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Old June 9th, 2014, 05:47 AM   #1
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Default Plates and skate building for very small children/kids

Firstly, since this about both an indoor-use build and about plate sizing-charts I have no idea what section/sub-section this belongs in. MODS - please move this thread to the most appropriate section.

Second, finding plates for very small shoes/boots is proving a challenge. I'm asking for the forum's help in compiling the following information on "smallest plate" offerings from various manufacturers for shoes/boots smaller than Juvenile-10 since J10+ plates are ubiquitous these days.



I've even reached out to some of the manufacturers directly, but so far, all I've received in return are replies saying that the information is for dealers/shops only, or worse... just radio silence. I presently work with several durable goods manufacturers and have worked for other manufacturers and retailers in the past, so I get it - I understand why some specs and especially processes are considered trade secrets or privileged. But this is just wrong-headed. The plates are out there in the public domain to be weighed and measured, so why try to keep it secret? I know lots of the forum members here are shop techs and shop owners, so PLEASE HELP ME COMPLETE THIS CHART... please! I know I'm not the only person to have done a google search looking for specs and couldn't find them, and a lot of google searches lead to this forum soooo...

If you have any of these on your workbenches please post the measurements in this thread, or if you're worried about doing it publicly and incurring the 'wrath' of a manufacturer you buy from, just PM me the measurements instead, so I can complete this chart. I know it would be helpful to lots of other people besides myself.

Third, I'm in the middle of a soccer cleat build for indoor/rink use for my youngest. They wear a J7 shoe but do pixie skate lessons and family/matinee sessions in J8 brownies (always the smallest available at the rinks) and since they grow so fast, I decided to stick with J8's or J9's. The first order of business was finding the right shoe. We narrowed it down to these three:



They liked all of them, ranking them from left to right: 1st, 3rd and a very close 2nd, respectively. Everyone else in the family seemed to agree that the Vizari's were the best. They also happen to fit them the best. They also just so happen to look more like a low-top skate boot than either of the Diadoras. So I guess we have a clear winner!

More to follow.

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Old June 9th, 2014, 05:57 AM   #2
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Beginning cleat removal.



Cleats removed from one.



Finalizing wheel selection - Route 66's vs Chicago Mini's



Finalizing wheel selection - The colors don't translate well in these pictures, but the Route 66's were a much better color match. They were also slightly smaller, which in this application is a plus.

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Old June 9th, 2014, 06:05 AM   #3
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Tracing of insole with 2nd/3rd toe gap and heel marked.


Then marked plate position and drill hole positions.



Transferred to carbon fiber stiffening plate.



Soul stiffeners cut out from blank stock.




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Old June 9th, 2014, 06:20 AM   #4
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With carbon fiber plates glued and drilled, the mounting holes were reamed using a mounting bolt (and washer to protect the carbon fiber) attached to a drill to clean out the excess materials in the mounting holes.



Perhaps one of the biggest potential problems with the build. There was very little material to spare around the mounting holes at the heel. This means the plate cannot be moved any further forward or there would be so little material it would be dangerous to tighten the bolts for fear of cracking the plate. Ditto for when it comes time to snap off the excess bolt length.



Plate mounted.



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Old June 9th, 2014, 06:25 AM   #5
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With the trucks and wheels installed.





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Old June 10th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #6
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Hope your kids appreciate all your effort to give them lightweight & cool looking custom built skates.

Be sure the Shoe Goo Is fully dried before skating them. If you can smell the vapor it is not dry.

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Old June 10th, 2014, 07:56 AM   #7
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Look good, imo the carbon fibre is a bit of an overkill as its unlikely the skater will be heavy or strong enough to flex the boot enough.
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Old June 10th, 2014, 11:27 AM   #8
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Look good, imo the carbon fibre is a bit of an overkill as its unlikely the skater will be heavy or strong enough to flex the boot enough.
My thought exactly. That small foot means 30 lbs or less. No issue until about 90-110.
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Old June 10th, 2014, 09:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Hope your kids appreciate all your effort to give them lightweight & cool looking custom built skates.
<snip>
-Armadillo
Lol! Extremely doubtful.

They do think they look cool, but I don't think they have any appreciation or understanding of the weight savings over a shop built skate in their size, nor the time invested in the build. I don't care... as long as it might help foster a love of skating, I'm good!
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Old June 10th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
Look good, imo the carbon fibre is a bit of an overkill as its unlikely the skater will be heavy or strong enough to flex the boot enough.
My thought exactly. That small foot means 30 lbs or less. No issue until about 90-110.
You guys are likely correct. They are small to be sure. I did seriously consider doing a direct mount - heaven's know the carbon fiber was the most expensive and time consuming part of this build. In the end there were three reasons I elected for the carbon stiffener.


