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Old December 20th, 2016, 05:47 PM   #1
fierocious1
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Default Durometers are one thing but

I may put together another machine that would measure total squish. Measuring the wheel unloaded vs loaded. Measured from the floor plate to the underside of the truck.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 06:23 PM   #2
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So do tell us more. Maybe Paint a detailed sketch, change from a bit map to a JPEG and post it. That would inspire conversation. How would you gather and process the information and what would it conclude.

I really didn't get the durameter connection? It's just another tool in the tool box. You can tighten bolts without a torque wrench, but they provide useful information.

It could be a very interesting research idea.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 07:42 PM   #3
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Default Measuring deformation.

It is one of the characteristics of urethanes in general and one of the key players in how cushions work.

I think measuring reliance (rebound) would be of more benefit. It is measured using a resiliometer. Or perhaps a combination of the 2??
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Old December 20th, 2016, 07:46 PM   #4
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In motor sports we test with a shock dyno. Then we can assess the dynamic behavior. We essentially create a movement program for a given time. We look at force vs. displacement and displacement vs. time.

Then we can compare different setups to each other.

(I think dynamic analysis is less important for skate application)

Even in a more static analysis the data should be plotted in a force vs. movement graph. and compared to different set-ups.

I just traded my shock dyno, otherwise I would volunteer it's use. Sorry but I haven't used it in years.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 10:45 PM   #5
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I think I'm understanding a little better. Would these tests also include loading in regard to turning angles and toe Vs heel weight bias?
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Old December 20th, 2016, 10:51 PM   #6
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We all know that generally as the duro goes down that the footprint lengthens. But comparing different hubbed, smaller, narrower and with varying duro wheels a person could look at the distance between the bottom of a truck or truck fixture to a contact surface. This dimension would vary and be measurable in real world conditions instead of just measuring duro of the urethane.

This also bring to mind another test fixture to analyze grip......
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Old December 21st, 2016, 12:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Behaved View Post
I think I'm understanding a little better. Would these tests also include loading in regard to turning angles and toe Vs heel weight bias?
I have the tool for analyzing turn angles now. Built it a few years ago but assembled it a couple of months ago after digging it out of equipment in storage. Bias toe to heal can be changed or tested with plates that have adjustable truck positions. There is a plate out there now that does that, can't remember the name of them, possibly Bont? The trucks can be loosened up and moved forward and backwards on the plate. Then you get a plate that measures the length you like and assemble your skates(expensive way to get it all together but possibly worth it in the long run).
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Old December 21st, 2016, 02:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
I may put together another machine that would measure total squish. Measuring the wheel unloaded vs loaded. Measured from the floor plate to the underside of the truck.
Kind of like this?





.
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Old December 21st, 2016, 08:59 AM   #9
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Ding! I get it! I am awestruck, that's a fantastic fixture. I'll shut up now and learn, but thanks.
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Old December 21st, 2016, 11:43 AM   #10
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Kind of like this?





.
Yep something like that. Who does this belong to?
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Old December 21st, 2016, 01:39 PM   #11
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Default Allow me to speculate.

Mr. Wired is quite the scientific type. (right decent sk8r too) I will guess it is his.


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Old December 21st, 2016, 05:43 PM   #12
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I drew a couple of versions up so far. I think I'll try to put together one that would have an attachment to a large arbor press. Put a digital scale on the base of the press. The dial indicator installed on the fixture with the wheel. The gauge of pressure read by the digital scale, while the total squish read beside the wheel as more force is added. Sort of an inverted U shape with the wheel inside the U with the dial indicator mounted to the side of the U. Simple and effective.
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Old December 21st, 2016, 05:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Mr. Wired is quite the scientific type. (right decent sk8r too) I will guess it is his.


Very nice work! Intricate too. Nice woodworking abilities. As I see it, it follows the function as it appears that it should. Squish meter and hub deflection indicators. I'm finding that with all this extra time, I'm getting to do a little more all the time, so maybe I'll get around to my version in a couple of months.

Last edited by fierocious1; December 21st, 2016 at 09:23 PM.
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Old December 31st, 2016, 04:27 AM   #14
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That's some high-precision cheese press ya got there.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 12:08 PM   #15
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Default That is one impressive effort wired

i think the way wheel and cushion testing is heading ,soon we will be able to get exactly the right wheel and plate set up for the skaters weight and floor before actually skating on the skates.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 01:14 PM   #16
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Default I borrowed some Scotts

