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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old July 23rd, 2017, 01:01 AM   #101
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I could be wrong, but it appeared that Cheeks has some trouble with the sprints on the 125's. Looked like he could do 2 or so fast laps and then he was coasting 1/2 way or more through the corner. This could just be the skater, but I have seen other 125 skaters do this as well. Seems like the 125's overheat doing sub 9 second laps.

Or could it be the floor is not wide enough if you can get them up to speed? Cheek was going wall to wall and looked like he could have used some more room.

World team skaters can only use 125s for the marathon. So, there's no reason to use them all the time. We won't know unless FIRS changes the rule.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 03:20 AM   #102
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[QUOTE=kufman;726728]I could be wrong, but it appeared that Cheeks has some trouble with the sprints on the 125's. Looked like he could do 2 or so fast laps and then he was coasting 1/2 way or more through the corner. This could just be the skater, but I have seen other 125 skaters do this as well. Seems like the 125's overheat doing sub 9

He was on all yellow original profile wheel and does take giant steps. If we look at Sabien Tinsons 500m video, he too had to roll going into the corners at hi speeds. Most of the top skaters do roll into the corners and accelerate coming out, crossing all the way up the straightaways.

ICheeks is like 6'5 and probably around the 200lb mark, I can see any wheel heating up under such extreme conditions. We'll see what's next for indoor 125s. Btw, The few skaters on Atom 125s said they liked them.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 02:16 PM   #103
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[QUOTE=reely?;726732]
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Originally Posted by kufman View Post
I could be wrong, but it appeared that Cheeks has some trouble with the sprints on the 125's. Looked like he could do 2 or so fast laps and then he was coasting 1/2 way or more through the corner. This could just be the skater, but I have seen other 125 skaters do this as well. Seems like the 125's overheat doing sub 9

He was on all yellow original profile wheel and does take giant steps. If we look at Sabien Tinsons 500m video, he too had to roll going into the corners at hi speeds. Most of the top skaters do roll into the corners and accelerate coming out, crossing all the way up the straightaways.

ICheeks is like 6'5 and probably around the 200lb mark, I can see any wheel heating up under such extreme conditions. We'll see what's next for indoor 125s. Btw, The few skaters on Atom 125s said they liked them.
Also, lets not forget that the "regular" master's were running low 9's high 8's on 125's. Nikki Lee dominated masters on 110 but even he said he's probably going to change here soon. I hit 9.2 during the 4man and I'm not really an indoor skater.

As far as Cheeks. He hit 8.3s during the 30 lap final. He ran about 3-4 laps at that speed.

There were tons of skaters on 125's again this year. Most in the older divisions and a lot on the younger. I still think the matters are good, but the hub still doesn't have any life.

I like the new TLTF BMW hub and hope to see it soon for the track and indoor.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 03:26 PM   #104
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[QUOTE=spdkls;726733]
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Also, lets not forget that the "regular" master's were running low 9's high 8's on 125's. Nikki Lee dominated masters on 110 but even he said he's probably going to change here soon. I hit 9.2 during the 4man and I'm not really an indoor skater.

As far as Cheeks. He hit 8.3s during the 30 lap final. He ran about 3-4 laps at that speed.

There were tons of skaters on 125's again this year. Most in the older divisions and a lot on the younger. I still think the matters are good, but the hub still doesn't have any life.

I like the new TLTF BMW hub and hope to see it soon for the track and indoor.
Yes Jesse, it's clear as mud that 125s are catching on for many at the sharp end of our sport. Several of the elite coaches that were anti last season are seeing the light lmol.

What type of life are we talking about? From we need stiff and rigid frames and hubs to we need flex/life? Carbon frames have done this/added life for me, no doubt. Both Tltfs hubs are imo a step in the right direction, but they lose credibility when there own skaters won't even try 125s. Those of us that have been on them for a while know you cannot expect skate on 3xs just like 4x.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 04:31 PM   #105
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Yes Jesse, it's clear as mud that 125s are catching on for many at the sharp end of our sport. Several of the elite coaches that were anti last season are seeing the light lmol.