  1. The sole material. While many soccer cleats/soles are made of various and sundry forms of plastic, the cleats/soles on these made of a slightly plasticized rubber. The sole was actually quite soft, which given the age group these cleats are designed for, somewhat makes sense.
  2. The sole's dimensions at the heel. As you can see in both the image of the overlaid drawings and the bolts run through sole, there simply wasn't much room for a bolt/bolt head on the inside of the shoe. Without a stiffener I would have wanted to do a T-nut mount, and the standard mounting bolt heads just barely cleared the sides of the heel, so there's no chance a T-nut would have cleared, at least not without seriously grinding down the nut flange one side.
  3. Practice. I'm planning on getting my first skates soon, and they'll be shop-built from off the shelf components - since I want to continue skating sessions with the family and would like to learn jam skating, I figure I might as well get a half-way decent pair of skates. But I could see myself wanting to build a recreational speed skate and/or and outdoor skate somewhere down the line. And at that point I decide I'm not ready to part with competition level "Bont-money" for a non-competitive hobby (which seems likely), then I liked the idea of going into that build have done at least one before. I figure if I'm going to climb that particular learning curve, better to do it on a pair of skates that will be out-grown in a year or two and not one that should be kept for 5-10.

Have to go now, we're off to pixie class to give them a try!
.
.
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Old June 11th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #11
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Default The latest (24/06/2014) iteration of the micro kids skate

.

.
This isn't the final version, just a stop-gap until the correct toe stops and laces arrive. But in this configuration they weigh 28.75oz (<820 grams) per skate. Not bad.
.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 04:03 PM   #12
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Very cute custom skates! Happy Father's Day tomorrow to all the good Dad's like yourself out there!
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Old June 22nd, 2014, 06:41 PM   #13
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That'll put the finishing touch on those skates, nice work! I've built quite a few size 3ish skates since my Rinks oldeskool treasure trove consisted of either size 13 or 3 swag...

The smaller the skate, the more critical everything gets, your kids/grandkids will appreciate these skates when they outgrow these & try standard "Off The Shelf" crap...

Derrick......
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Old June 25th, 2014, 02:51 AM   #14
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I built these for my daughter. she started on these at 16 months old. size J8DC shoes worked great and I just milled down some worn out Radar Varsity Plus wheels.


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Old June 25th, 2014, 06:37 PM   #15
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Cool A new mistake (pic) and where is the Bont dude?

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I built these for my daughter. she started on these at 16 months old. size J8DC shoes worked great and I just milled down some worn out Radar Varsity Plus wheels.


Those are friggin' adorable! Which plate is that? It's obviously a SureGrip... but is it the Jr Pro or something else? Did you reverse the kingpins or is that the factory setup?

My update is that I made the mistake of going to one of my better local skateboard shops looking for softer and/or better color matching bu..., err, "cushions" (just can't get used to that term, I spent my entire young life on a skateboard, to me they'll always be "bushings"). If I had stopped to think about the physics of the thing for two seconds I would have realized that it was a bad idea. Think about the length of a skateboard truck axle. Now, due to that length, think about the leverage forces placed on the bushings, king-pin, etc. Looking for softer offerings in a skateboard shop... not gonna happen. I walked out with the softest things they had - some clear Deluxe Super Cush 88a's.



Beyond the 88a duro, this wasn't a great idea on a few other levels as well. It required the use of different sized washers/cups, the new ones being heavier, and it also required exhausting amounts of sanding to bevel the corners of the bushings to fit even the new larger cups correctly, but especially the teeny trucks.



If I had asked here first, or given it more thought and research, I suspect someone would have pointed me to Bont's purple (hello, perfect color match) super softs (78a duro!), or I would have found them on my own (as I've done since). Isn't the Bont guy on this forum? I've got more questions for him... what's his handle?

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Old June 25th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #16
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Question T-Nuts???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR SHELBY View Post
That'll put the finishing touch on those skates, nice work! I've built quite a few size 3ish skates since my Rinks oldeskool treasure trove consisted of either size 13 or 3 swag...

The smaller the skate, the more critical everything gets, your kids/grandkids will appreciate these skates when they outgrow these & try standard "Off The Shelf" crap...

Derrick......