A while back. They had too much pigment in them. They were supposed to softer but turned out much harder than projected.. They rolled like mad but would not stick except on unused floor(back of the rink in the turns next to the wall). They would slide forever. Using this as an example as SCOTTS are the absolute #1 wheel in the Quad Skate World! Any pigment added to the mixture affects the grip. I ran another set borrowed from the same guy, they gripped and rolled awesomely! So it is just what happened when the customer ordered his specifics, then got what he ordered. I feel that wheels that are dyed get pigment but it is more like "stained" or color on instead of being part of the mixture. I could never tell a difference in grip once my wheels were stained compared to the same wheels that were never stained. JMO. Also wheels from different companies have different recipes so grip and roll is not just about how hard they are. Lots of variables to observe.
1. Wheel sidewall thickness
2. Wheel width
3. Wheel diameter
4. Hardness.
5. Type of or chemical recipe of urethane.
6. Treaded or not.
7. Contact (footprint) width.
8. Hub type, no hub, plastic hub or metal hub.
9. Hub cap type(Atoms).
10. Pigment or no pigment(nats...natural color)

I think this covers just about everything.. but there may be more that I haven't touched on.
Basically, in how a wheel performs is not restricted to just hardness. Hardness plays a big role but it is not all there is to it.
IMO that these properties being combined into a wheel produce footprint size(squish), roll characteristics, hub deformation and grip. All the things we want in a wheel. One wheel won't do it all. So multiple wheel sets are needed for different floors and uses. A derby skater will want predictable slide and slip. Speed skaters want awesome roll with minimal slip. Sessions skaters(turning and slicing) mostly would want awesome grip with no slip. Dance, figure and others will want something different or a combination of things above. Some want to just Slide.........>>>>....

Last edited by fierocious1; January 1st, 2017 at 02:34 PM.
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Old January 1st, 2017, 05:03 PM   #17
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Default Interesting list....

I'm gonna play w/ your list a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
Also wheels from different companies have different recipes so grip and roll is not just about how hard they are. Lots of variables to observe.

1. Type of or chemical recipe of urethane.

This is the end all and be all of sk8 wheel engineering. It is essentially what makes comparing wheels by durometer a fools errand.

2. Hardness

Comparing advertised durometer between wheel brands may or may not tell you anything. Comparing between the same brands by actual measurement can be instructive. Don't try to get any meaningful info doing it by hand though. ASTM D2240 explains the right way to do it, but the gear is not cheap, unless you score on eBay or where ever. BTW there is no way to actually measure the finished poured wheel durometer according to the standard but if you use the same method you will find a good basis for comparison. DO NOT try to measure on the grooves. You will get a low and inconsistent reading. Readings must be repeatable or you will still be on that fools errand.

3. Wheel sidewall thickness

This is because urethane changes shape under load. The thicker the tire, the more urethane there is to flex. Flexing is also known as distortion. (Remember urethane does NOT compress)

4. Wheel diameter

All else being equal, the bigger the wheel, the easier it rolls once it is rolling. Larger wheels are also harder to start up. Inertia is the player here. Note that all else being equal?? Typically bigger diameter wheels have more tire thickness due to manufacturing constraints.

5. Wheel width / Contact (footprint) width.

Wider tires have more urethane on the floor so these two seem to be same to me??

6. Treaded or not.

Slicks always grip better than grooved wheels on a smooth clean surface. There in lies the rub. Grooves can slow ya down because they flex more than a slick surface. Where grooves come in handy is when the floor is dusty. More grip. Ever see any indoor inline race wheels with grooves?? I have not.

7. Hub type, no hub, plastic hub or metal hub.

Not all hubs of the the same classification are comparable. I have it on good account the SG 1 piece plastic hubs come in 2 flavors, one made of much better material than the other. Neither are metal hubs.

8. Hub cap type (Atoms).

I don't waste my time there. The OG hub cap evolved from the ROCK R-Tec through Matter, Answer, and finally Atom. It took Atom a while to make the issue go away... What 8 to 10 years?? I don't remember exactly. BTW Neil Pipers AEND was pouring all of those.

9. Pigment or no pigment (nats...natural color)

The book agrees. Wheel color built into the urethane is an "impurity".

OH, this is why I moved your intro to the end. Although this falls into YMMV I have some questions / comments which I will insert as I go.


A while back. They had too much pigment in them. They were supposed to softer but turned out much harder than projected.. They rolled like mad but would not stick except on unused floor(back of the rink in the turns next to the wall).

I have some not quite VFH (Scott says 99) prototype Wickeds. Purple. Grip about the same as my Natural VFH?? Almost all my sk8ing is done on a clean wood floor that has not been coated in..... (IKD... forever??) No grip issues, and this is not just me. Here is where the suspension setting plays into the game.

They would slide forever. Using this as an example as SCOTTS are the absolute #1 wheel in the Quad Skate World!

Won't argue that. And I am amazed @ how many folks are afraid of the price. Yeah burn through a half dozen sets of Bones Turbos before the Scott's start to wear in.

Any pigment added to the mixture affects the grip. I ran another set borrowed from the same guy, they gripped and rolled awesomely!

Same sk8s, same action adjustment, same floor, same weather in the rink?? If you did the comparison any other time than one right after the other, way too many variables can mess up the perceived results.

So it is just what happened when the customer ordered his specifics, then got what he ordered. I feel that wheels that are dyed get pigment but it is more like "stained" or color on instead of being part of the mixture. I could never tell a difference in grip once my wheels were stained compared to the same wheels that were never stained. JMO.

