pay for them now as I order them...68.00 dollar?"

I was shaking my head "this can't be for real". He did give me a break on the price and said "they are guaranteed for life". I said "well that nice...lol!"

I also learned the heat treated aircraft bolts Ryan was selling came out because they were having a problem with the standard bolt. And the new bolts were dark black compared the to stock silver bolts.

Anyways I replaced two king pin bolts with new heat treated ones and two more are on order.

Happy skating...Larry O
i had to replace many of those over the years for skaters and my sons when he was on snyders, not hard to break, but getting harder to come by for sure, the price isnt surprising, wait until u need rolline parts lol.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:21 AM   #3
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Default Ah, I remember it well

The day my right front truck sailed out in front of me and I fell in a heap. Ended up pulling something attached to my little finger(tendon or something) and had a fracture in the finger also. I was doing a lot of hockey stops at that time and I'm sure the stress of that caused the failure.

I had a spare kingpin, but the owner of the rink I skated at ordered a set of four titanium kingpins. Never another problem(over 25 years anyway). More than likely, if anyone has access to titanium kingpins - it will be DocSk8.

I love the Snyder plates, but the kingpins - no so much!

Keep rollin
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 07:33 AM   #4
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How certain are you that the action adjustments may not have shifted enough to reach the point of concentrating too much BENDING force on the KP?

Do you do a lot of high force jump landings when you skate?

I would assume that all Snyder steel kingpins are heat treated to some decent level of strength, especially if they are lifetime guarantee.

Breaking steel KPs is more an indication of excess heat treating → too much hardness and too little toughness.
Metallurgically, well engineered kingpins should always BEND before they break, and by bending, give adequate warning of something wrong, well before breaking and having trucks fall off - or worse.

Kingpins need to have a balance between hardness/stiffness and toughness, The "bend without breaking" spec factor must not have been well considered in this case.

-Armadillo
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Old July 4th, 2016, 03:42 AM   #5
larryoracing
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Smile Yes Armadillo the pivots pin adjustment could of been out of wack!

I actually bought these plates used and never thought about adjusting the pivot pins. So, I'm slowly getting the pivot pin adjustments right. Don't know what exactly right is, but for sure you should not be able to wiggle a truck and have excessive gap in the pivot pin.

So I'm kind of making an adjustment where the pivot pin just hits in the socket and I back it off a notch.

Larry O

P.S. The new kings pin are hardened and I assume grade 8, by Synder Corporation I assume. The old ones were standard silver color and the new ones are dark black.
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Old July 17th, 2016, 07:48 PM   #6
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Single biggest reason for breaking a Snyder kingpin is misadjusted pivots. The Snyder parts are plenty strong enough but if the pivots are off, usually too short, they'll break.

Contrary to popular belief, the titanium kingpin is not stronger. Quite the opposite. Titanium is stronger for a given weight than steel. I've seen them bend and break. And the Snyder Titanium kingpins have been gone for several years.

The Kingpin from a Bont Infinity will fit, however, if you want titanium.
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Old July 18th, 2016, 04:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post
Single biggest reason for breaking a Snyder kingpin is misadjusted pivots. The Snyder parts are plenty strong enough but if the pivots are off, usually too short, they'll break.

Contrary to popular belief, the titanium kingpin is not stronger. Quite the opposite. Titanium is stronger for a given weight than steel. I've seen them bend and break. And the Snyder Titanium kingpins have been gone for several years.

The Kingpin from a Bont Infinity will fit, however, if you want titanium.
DVW, while it's true that the strongest alloy steels can easily be heat treated to a higher strengths than Grade 5 titanium alloys, higher strength is NOT always going to make a skate part hold up better. Higher strength parts can often be more brittle and lack the toughness needed to handle the shock loading of skating duty, thus fracturing where a less strong part might just flex, but not fail.

The highest strength readily available Ti alloy for threaded fastener parts tops out at about 150KSI, which is stronger than normal Grade 8 steel fasteners. However, Ti fasteners in the 125-130KSI tensile strength range are more the normal - just a bit lower than Grade 8 steel.

Higher tensile strength is not always better. Some lower strength alloys can have other properties that make them superior for skate parts - like toughness (better yield strength with more elongation before deformation), fatigue strength (better tolerance of cyclical bending loads without cracks propagating across the parts); and better corrosion resistance.

