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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old February 22nd, 2012, 12:18 AM   #21
pdinphx
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If memory serves, Ultrask8 was tinkering with, designing and manufacturing carbon race frames before most of us even considered carbon a viable material for frames.

Stirring the pot, indeed ...

Any chance you are thinking about getting back into the Carbon frame business?
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 12:29 AM   #22
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Check out this old skatelog thread ...

http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...highlight=mold
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 02:36 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gscace View Post
What you say is often posed as an argument against carbon. But it's a generalization that depends on the design. For example, good design for a part that is likely to see impacts means including some sort of sacrificial layer in the laminate that will prevent impacts from affecting the structural elements. I'm assuming that the EO frames include such. Also, part design issues often exist that preclude the optimum use of materials from a pure strength perspective. In the case of skate frames, frame mounting bolts, and wheel axle bosses introduce stress raisers into the design that are justifiably solved using a brute-force approach, particularly if a more elegant, lighter approach has significant downsides. Downsides I can think of include less impact resistance, significantly greater cost, less customer acceptance. I think that the EO frame is somewhat of a brute-force implementation, but it looks "substantial" enough, and that's important. Customer acceptance has a lot to do with success. A frame that looks like a birdcage made of pure uni-directional fibers might be strong enough and technically interesting, but it would for sure fail as a product if it cost twice as much as the EO frame, weighed only 20 grams less than the EO skate, and folks used to "the strength of metal" were afraid of it.
Well, the sacrificial layer would have to be extra resin, as it would be the lightest possible option. If it was a thick enough layer to take repeated abuse, the carbon frame would be as heavy as a metal plate, negating the advantage of using CF in the first place. A protective layer could be made of aluminum or titanium, but once again, the advantage of the CF is lost. If the weight savings are lost with the addition of thick resin or other material layers, then having a CF frame is just "keeping up with the Joneses"
The person using a CF frame is probably going to use their skates strictly for one purpose, racing. They would not be good for any recreational use. This user would probably have at least 2 pairs of frames so if one gets damaged, it can be sent in for repair while the backup is put into action.
I am in no way saying anything against CF, or more accurately, CFRP, Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastic. I work with it daily, I am certified in doing small as well as large area structural repairs of CF structures as well as non destructive testing and inspection of the stuff. CF pays my mortgage. I am just saying that it is not a replacement for metal in all cases.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 05:59 AM   #24
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Speaking of weight reduction, why can't wheel manufacturers build wheels that have less weight on the perimeter? I know that there has to be the right amount of rebound for the wheel to work and that it's a combination of the urethane and hub that is supposed to produce this magic value, but has anyone ever tried installing a pressurized bladder inside the urethane in order to produce a certain rebound independent of urethane hardness and hub flex?
Hyper made many years ago such a wheel with a pressurized inner. It failed.

Many manufacturers tried to make lightweight wheels by several means, like less urethane (Matter Marathon lite), thinner profile (Star Grip), saving on the hub (a Bont wheel produced in small quantities and then pulled out of the market, don't remember the name, Hyper with carbon hub...) combination of tinner, special hub and other material than urethane (PC Vane). All failed.

Nowadays, the banded wheels are heavier than its predecessors, new Matter G13 are heavier than the well known, widely used Juice and nevertheless perform very well, so is/was weight saving so important, I don't know.

Sometimes, ideas about optimal performances are wrong. I remember that when the 100mm wheels were introduced, everybody was trying to reduce the height and go as low as possible, then, after adapting the boots and way of skating for the big wheels, people discovered that very low can be slow and now we found a kind of trade off, not too high but also not too low.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #25
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Unhappy An update about my EO 4 x 110

Was 2-3 miles into a trail skate on Thanksgiving day and started to hear a slight creak every time I put my right foot down. It got worse over the next 1/2 mile or so, even after checking axles for looseness. Was going to remove a wheel and check mounting bolts when i noticed two full thickness vertical cracks in the outer frame side, between the 1st & 2nd wheels. They're about 1/4 to 1/2 inch long and probably grew a bit on the rather delicate & gentle return to the start point.

They hadn't had a huge amount of use with me. Maybe 2 years or so, and mostly indoors for training and a season of indoor racing.

