DA45 Noobs: Pivot Pins and Initial Setup

[Armadillo]

Originally Posted by Hyper_Nova

Thanks so much, that is awesome advice, explained in a way I understand! I am experimenting with different washers and cushions, and I think I'm getting there. I cut a pair of purples in half and use them instead of washers now, which seems to work. I'm okay with stability and all, but maybe it will put more pressure on the king pin, since I'm not using retainers (on top of the barrels) now?

Compared to washers (or nothing), retainers tend to cause MORE force to build up as the truck swings out to the max, so replacing them with metal or nylon washers (or just going bare cushion) will likely cause the kingpin to see less overall stress.

However, in addition to the stress from the turning action, there is also a lot of lateral stress from the floor on the trucks that must be transferred through the cushions onto the kingpin and plate. The lips of the upper and lower truck cups will grip and push the cushion sideways to drive its ID against the OD of the kingpin. Eliminating the upper retainer should NOT increase the amount of the truck's lateral movement pressure to the point where it would hit the kingpin.

Be aware though that, especially with the soft Blue Super Cushions, they will become deformed over time and the hole may become enlarged or oval shaped from carrying the lateral truck loads. It is a good idea to inspect them periodically. If they show signs of excess looseness in their fit to the kingpin, then replace them.
The same is true for vertical deformation, and over time the Super Cushions will deform and shorten, more quickly as the amount they are PRE-squished goes up. This means that the pivot pin may also need to be shortened up a bit to match the gradual height compression deformation of the upper barrel cushions over time.

-Armadillo

[RIC0]

Great thread for a new DA45 owner, although I don't feel like I'm having much trouble besides the slight wobble if up on my toes.

My pivot pins are screwed all the way in and I have 4 threads showing on my kingpin.

Guess I'll address the pivot pins tonight and leave the rest alone and test out this weekend.

[RIC0]

So with the pivot pin seated properly the truck should rest on top of the cusion and not sit an angle is that correct??

This is NOT the case with my invaders and I'm wondering if I need to make the pivot pin longer so that the truck sits evenly on the cushion before adding the second cushion and tightening it??

[HK47]

The way I've done them is that the kingpin is in the middle of the hole in the truck (when I have the cones off) - but when everything is on and tightened up it'll move, so you have to bring the pivots in a bit from that point.

If the pivot pins are too long, you'll feel it (the skates won't want to go in a straight line, but not scarily so), so just bring them back in 'till you feel comfortable.

Because I run tighter at the front than back I did more fiddling with my front pivot pins ... really happy I put in the effort now, though!

[pennydreadful]

Sorry to resurrect an old (but good) thread, but I've got these darned pivot pins screwed down as hard as they will go on one boot.
Still, I cannot get a "give" with them to test if they are in the right position.

I've got purple cushions and kingpins ~3 threads showing. The other boot is different and the pivot pins have a good few mm of possible adjustment in them. I'm assuming this is because the kingpins are slightly different lengths? That's the only other variable I can think of...


So right now I'm skating my short-as-possible pivot pins and hoping they're ok. It's hard to tell if there's a "wobble" because I'm so new and have nothing to compare them against (is that wobble the skates, or is it me??)

I just don't want to find out I've busted something on them in a few months when I could have done something about it!

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Sorry to resurrect an old (but good) thread, but I've got these darned pivot pins screwed down as hard as they will go on one boot.
Still, I cannot get a "give" with them to test if they are in the right position.

I've got purple cushions and kingpins ~3 threads showing. The other boot is different and the pivot pins have a good few mm of possible adjustment in them. I'm assuming this is because the kingpins are slightly different lengths? That's the only other variable I can think of...


So right now I'm skating my short-as-possible pivot pins and hoping they're ok. It's hard to tell if there's a "wobble" because I'm so new and have nothing to compare them against (is that wobble the skates, or is it me??)

I just don't want to find out I've busted something on them in a few months when I could have done something about it!