Titanium Facts from TiKORE INDUSTRIES.
Comparison of Grade 5 & 8 Steel vs 7075 Aluminum vs Grade 5 Titanium


Grade 5 Alloy Steel (commonly used on automobiles for lug nut and lug bolt applications)
Yield Strength: 92,000psi
Ultimate Tensile Strength: 120,000psi
Shear Strength: 72,000psi
Density: .284 lb/in^3

Grade 8 Alloy Steel (used for lug nuts and lug bolts in high strength applications):
Yield Strength: 130,000 psi
Ultimate Tensile Strength: 150,000psi
Shear Strength: 90,000psi
Density: .284 lb/in^3

7075 Aluminum (used on various automobiles for lug nut and lug bolt applications):
Yield Strength: 73,000psi
Ultimate Tensile Strength: 83,000psi
Shear Strength: 48,000psi
Density: .102 lb/in^3

Grade 5 6AL-4V Titanium (Tikore's preferred material):
Yield Strength: 128,000psi
Ultimate Tensile Strength: 138,000psi
Shear Strength: 79,800psi
Density: .160 lb/in^3

Additional note: Titanium has an extremely high resistance to corrosion.

As presented above, titanium bolts/nuts have a strength that is very comparable to grade 8 steel bolts/nuts that are used in high strength applications. Furthermore, based on the density figure above grade 5 titanium is 45% lighter than steel components.


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Old July 18th, 2016, 10:23 AM   #8
larryoracing
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Smile Thankyou for the posts DVW and Armadillo.

I actually did a few things wrong on my skates.

I usually don't adjust pivot pins....lol! But now I do.
I do feel my pivot pins were adjusted too short. So I adjusted them out to what I think is good. I just adjusted them out until they touched the cup and backed them off a hair?

But I had some other problems. One, when I got these skates they didn't have cross bars. So I bought some, but I didn't realize you need special nuts that index to the cross bars.

Also the new bolts I got....I assume grade 8 are just a tad longer than a standard synder kingpins. So, I had to put an extra washer on the end of the king pin bolt so the king pin would not bottom out, not letting the cups to compress on the rubbers.

That's what happens when you try to save money and you really don't know what you are doing.

Sincerely,

Larry O and thanks for the information. I think you are both right...LOL!
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Old December 12th, 2016, 06:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post
Single biggest reason for breaking a Snyder kingpin is misadjusted pivots. The Snyder parts are plenty strong enough but if the pivots are off, usually too short, they'll break.

Contrary to popular belief, the titanium kingpin is not stronger. Quite the opposite. Titanium is stronger for a given weight than steel. I've seen them bend and break. And the Snyder Titanium kingpins have been gone for several years.

The Kingpin from a Bont Infinity will fit, however, if you want titanium.
DVW
I sk8 on Snyder Imperials and while they are SUPPOSED to be adjusted and kept in adjustment, the locknut for my front kingpin cannot be tightened (long story, too long for this post).
As I sk8, it tends to loosen and after several weeks of sk8ing it's so loose I can tell 'something' is different and I simply reach down and tighten it (with my fingers) and keep on sk8ing (did that at nationals this year and kept on sk8ing). I have titanium kingpins with that big 9/6" hex head so it is easy for me to tighten it by hand.
You say the pivot pin MUST be seated firmly in the pivot pin cup for things to work properly. If the king pin is so loose that the truck flops around when the sk8 is off the floor, the pivot pin is nowhere firmly seated in the cup. I have yet to break a titanium kingpin on these sk8s, and I've been using these sk8s with the same kingbolts for almost 20 years (over 30 years on the Imperials).
I did, however, break 2 of those "unbreakable" black steel kingpins, like, maybe 25 years ago. Both were "right front" and when I pushed (power stroke), I heard the truck fall onto the floor. Luckily, I didn't fall since I heard it fall off. Snyder guarantees them so if you ever break one, they guaranteed they would replace it. Snyder doesn't go to nationals anymore so I still have one of the broken ones in my sk8 bag.
Looking at any bolt, from a mechanic/engineer's point of view, it's common knowledge that the inherent weakness is where the threading stops on the shank of the bolt. Where is all the stress on the Snyder kingbolt/kingpin ?
Right where the threads stop.
Where do all the Snyder bolts break ?
Right where the threads stop.
The titanium bolts are threaded (almost) all the way to the head. Is there much/any stress at that point ?
I've never seen one break the head off. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a titanium kingpin break. I'm sure some have but not when I've been around to see it.
I've heard of people putting grade 8 bolts in their Snyders and breaking them, too. I just never tried those bcuz of my history with Snyders and my titanium bolts.