What type of life are we talking about? From we need stiff and rigid frames and hubs to we need flex/life? Carbon frames have done this/added life for me, no doubt. Both Tltfs hubs are imo a step in the right direction, but they lose credibility when there own skaters won't even try 125s. Those of us that have been on them for a while know you cannot expect skate on 3xs just like 4x.
We need to find the best mix of stiff/flex. I was on the gold simmons, but as good as it is, it's just too stiff(and i'm not strong enough) to get any pop. The blue is much better and the length isn't a factor with its flex. I think the yellows are too stiff and don't rebound very well(or they rebound too quickly and us older folks don't have the foot speed to match). The greens are better but they are too slow run by themselves. The reason Cheeks and Cameron James are still on the thin profiles is that they roll better and they flex a little more.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 06:36 PM   #106
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A little off topic, but I think there were more carbon frames also.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 08:03 PM   #107
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A little off topic, but I think there were more carbon frames also.
A bunch more.
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Old July 26th, 2017, 07:29 PM   #108
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anybody see the TLTF halo125 in Chicago?
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Old July 26th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #109
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Not to get off topic, but just to note, the winning wheel size at Chicago was 4x110. Last year, the second place finisher was on 4x110 (finishing ahead of 3x125). Now, granted, the Chicago winner probably would have won on 3x125...and maybe could have won on 4x100. All I'm trying to say is that 4x110s are still relevant. From my own experience, I think 125s are faster in the right conditions. After talking to a good friend, he says he will never go back to 110s. However, he's had some higher finishes in the last couple years on 110s. So, I don't know. Seeing some pictures on Facebook of the World Cup races, it seems that almost every top skater is on 125s. So, that has to say a lot. But, like I said, domestically, I'm still seeing skaters do almost equally as well on 110s. Just an observation. Not suggesting 125s are slower, but just pointing out that 110s are still able to hold their own...

As a side note, although I haven't raced much in the last couple of years, I've noticed some skaters who have switched to 125s have less than their typical performance at some races. I could actually name 3 or 4. I had my worst race ever three years ago at Chicago (in the 10K) when I tried 125s. So, I don't know if these changes (in performances) are due to wheel size or not, just saying. I've also seen some guys get stronger with 125s. It's hard to say what the changes in performance are a result of (maybe just better or worse training), but I have seen some pretty big swings from a few skaters that have made the change.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 01:28 PM   #110
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Not to get off topic, but just to note, the winning wheel size at Chicago was 4x110. Last year, the second place finisher was on 4x110 (finishing ahead of 3x125). Now, granted, the Chicago winner probably would have won on 3x125...and maybe could have won on 4x100. All I'm trying to say is that 4x110s are still relevant. From my own experience, I think 125s are faster in the right conditions. After talking to a good friend, he says he will never go back to 110s. However, he's had some higher finishes in the last couple years on 110s. So, I don't know. Seeing some pictures on Facebook of the World Cup races, it seems that almost every top skater is on 125s. So, that has to say a lot. But, like I said, domestically, I'm still seeing skaters do almost equally as well on 110s. Just an observation. Not suggesting 125s are slower, but just pointing out that 110s are still able to hold their own...

My only response to this is...at Euro's 2 weeks ago when it was time for the marathon. All and I mean all of the top guys/gals put on 125's. 110's are still fast, but 125's are where its at for the future.

Flanders GP just released that 125's are a go for all road events.

https://www.facebook.com/flandersgra...type=3&theater
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Old July 27th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #111
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Speaking of 125's. Trurev is in the 125 game as well.

http://www.trurev.com/new-2017-trure...5mm-wheel-1pc/

http://www.trurev.com/trurev-3-125mm-13-1-carbon-fiber/
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Old July 27th, 2017, 02:07 PM   #112
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My only response to this is...at Euro's 2 weeks ago when it was time for the marathon. All and I mean all of the top guys/gals put on 125's. 110's are still fast, but 125's are where its at for the future.

Flanders GP just released that 125's are a go for all road events.

https://www.facebook.com/flandersgra...type=3&theater
I can't say that I disagree. I would just be interested to see some real comparisons between the two setups. For instance, I would love to see Bart Swings skate a 10K on 110s and then compare it to his time on 125s. And, have a couple different guys do this test - and video it. I think a lot of people switch just because everyone else is switching. I would just be curious to know what type of "speed advantages" the 125s equate to. It might be a very insignificant or it might be huge. I have no idea. When I did some testing a couple years ago, I broke all of my PRs on 125s. I instantly thought they were faster. But, for whatever reason, my experience in a race or two wasn't as amazing. And, like I said, I've seen some skaters actually seem to do worse on 125s - I can't say for certain that it's the bigger setup, but it's just the one noticeable change that they've made. Anyway, I agree that 125 is the future. I just wish we had some real comparative data versus just everyone switching just because Powerslide said it's the new best thing. Not to blame it on Powerslide, but they were the ones who pushed it out of the gates...
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Old July 27th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #113
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I have actually been going back & forth this year between 3x125 and 4x110 outdoors. I have to say that my avg speeds have been similar. On a comparison of good days, I am probably .2-.3mph faster on the 125 setup, which over marathon distance would be a pretty sizable gap.