I'd like to think that they'll notice but, they're so young, their headspace is so far removed from quality/lack-there-of right now. The older one will probably come to appreciate it in a few years.

You mentioned T-nuts. I've given that a lot of thought to those lately. What do people mean exactly when they say that? Is it like a t-nut for furniture feet?



If so, how would those fit in a tiny shoe? To say nothing of how you would prevent blistering on the feet from the protrusion into the insole. Or is that like a binding post (what some people colloquially refer to as a "chicago" screw)? And if so, wouldn't you need to use at least a medium strength thread locking compound to prevent back-outs? And those binding posts are usually a very low grade aluminum... would strength be a worry?

https://www.chicagoscrews.com/

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Old July 22nd, 2014, 11:04 PM   #17
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Talking Update on J8 skates, almost done!

For those that have been following the build, one of the few things left is putting the correct toe stop on, and by correct, I mean rubber and purple (the hard pink plastic thing just had to go). Unfortunately no one seems to make a three-divot purple rubber toe stop. But they do make a white one so, time to break out the dye.



The bath ended up being 2 cups of water (an additional third cup was added halfway through to compensate for boil-off), 20ml Rit Dye, 10ml white vinegar. Oven set to 400F



And about two hours later...



Only thing left to do now is to see if the Bont Infinity 'super-soft' Purple cushions can be modified to fit these trucks. Hope to have more pictures on the backside of that and the finally completed build!
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:58 PM   #18
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Nice job on those stoppers man.

Sure Grip Super cushings(BUSHINGS! yea, I know I'm a sk8boarder first too!)

The SG Supers come in a 72A Blues. They also have Conical BUSHINGS that you could use instead of the traditional barrels. this would further reduce the leverage needed to make the skates turn.

I like to add grease to my bushings and suspension. A little dab of Lithium grease on the BUSHINGS where they meet the truck and a dab on the pivot pin. For adding grease to the suspension there IS a way the BUSHINGS are supposed to face. The side with the ribs goes to the truck, and the side with the logo goes to the washers. The ribs help keep the grease in place(car knowledge FTW eh?)

Now with the potential conicals, I'd try sticking them in there fat side to the trucks- as this is where the ribs are. Some people on here do it differently. It would probably be a bit of experimentation for a kid to go through, unless they are interested in making a skate behave how they like it, they may get annoyed with the idea of trying things. Alot of times I just tweaked my daughters skate and watched her, and occasionally asked her questions about her skates, sometimes even if I had done nothing to them.



One more thing since your a tinkering kinda champ. - this is a side project away from the kiddo's suspensions....

http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/skatebearings.htm

This guy turned me onto the tool from MSC. It works like a charm, and I love it. It makes the world of spacers possible without owning a lathe or bothering your machinist buddy for simple tasks lol. Doing this lets the truck evenly distribute the load into the bearing- around here its known as "facing the truck". since quads load up largely on the axial plane instead of radially. This matters and I've been able to feel it. Kid's wont care but I shaved over 40 thousandthsoff one side of a truck before without ever cleaning the entire face off. Thats ALOT, WAY more clearance than a bearing has. Without the surface machined 90* to the axle the truck shoves on only part of the innter race and it kind of twists the bearings alignment.

I don't really have an easy way to get spacers for varying widths of bearing seats(that ledge the bearins rest against in your wheels).

Easiest way is to borrow what the flip axle guys do. They shim the bearing seat to a specific width. This way all their wheels fit the same. If you had a stock of spacers all the same size you could "shim" your bearing seats to all take a common spacer.

Even if your not going through the spacer ordeal, I'd recommend this tool from MSC to cut the hanger faces straight.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 03:16 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Nice job on those stoppers man.
Thanks, Man

Quote:
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Sure Grip Super cushings(BUSHINGS! yea, I know I'm a sk8boarder first too!)
Yeah, I know. Walking into the local rink shop, or the local skateboard shop I have the same problem both places.
- At the rink shop: "Bushings? WTH are bushings?"
- At the skateboard shop" "7mm bearings... that's some weird/obscure stuff there. What? 8mm bearings? You mean regular bearings?"

Ugghh, it's like the UK and the US, two cultures divided by a supposedly common language.

Just an FYI though, these are Supercush bushings - made by Deluxe, not SG. It is a bit confusing because SureGrip does make a similar sounding line called Super Cushions.

Quote:
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The SG Supers come in a 72A Blues.
I'm trying to get her into softer purple cushions, so at present the contenders are in fact SG's Super Cushions in 85a and Bont's Infinity Cushions in 78a. Since they are softer, I'm going to try to get the Bonts to work first.