Anyone know about carbon repair...?
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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #26
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i think eo might replace them if not then i would try jb weld

but two-three years of indoor skating is the standard time for a carbon boot to wear out
i would guess that it would proboly be the same for a carbon frame if not worse.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Was 2-3 miles into a trail skate on Thanksgiving day and started to hear a slight creak every time I put my right foot down. It got worse over the next 1/2 mile or so, even after checking axles for looseness. Was going to remove a wheel and check mounting bolts when i noticed two full thickness vertical cracks in the outer frame side, between the 1st & 2nd wheels. They're about 1/4 to 1/2 inch long and probably grew a bit on the rather delicate & gentle return to the start point.

They hadn't had a huge amount of use with me. Maybe 2 years or so, and mostly indoors for training and a season of indoor racing.

Anyone know about carbon repair...?
Supposedly EO has good customer service. Contact them asap.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 08:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinstaafl View Post
Was 2-3 miles into a trail skate on Thanksgiving day and started to hear a slight creak every time I put my right foot down. It got worse over the next 1/2 mile or so, even after checking axles for looseness. Was going to remove a wheel and check mounting bolts when i noticed two full thickness vertical cracks in the outer frame side, between the 1st & 2nd wheels. They're about 1/4 to 1/2 inch long and probably grew a bit on the rather delicate & gentle return to the start point.

They hadn't had a huge amount of use with me. Maybe 2 years or so, and mostly indoors for training and a season of indoor racing.

Anyone know about carbon repair...?
Carbon being used like this doesn't get repaired, it gets replaced.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #29
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I emailed EO last night and had a reply by this morning! That's fast, so kudos to them. EO have a crash replacement policy (not that I was in a crash) that will replace a broken frame for $130 + shipping. I'll probably go down this route. Before I do, I'm going to see if I can try a few other frames. It would be nice to have a comparison at my current level of skill.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #30
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Default CF frames

Here's my 2 centavos:

1. With $130 crash replacement cost from EO, now you know the rock bottom manufacturers wholesale cost (of that configuration of frame - EO is CF layer over a foam type material)

2. A well designed CF frame's benefits are NOT only light weight - the following (from my personal experience) are also benefits:
a. Frame won't bend
b. Absorbs "surface chatter" , meaning more rider comfort = improved performance, especially over varied surfaces.
c. Well designed CF frames can be "tuned", to give different performance on different parts of the push or glide phase. For example - TUSA CF frames gen 3 were designed to provide a stiffer "nose", meaning stiffer on the final release point of the push. This was requested by the skaters of Lavellois, winners (on CF frames) of Lemans 24 hrs, NYC 100km, etc.


Ultra

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Old November 27th, 2012, 11:49 AM   #31
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Now that would be an interesting study: What stiffness & flexibility along a frame is optimum for different types of skating eg indoor racing, track, road, across different parts of the frame and by different skater strength & size.
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Old November 27th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #32
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I'm happy with my EO M2 frames, I only have about 100 miles on them though. I am not happy with my boots though still working to get them right.
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Old December 1st, 2012, 07:19 PM   #33
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A speed team member has a set of Canariam aluminium 4x110s she's selling for $75. She prefers to stick with 100s. I tried them at practice a couple of nights ago. Different to my EOs. My left foot felt a bit less stable with more tendency to wobble over the wheel centerline. Probably just haven't got the frame position quite right.

The Canariams felt better for my starts though. More 'solid' as I ran. Perhaps there was some flex in the EOs that I'd never realised?

Quite a difference in weight: EO 140 & 148 g, Canariam 230g or so (forgot the exact amount but it was about 80-90 g more). Didn't really notice it at indoor practice. Be interesting if I'll notice it on a 10 lap race or when outdoors.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:31 PM   #34
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I've been on EO H2 (3x110, 100) for two seasons now. I skate only outdoors - city street skating, FNS, training on bike path, A2a type stuff. Probably 1500 miles total. I weigh 200 lb.

I absolutely love the EO frames. I can't imagine any durability problems like some have previously posted. Cracking under repeated loading isn't a characteristic of carbon / epoxy. I've put them through the ringer and haven't seen and don't expect to ever have any problem that way. That is one of the reasons I went away from aluminum, they break. Most recently I had two sets of Tru-Rev frames break under the same same usage. One in one season, and the second set in less than 300 miles. Citing the Tru-Rev frames as an example might not be fair though, as Tru-Rev seems to be more about cosmetic finish and artistic design than any effort toward mechanical engineering. But whether T-R or others, there has been a history of aluminum frames breaking under me.