I have never dyed a set of wheels to compare one or the other. I have a couple of sets I sk8ed up and they seem to perform ~ the same as their undyed brothers / sisters. Basically my results don't match up with yours. I have been rolling Scotts Enforcers since before the beginning. I still own some of the original tires and wheels. Don't sk8 'em they are scary looking. He has come a long way baby!!


I think this covers just about everything.. but there may be more that I haven't touched on.

I'd say you did a darn fine job spelling it out!! I would add one more thing. The weight of the rolling assembly, wheels and bearings. The more weight you have @ the end of the pendulum, the more work you need to put into making it move.

Basically, in how a wheel performs is not restricted to just hardness. Hardness plays a big role but it is not all there is to it.

When all of the factors are figured in durometer can be helpful or lead one off into the weeds.. Understanding that the sk8ing space, can override every other aspect is really important to making good decisions. The guy that got me into this years ago hated Cannibals. Why?? He got onto a floor that did not agree with the green ones but he blamed it all on the wheels. The wheels were fine, I used them on a lot of floors. He didn't like the OG Green Shamans either. YMMV


IMO that these properties being combined into a wheel produce footprint size(squish), roll characteristics, hub deformation and grip. All the things we want in a wheel.

Just what do we want in a wheel?? Grip when ya need them to, break away gently when ya want them to, and roll like mad all the time. I got several wheels that are darn close to meeting all of those.

One wheel won't do it all. So multiple wheel sets are needed for different floors and uses.

Still thinking inlines?? There is no suspension adjustment to help with the traction. (one of the reasons I am not a big Arius fan.) I sk8 with a fellow that has raced quads a long time. Yellow Lips everywhere according to him. Adjust the action on his Pro Lines 1/2 turn max according to him. My results playing that game match up. have not switched wheels in years. Just tweek the action.


A derby skater will want predictable slide and slip. Speed skaters want awesome roll with minimal slip. Sessions skaters(turning and slicing) mostly would want awesome grip with no slip.

ODD. All I do is session sk8. I want wheels that roll like stink, grip like mad but break away predictably.. As in all of the above.

Dance, figure and others will want something different or a combination of things above. Some want to just Slide.........>>>>....
Basically, I think the point being made here is don't get locked up in the "What duro are these wheels??" mode. Way more to consider..especially understanding how your sk8ing space behaves over time may be more important than anything else.
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Old January 2nd, 2017, 01:51 AM   #18
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I'm gonna play w/ your list a bit.



Basically, I think the point being made here is don't get locked up in the "What duro are these wheels??" mode. Way more to consider..especially understanding how your sk8ing space behaves over time may be more important than anything else.
The test on the Scotts were several weekends, several wheels changes per session back to back. One set worked, one set rolled better but no matter what I did, would not grip except in very little used floor areas. I don't know anything about your area skating floors, but I skate several different floors and have to use different wheels at different rinks. It's a must for me and I have probably one of the loosest suspension around here that I know of. Today at Champions was a surprise as they just recoated the floor, talk about traction, forget slides, wasn't going to happen. If I take the Green Shamans to Lufkin, they will break away unpredictably and that unpredictability is consistent no matter what time of the year. When I used to skate a lot more floors I usually carried 3 sets of wheels but most of the time only used 2 of the sets. The Tire and Faster Grips. Now I'm on Green Shamans and really like them.

A question, Shamans has color/hardness chart that has basically been reversed? Greens used to mean harder? I skated some reds a while back and hated them because they would not grip and were too soft.

BTW, Shamans tread last pretty good for me, I like it. The Shamans did not feel the same as the old Tires. It took me a while to like these but they have grown on me. Today they were wasted on this floor, I could have ran some very hard wheels here and not looked back. Whites or maybe Wide Phantoms. I think Phantoms are what I'm getting next. They look awesome and Scott's wheels won't dissapoint, but I want WHITE!!!!! No color! I want everything performance wise I can get from a wheel set.
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Old January 3rd, 2017, 08:52 AM   #19
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I think Phantoms are what I'm getting next. They look awesome and Scott's wheels won't dissapoint, but I want WHITE!!!!! No color! I want everything performance wise I can get from a wheel set.
Thats my goal as well.
Id like to get 3 hardnesses in narrow and wide versions, all without any pigmented, color code the hubs to tell them apart.

probably go for 90, 95 and VFH(or as hard as he would dare pour). 6 sets of phantoms :P

But first I got axle issues to attend to on that damn Arius. gotta wait it out
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Old January 19th, 2017, 02:49 AM   #20
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Thats my goal as well.
Id like to get 3 hardnesses in narrow and wide versions, all without any pigmented, color code the hubs to tell them apart.

probably go for 90, 95 and VFH(or as hard as he would dare pour). 6 sets of phantoms :P

But first I got axle issues to attend to on that damn Arius. gotta wait it out
Couldn't do the Phantoms. Too many projects right now. Ordered some White Shamans....
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