Quote:
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They also have Conical BUSHINGS that you could use instead of the traditional barrels. this would further reduce the leverage needed to make the skates turn.
Do you mean conicals for the bottoms? The tops are already conical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I like to add grease to my bushings and suspension. A little dab of Lithium grease on the BUSHINGS where they meet the truck and a dab on the pivot pin. For adding grease to the suspension there IS a way the BUSHINGS are supposed to face. The side with the ribs goes to the truck, and the side with the logo goes to the washers. The ribs help keep the grease in place(car knowledge FTW eh?)
I didn't know that about the grease, nor about the ribs. That's great to know, thanks for the tips!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
One more thing since your a tinkering kinda champ. - this is a side project away from the kiddo's suspensions.... http://www.peterverdone.com/archive/skatebearings.htm This guy turned me onto the tool from MSC. It works like a charm, and I love it. It makes the world of spacers possible without owning a lathe or bothering your machinist buddy for simple tasks lol. Doing this lets the truck evenly distribute the load into the bearing- around here its known as "facing the truck". since quads load up largely on the axial plane instead of radially. This matters and I've been able to feel it. Kid's wont care but I shaved over 40 thousandthsoff one side of a truck before without ever cleaning the entire face off. Thats ALOT, WAY more clearance than a bearing has. Without the surface machined 90* to the axle the truck shoves on only part of the innter race and it kind of twists the bearings alignment.
That's a cool way to use a counter bore! Though I have to say, at some point it can get a bit "how many angles on can dance on the head of a pin", but then again, tightening tolerances do add up quickly the more places you can do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I don't really have an easy way to get spacers for varying widths of bearing seats(that ledge the bearins rest against in your wheels). Easiest way is to borrow what the flip axle guys do. They shim the bearing seat to a specific width. This way all their wheels fit the same. If you had a stock of spacers all the same size you could "shim" your bearing seats to all take a common spacer. Even if your not going through the spacer ordeal, I'd recommend this tool from MSC to cut the hanger faces straight.
Funny, I was under the impression that bearing spacers were a thing of the past now that seemingly all wheel hubs have built-in "spacers". It makes complete sense though, especially with flips where your outside-to-outside bearing measurement needs to take up the whole axle right up to the flip, and there's no way to reposition the flip like you can an axle nut.

---

I'm also really diggin' the idea posted in that article about using MMC shim stock http://www.mcmaster.com/#shim-stock/ to tighten the mating tolerances on 8mm axles and bearings. Not sure how to roll the shim stock into tight enough barrels though!
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Old July 24th, 2014, 04:44 AM   #20
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Yea conicals for the whole truck assembly. One on the top and bottom.

The grease thing is just somethig I seem to do with my skates and a few friends skates, but where the urethane cant really bind up around the truck those puppys always snap back to neutral no problem. No oddly tracking skates because you stood too hard too long on one side. And they dont squeak. i started doing this because of the obscene amount of aluminum the cushions.. er BUSHINGS! LOL were rubbing off the trucks. Since greasing, not one sight of aluminium coloring has been seen.


The guys site says you can roll it on some scissors. I woukd guess the best way to do such would be to get a long strip and start curling it first, much like you would a ribbon. Once theres significant curl, flatten and cut to length.

Everyone on quads these days seems to disagree on spacers. With the mass majority not wanting anything to do with them. I've done my own tests with spacers and find they help a good bit, however thats very limited to how properly aligned your axles hanger faces and nuts are. If they arent straigt, they are going to cock the bearing raceways, and create drag.

We use bearings designed for radial loads in our skates, a proper setup can actually allow both bearings to carry the axial load. Theres just some legwork to do first. Also it increases grip, when in certain situations as it greatly reduces wheel vibrations when the wheels begin to slide. This allows better response as the wheel hookups back up. Though the lack of noise... cant scare the timid.... just loosen those nuts

I tried my rink owners labeda stelletos with ceramics in them, and the way they woukd break free and hook back up was scary to my ankles at the time.


Also the only thing wheels have built in are the bearing seats. Correctly set up spacers strengthen axles as well, and help reenforce the axles "wiggle" tendency's. Theres 3 main spots on a quad axle that flexes, and with a machined hanger you can see it. Ill take a pic for ya sometime. My Arius hangers have not one shred of these markings tight axle fit, and cranked down nuts. I also glued the outer races in place on my RBT'S
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