However, the majority of my outdoor training is solo and not pack skating, which makes a huge difference.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 02:41 PM   #114
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anybody see the TLTF halo125 in Chicago?
I had them in my bag, but the course was too rough for the xxfirms.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 06:08 PM   #115
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Not to get off topic, but just to note, the winning wheel size at Chicago was 4x110. Last year, the second place finisher was on 4x110 (finishing ahead of 3x125). Now, granted, the Chicago winner probably would have won on 3x125...and maybe could have won on 4x100. All I'm trying to say is that 4x110s are still relevant.
Justin had just gotten finished with Indoor Nationals, where he was on 4x110. He said before the race that he would rather be on 125s, but didn't feel like swapping frames right before the race. Like you said, he probably would have won with whatever wheels he wanted. I don't think I've ever beat him. In Chicago I believe I had an advantage over him because I was on 125, but he was just too strong. I feel like I blew a good opportunity, but the way the race played out fell right into strengths, regardless of his wheel choice.

I think that some people get more of an advantage from the 3x125 than others. To me it seems like bigger skaters have benefited more. For example, Steve M has been absolutely flying on 125s. I'm sure he's probably training more than he was back on 110s too, but 125s seem to work very well for him. Francisco Ramirez has been a bit critical of 125s, and perhaps it's because he's a lighter skater. I'm not sure. Then again, Herb Gayle isn't a little guy, and I think he may have gone back to 110s too.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 08:37 PM   #116
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Justin had just gotten finished with Indoor Nationals, where he was on 4x110. He said before the race that he would rather be on 125s, but didn't feel like swapping frames right before the race. Like you said, he probably would have won with whatever wheels he wanted. I don't think I've ever beat him. In Chicago I believe I had an advantage over him because I was on 125, but he was just too strong. I feel like I blew a good opportunity, but the way the race played out fell right into strengths, regardless of his wheel choice.

I think that some people get more of an advantage from the 3x125 than others. To me it seems like bigger skaters have benefited more. For example, Steve M has been absolutely flying on 125s. I'm sure he's probably training more than he was back on 110s too, but 125s seem to work very well for him. Francisco Ramirez has been a bit critical of 125s, and perhaps it's because he's a lighter skater. I'm not sure. Then again, Herb Gayle isn't a little guy, and I think he may have gone back to 110s too.
Yeah, that's my observations and thoughts too. Another person that stands out is KD (I'll refrain from spelling out entirely). I haven't spoken to him, but I know he switched to 125s (or I think) and doesn't seem to be as strong this year. HD might be another one. But, again, I haven't spoken to those guys directly. Like you said, SM seems to be way stronger with 125s. I even remember a few years ago at Duluth, where the top Powerslide guy on 125s didn't win (I don't believe). I think one of the issues with 125s is that they are way faster in practice - when you're doing TT type stuff, but you have to be stronger (and have much better technique) to get the same results in racing. Just thinking out loud. If you look at SH, he finished one placement higher last year on 110s, but maybe you were just stronger this year - that's the impression I got from hearing his race recap.
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Old July 27th, 2017, 09:19 PM   #117
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Yeah, that's my observations and thoughts too. Another person that stands out is KD (I'll refrain from spelling out entirely). I haven't spoken to him, but I know he switched to 125s (or I think) and doesn't seem to be as strong this year. HD might be another one. But, again, I haven't spoken to those guys directly. Like you said, SM seems to be way stronger with 125s. I even remember a few years ago at Duluth, where the top Powerslide guy on 125s didn't win (I don't believe). I think one of the issues with 125s is that they are way faster in practice - when you're doing TT type stuff, but you have to be stronger (and have much better technique) to get the same results in racing. Just thinking out loud. If you look at SH, he finished one placement higher last year on 110s, but maybe you were just stronger this year - that's the impression I got from hearing his race recap.
Racing is so much more than who the strongest person is. My friend (and former elite national champ in road cycling) once told me "being the strongest guy in a race is not 'race strategy'." I think SH skated the strongest race. He may have been the most fit guy, even above Stelly. The problem was, he didn't let Stelly burn any matches. When Steve or I attacked, Stelly was never required to chase. Steffen chased us down every time, and Stelly got a free ride in the draft. It was similar last year when Jeff won. I threw a hail mary and wasn't strong enough to hold it. Steffen did the work to chase me back while Jeff got a free ride. It was VERY impressive how strong Steffen skated both years, but his strength may have actually cost him the win both times. I'm not trying to take anything away from Jeff or Stelly. We all know that both of those guys are world class athletes. They are both a league above me. But, the fun thing about racing is that somebody who is a little weaker (like me) can still pull out an upset on race day if they race smart. Stelly has a gift of being really strong but also race-savvy. It wasn't like he was lazy, and that's why he didn't take the reigns and chase Steve and I. He just didn't have to, and he knew it. Why spend your own energy in a race if somebody else is volunteering to do it for you?