Having them short is not quite as bad as having them long, but having them right is best. The Pivot Pin Neutral Point detailed in the thread, is a better way of making sure that the pins are set very close to correct BEFORE you put your cone cushion or king pin nut on.

In brief, with the king pin nut and cone cushion off, look down from the top of the king pin and see if it is centered in the middle of the hole of the truck. If a pivot pin is long, the side of the truck nearer the pivot pin will be close to the king pin, not centered. If the pivot pin is short, the side of the truck farthest from the pivot pin will be nearer the king pin, not centered. But when the pivot pin is the right length, the king pin will appear dead center of the hole in the truck, with the truck resting on the barrel cushion, pivot pin in its' cup. Now put on the cone and king pin nut on and you should be in good adjustment. If you crank your cushions down a bit tighter, you MAY need to shorten just a bit. But in any case, this method is a great way of making sure that all the pivot pins are set the same to start with, and will already be the right length, or VERY close, and you won't need man hands to check it.

[pennydreadful]

Thankyou, I did read the OP, but for some reason putting it that way has just made more sense to me!!

...

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Thankyou, I did read the OP, but for some reason putting it that way has just made more sense to me!!

You're welcome.

[dvw]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I've got purple cushions and kingpins ~3 threads showing. The other boot is different and the pivot pins have a good few mm of possible adjustment in them. I'm assuming this is because the kingpins are slightly different lengths? That's the only other variable I can think of...

You missed one. You have the action cranked down too hard. if you need three threads showimg, you should go to the next harder cushion. In your case, you're already on purple, and I would not advocate going to red.

Instead, work on getting that action loosened up. Loosen it up a quarter turn and go skate for 20 minutes. Then repeat. When the adjuster nut is flush with the end of the kingpin, switch to a yellow cone and tighten it back down. Repeat. Don't say you can't or that its too unstable. Fact is yes you can, but you have to earn it. I'm 6'2" 220 lbs and my skates are on all blue with the adjuster nut flush. And sometimes that's not enough. If I can, you can.

if you don't get the action loosened up, you will have wasted your money on that plate.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by dvw

if you don't get the action loosened up, you will have wasted your money on that plate.

I am on red, and I am out-turning everyone on the floor on a regular basis. Tell me again why it is a waste?

I also have a painful dead spot on my left ankle. So if I am skating forward, instead of my normal backward, the extra snap back is needed if I am going forward crossing over, or going fast. My ankle is limited in the support it can provide.

Blue cushions isn't the only way to skate DA45.

[dvw]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

I am on red, and I am out-turning everyone on the floor on a regular basis. Tell me again why it is a waste?

Out-turning everyone else isn't hard if they're on art skates and brown buddies.

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

I also have a painful dead spot on my left ankle. So if I am skating forward, instead of my normal backward, the extra snap back is needed if I am going forward crossing over, or going fast. My ankle is limited in the support it can provide.

Well then you should stick with it since you have a special need.

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Blue cushions isn't the only way to skate DA45.

Maybe not, but it's right dang fun!

[pennydreadful]

Umm, if it's just that I've got them down too tight, then why are they different?

Maybe you're right though, I don't know exactly why I wanted Invaders. Probably bc I had 2 major problems with my borrowed skates- bendy plates and zero turn. And I didn't want vixens.

I might look into swapping the plate. I haven't made up my mind yet. Plus, I'm stoney broke right now. ;_;

[Salamanda]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Umm, if it's just that I've got them down too tight, then why are they different?

Maybe you're right though, I don't know exactly why I wanted Invaders. Probably bc I had 2 major problems with my borrowed skates- bendy plates and zero turn. And I didn't want vixens.

I might look into swapping the plate. I haven't made up my mind yet. Plus, I'm stoney broke right now. ;_;

I think you are over thinking it. Go by feel, not how many threads are showing. Give your trucks a wiggle, if they all have about the same amount of movement then skate them. If you are happy with how they skate then all good, if not then fiddle until you are. Are you unhappy with your Invaders and how they skate?