While the EO frames are in my opinion durable, their weak point is that they didn't handle abrasion well when I slid down the road in a crash. They were very worn, as was the carbon boot. That is what I would expect of carbon (vs. aluminum), though my informal test of this was confounded by two things - a) I was using 18mm wheels, which allow the frame to be closer to(into) the road when you are horizontal, and b) not only was the carbon of the frame abraded, but the aluminum axle inserts were deeply abraded - this may point to the crash event being a particularly abrasive one which would have deeply scuffed an aluminum frame.?.

E.O. has been very good to deal with, though there have been unexpected problems getting their frames through customs or the mail unscathed (certainly not EO's fault).

As far as weight, they are unbeatable. Its jaw dropping the first time that you pick them up. Try not to hit yourself in the face with them as you lift them the first time if your brain is calibrated for lifting aluminum frames. There is no need for a scale.

By far the greatest thing I have experienced with the EO frame has been the reduction in suffering when crossing sections of gatorback, though my observations here are confounded by also using thin PC-Vane wheels (yes, probably the last ones on earth) when I'm around gatorback.

They are expensive. You get what you pay for in this case. If for whatever reason I find myself needing a frame my next ones will be EO.

Mark
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Old December 14th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #35
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Quote:
Most recently I had two sets of Tru-Rev frames break under the same same usage. One in one season, and the second set in less than 300 miles. Citing the Tru-Rev frames as an example might not be fair though, as Tru-Rev seems to be more about cosmetic finish and artistic design than any effort toward mechanical engineering. But whether T-R or others, there has been a history of aluminum frames breaking under me.
You are correct with your assessment of TruRev frames. They are the worst frames I have ever skated on. They always felt like there were going to break and I only weigh 140 lbs!!
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Old January 8th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #36
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For the last few months I have been skating on an EO M2 frame, all for indoor practices. Last night I skated on a Flyke frame, which is aluminum and the skating experience was completely different. Needless to say, I much prefer the "feel" of the Flyke frame for indoors at least. It's hard to quantify the differences, but the aluminum frame just felt better even with the extra weight. In a few months when the weather improves and I can skate outdoors I will give the EO frame another try for outdoor skating.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 03:51 AM   #37
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I want to add an update to my post #34 above. Its 2015, I've been on E.O since (based on my post above) 2009, 6 years. Other than the replacement due to the 2011 crash I've had nothing but happiness. I've done 5? full A2As on EO frames, all of the prep for it, and a lot of bike chasing around the streets of Detroit which aren't always the smoothest. Brick paving, low stairs, jumping up and down, winter, rain sometimes. Loving my EO Hi/Lo. Yo! Tru-Rev no.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 12:37 PM   #38
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Bringing this thread back to life, because I have joined the carbon crew. On a suggestion by one of my indoor trainers, I bought a longer frame. I was previously using a Flyke 3x125 12.8" frame. I have now moved to an EO 13.2" frame and the difference is huge.

To my surprise, the carbon frames are actually stiffer than the aluminum frames and allow me to put down more power with each push. The added length also gives me more heel time with each stride.

Unfortunately, it's still winter here in the northeast US, so I won't be able to tell yet if they help my outdoor skating at all. I'm hoping to do the entire Eastern Seaboard Series this coming spring and summer and possibly the Montreal 24 hour.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #39
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I tried the 12.8, but didn't like it. The frame was mounted slightly heel dominate due to my 165 mount boot. Felt fine during pace laps, but couldn't put down any power during sprints. I would love to try the longer frame but i'm not dropping 400 for something I may not like. OBTW, 6ft, 175lbs. I'm still on my gold simmons frame which is magical indoors, but outdoors just isn't long enough.
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Old January 12th, 2017, 02:22 PM   #40
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I had my 12.8" Flyke mounted toe-dominant to get myself back on my heels indoors. I was leaning too far forward when I had the frame center-mounted. The slots in the frame and 3 rows of mounting holes in the boot's block allows some pretty flexible configurations.

The 13.2" is now center-mounted and I get a ton of heel push and feel like I'm more centered and stable.
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