I haven't talked to KD or HD about wheels either. I think last time i raced KD he was on 125 matters in the rain, and that didn't work out well. He seemed to be off his normal game in Chicago, but I don't know how much he's skating. It could be that 125s aren't helping, but I'm not sure. I'm fully expecting him to be super-hero strong at St Paul like he normally is. With him and SH both saying they would be there, it's going to be another really tough race.
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Old July 28th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #118
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Racing is so much more than who the strongest person is. My friend (and former elite national champ in road cycling) once told me "being the strongest guy in a race is not 'race strategy'." I think SH skated the strongest race. He may have been the most fit guy, even above Stelly. The problem was, he didn't let Stelly burn any matches. When Steve or I attacked, Stelly was never required to chase. Steffen chased us down every time, and Stelly got a free ride in the draft. It was similar last year when Jeff won. I threw a hail mary and wasn't strong enough to hold it. Steffen did the work to chase me back while Jeff got a free ride. It was VERY impressive how strong Steffen skated both years, but his strength may have actually cost him the win both times. I'm not trying to take anything away from Jeff or Stelly. We all know that both of those guys are world class athletes. They are both a league above me. But, the fun thing about racing is that somebody who is a little weaker (like me) can still pull out an upset on race day if they race smart. Stelly has a gift of being really strong but also race-savvy. It wasn't like he was lazy, and that's why he didn't take the reigns and chase Steve and I. He just didn't have to, and he knew it. Why spend your own energy in a race if somebody else is volunteering to do it for you?


I haven't talked to KD or HD about wheels either. I think last time i raced KD he was on 125 matters in the rain, and that didn't work out well. He seemed to be off his normal game in Chicago, but I don't know how much he's skating. It could be that 125s aren't helping, but I'm not sure. I'm fully expecting him to be super-hero strong at St Paul like he normally is. With him and SH both saying they would be there, it's going to be another really tough race.

That's Stelly. In just about every final at IDN. He started in the back and just sat there till he felt like moving up.

Oh and Stelly was wearing the 125's at IDN but couldn't find the sweet spot for mounting his frame, so he went back to 110's. Also. Francesca Pasquerella will only wear 125's when she's not trying for World team.
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Old July 28th, 2017, 03:00 PM   #119
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I think 110s would die if FIRS dropped the wheel size restriction.
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Old July 28th, 2017, 03:26 PM   #120
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I think 110s would die if FIRS dropped the wheel size restriction.
Really? You may be right. I think they would die outdoors...they pretty much already have. If you look at race pictures now, almost everyone is on 125s. But, indoors, I don't see people making the switch.

This forum doesn't get a lot of conversation anymore, so it's interesting to debate, even if one side of the debate isn't as strong. So, that's why I keep jumping in. If you study cycling equipment, there is video after video or review after review on why one size wheel is better than the other (specifically with mtb). There is some legitimate testing going on. For skating, there isn't much of that. A few people jump in every now and then and give their opinion, but it doesn't seem like anyone (or a group) has done any substantial testing. I guess you could say all of the top pros have probably done their own in practice, which is why everyone has switched to 125s...and thus the overwhelming evidence points to 125s being significantly faster.

I need to go back and look at my data from a few years ago. I think I was doing 20 mile skates approximately 2 mins faster on 125s. But, again, who knows if the conditions were the same (as far as wind speed, etc) or if I was just more rested when I did the TTs on 125s. My level of testing wasn't that scientific.

I would be curious to know if the times at WIC events have gotten faster. I haven't paid any attention to the results or times this year. But, if anyone knows, it would be interesting to see if the skaters are getting faster now that everyone has made the jump to 125s
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