Fella came up to me at a regionals 7 or 8 years ago and asked what I'm sk8ing on.
Snyder Imperials.
His response - "that's old, obsolete, 60's technology. You need to get something new and modern."
I decided to play with him so I asked "If I get a pair of those new-fangled rollER line plates, will that make me sk8 better ?
There was this pause while he let my comment sink in, he had this deer-in-the-headlites look on his face and he said, "forget what I just said. I can't beat you anyway." He turned and walked away and didn't speak to me again for several years.
I finally asked if he remembered that conversation; he acknowledged it. We still laugh about it.
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Old December 13th, 2016, 11:51 PM   #10
larryoracing
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Smile Great Post!

I would like to say a few things about my broken king pin. First of all, the Grade 8 black bolts, were too long and bottomíd out in my synder plates, leaving a gap between the cup and cushions.

2) I had the wrong cups in the nuts. The correct cups are a little bigger in diameter to let the Ĺ nut index into the cup.

3) I also had misadjusted pivot pins

I donít use the synders anymore and my spins suffer. Have not got use to the new skates yet.

But I will say this, the new skates are easier on my knees. I think the truck action is less stressful on the joints.

I might go back to the synders but for now Iím sticking with my new skates. I just need to get some boots that fit right. I think I need to measure my feet and get the exact size needed for them, instead of guessing on the size and width.

Larry O
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Old December 14th, 2016, 10:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryoracing View Post
I would like to say a few things about my broken king pin. First of all, the Grade 8 black bolts, were too long and bottomíd out in my synder plates, leaving a gap between the cup and cushions.

2) I had the wrong cups in the nuts. The correct cups are a little bigger in diameter to let the Ĺ nut index into the cup.

3) I also had misadjusted pivot pins

I donít use the synders anymore and my spins suffer. Have not got use to the new skates yet.

But I will say this, the new skates are easier on my knees. I think the truck action is less stressful on the joints.

I might go back to the synders but for now Iím sticking with my new skates. I just need to get some boots that fit right. I think I need to measure my feet and get the exact size needed for them, instead of guessing on the size and width.

Larry O
u want to make sure all your adjustments are right, especially the pivot pin that will break or bend any king pin on any plate if out of adjustment. good luck with the new plates
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Old December 24th, 2016, 06:54 PM   #12
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If anyone is going to break a KP due to misadjusted pivot pins, it SHOULD be me. There's no way a truck, hanging loose on the KP, which has gotten as much as 2 full turns out of adjustment, can have its pivot pin "IN" adjustment. As mentioned, I simply don't worry about it with my Imperials. And I've been sk8ing on the same set of soft urethane cushions for over 25 years and they are just as soft as when I installed them. The urethane cushions last forever, which is why I recommend them to everybody who says they need to replace their cushions.
I also find that almost nobody lubricates their pivot pins. They are SO NEGLECTED, that one sk8r I know had a Snyder in which the pivot pin wore thru the steel pivot pin cup in the hanger and continued wearing thru the hanger itself and INTO THE PLATE ! Now, she was a big woman, about 200 pounds, but there is no excuse for this kind of NEGLECT.
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Old December 28th, 2016, 05:25 PM   #13
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I also broke a king pin on my Imperials. At that time I replaced all four. I was told by Snyder at that time they should never break. I know I am very hard on my skates. I also asked snyder about new imperial lites, they assured me those pins should never break. I am still breaking in the boots on the imperial lites so they have not gotten much skating time yet.

I would suggest you replace the cushions and adjust the pivots when you replace the king pins. As long as you have to break them down, take advantage of the time.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 08:23 PM   #14
larryoracing
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Smile Thanks for the Post!

DerekR I assume the Imperial Lite, does not have a toe stop. I even assume you could remove the cross bar and install a smaller nut that locks down the trucks, just to save weight?

You can order or the Lite might have titanium axels. I know the Synder “Royal” has machined down trucks to shave off more weight.

I have a pair of old synder deluxe skates, I think made in the 40’s or 50’s that have a add-on/removable toe stop and mounting system. Also I think these skates were the origin of the now so called “Lite” plate, because these Synder skates/plates have very light thin plates as compared the standard design of the 70’s and 8O’s.

If you are trying to build a light dance or figure competitive plate with the famous synder imperial truck action there is a lot you can do to get the weight down to the bare minimum and then just add a EDEA boot to save another 40% of weight off the skate setup.

Sincerely

Larry O
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