[dvw]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Umm, if it's just that I've got them down too tight, then why are they different?

Not uncommon at all. I see it frequently on DA45's, and especially on Invaders. Those are sand cast and hand finished, and you're likely seeing production tolerances at work. Same thing with the trucks. It's a little pesky but not really a problem.

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Maybe you're right though, I don't know exactly why I wanted Invaders. Probably bc I had 2 major problems with my borrowed skates- bendy plates and zero turn. And I didn't want vixens.

Two very common reasons - and good ones - for upgrading.

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I might look into swapping the plate. I haven't made up my mind yet. Plus, I'm stoney broke right now. ;_;

Don't you give up. Loosen up that suspension and explore all you can do on those plates.

Originally Posted by Salamanda

I think you are over thinking it. Go by feel, not how many threads are showing. Give your trucks a wiggle, if they all have about the same amount of movement then skate them. If you are happy with how they skate then all good, if not then fiddle until you are. Are you unhappy with your Invaders and how they skate?

Salamanda FTW.

[Salamanda]

I also never test my pivot pin length by pushing down on the truck. I can never seem to notice any if at all movement short or long. Instead I played around with lengthening and shortening the pins and noticing how it felt when the pin bottomed out in the cup and how it felt when it was too short. If its too short you can feel the pin making a "chock chock" kind of sound/feel when you wiggle the trucks back and forth in your hands. And you can feel when the pin hits the bottom of the cup and becomes harder to screw in when you lengthen it.
When I'm resetting my pins I shorten the pin until it's making the aforementioned chocking, then I lengthen it until I feel it bottom out in the cup. I then shorten it ever so slightly, so the pin is just making contact with the cup. I tighten up the locknuts and done.
When I first got adjustable pivot plates it took me ages to set the pin, now it takes about a minute a pin. Play around with lengthening and shortening the pins and how they feel in your hands and you'll soon figure it out.

[dvw]

Originally Posted by Salamanda

And you can feel when the pin hits the bottom of the cup and becomes harder to screw in when you lengthen it.
When I'm resetting my pins I shorten the pin until it's making the aforementioned chocking, then I lengthen it until I feel it bottom out in the cup.

Precisely. Adjusting pivots is not brain science, it's defintately a feel thing. And it doesn't take long at all to get the feel. Fiddle with it some and your fingers will tell you.

[pennydreadful]

I like how they skate. I love the way they turn. Sometimes they are a bit too much for me to control and sometimes they decide to go off in their own direction, or throw me on my ass. Those times as I lay winded I do think maybe I should have started on something else!

I actually don't think I could part with them. The only reason I worry about what I'm doing with the pins is because I'm attached to them already!

[dvw]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

I like how they skate. I love the way they turn. Sometimes they are a bit too much for me to control and sometimes they decide to go off in their own direction, or throw me on my ass. Those times as I lay winded I do think maybe I should have started on something else!

Yep, they'll do that. But if you'll work a little, you can get that under control. And once you do, you'll be able to open it up a little more and a little more, and you'll wonder how you ever skated any other way.

I say those things with such conviction because it's the path I've travelled. I run 'em short and I run 'em soft, and anything else just feels funny. I didn't get there overnight, but I did get there and haven't looked back.

[ursle]

Originally Posted by Salamanda

I also never test my pivot pin length by pushing down on the truck. I can never seem to notice any if at all movement short or long. Instead I played around with lengthening and shortening the pins and noticing how it felt when the pin bottomed out in the cup and how it felt when it was too short.

Being comfortable with the adjustment process is half the battle.
I use the adjustment to get the hanger to sit squarely(plumb) on the cushion(upper) with weight(simulated), I feel it(the angle that the hanger leans on the cushion) changes under load and I want a perfect fit between the hanger and cushion, as the pivot pin is fine threaded adjustments are easily watched, a full turn of the pivot is all of 1-2 mm.